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Annie

A Broad Gauge Timber Goods Shed?

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I've just blown next month's hobby budget by buying this drawing from Ebay.  To my eyes it's a Broad Gauge timber built goods shed, but the drawing itself gives no details as to where it was built or even a date.  It's plainly old and definitely pre-grouping so with any information about  real pre-1900 GWR buildings being thin on the ground I purchased it.  Eventually I hope to have the drawing high resolution scanned and I'll make it available to anyone who wants a digital copy.

 

2EmYxx6.jpg

 

ZBSb4kn.jpg

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You might compare your drawing with the broad gauge goods shed at the GWS site at Didcot? I bet there are tons of images on Google? :)

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

You might compare your drawing with the broad gauge goods shed at the GWS site at Didcot? I bet there are tons of images on Google? :)

Sorry. I should have said broad gauge - standard gauge, c.1850, transfer shed! Compare the internal images of the timber framing with your drawings :)

Edited by Paul H Vigor
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Annie, what a wonderful drawing. I do not know of a picture good enough to show any exact match, I'm afraid. Is the drawing dated, as that could narrow it down?

 

I believe this was a standard design at the time, thus doubtless built with variations (!), and not confined to Broad Gauge. Also quite common were versions where two tracks passed through the shed, so the rail entrances were wider.

 

The Berks & Hants line (1847) had at least one or two very similar. Theale, from what little I can see, and Aldermaston, which had a very well photographed example (see below).  The Berks & Hants had those lovely Italianate chalet station buildings. My money's on the Berks & Hants.

 

Similar sheds seem to crop up in Gloucestershire/the Cotswolds; Aldestrop, Charlbury, Chipping Campden, Evesham, Shipton for Burford. The South Wales Railway appeared to have similar types from what I have glimpsed.

 

1986415844_3-Aldermaston07.jpg.2c8691c43a43f8ed7d5813df10bdb977.jpg

506557206_3-Aldermaston04.jpg.ceef7c88cf2275443645bec407136688.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Annie, what a wonderful drawing. I do not know of a picture good enough to show any exact match, I'm afraid. Is the drawing dated, as that could narrow it down?

 

I believe this was a standard design at the time, thus doubtless built with variations (!), and not confined to Broad Gauge. Also quite common were versions where two tracks passed through the shed, so the rail entrances were wider.

 

The Berks & Hants line (1847) had at least one or two very similar. Theale, from what little I can see, and Aldermaston, which had a very well photographed example (see below).  The Berks & Hants had those lovely Italianate chalet station buildings. My money's on the Berks & Hants.

 

Similar sheds seem to crop up in Gloucestershire/the Cotswolds; Aldestrop, Charlbury, Chipping Campden, Evesham, Shipton for Burford. The South Wales Railway appeared to have similar types from what I have glimpsed.

 

1986415844_3-Aldermaston07.jpg.2c8691c43a43f8ed7d5813df10bdb977.jpg

506557206_3-Aldermaston04.jpg.ceef7c88cf2275443645bec407136688.jpg

 

The angular entrance for rail traffic and the rounded/arched entrance for road traffic?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Many of the BG goods sheds had a similar arrangement where the road and rail access were both in the same end elevation. There and Aldermaston as you say were very much of that type, as was the Didcot transfer shed.

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2 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Sorry. I should have said broad gauge - standard gauge, c.1850, transfer shed! Compare the internal images of the timber framing with your drawings :)

No need to apologise Paul I understood what you meant in your original post.

The internal framing does look similar, but I'd need to have a closer look to refresh my memory.

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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Annie, what a wonderful drawing. I do not know of a picture good enough to show any exact match, I'm afraid. Is the drawing dated, as that could narrow it down?

 

I believe this was a standard design at the time, thus doubtless built with variations (!), and not confined to Broad Gauge. Also quite common were versions where two tracks passed through the shed, so the rail entrances were wider.

 

The Berks & Hants line (1847) had at least one or two very similar. Theale, from what little I can see, and Aldermaston, which had a very well photographed example (see below).  The Berks & Hants had those lovely Italianate chalet station buildings. My money's on the Berks & Hants.

 

Similar sheds seem to crop up in Gloucestershire/the Cotswolds; Aldestrop, Charlbury, Chipping Campden, Evesham, Shipton for Burford. The South Wales Railway appeared to have similar types from what I have glimpsed.

 

1986415844_3-Aldermaston07.jpg.2c8691c43a43f8ed7d5813df10bdb977.jpg

506557206_3-Aldermaston04.jpg.ceef7c88cf2275443645bec407136688.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately the drawing doesn't have any date on it James.  There are some very small notations at the top of the drawing, but only having the auction image I can't make out what they are.

 

Thank you for the photos of the goods shed at Aldermaston and yes it does look to be very much the same species of goods shed.  I haven't seen an angular entrance like that before on a Broad Gauge era goods shed, but then I'm no expert.  There are rails shown on the drawing at the angular entrance so at least I know which entrance is which.

 

I've notified the BGS about the drawing and offered them a copy, but I haven't heard anything back from them yet.

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1 hour ago, Annie said:

No need to apologise Paul I understood what you meant in your original post.

The internal framing does look similar, but I'd need to have a closer look to refresh my memory.

:) The internal framework visible in the Didcot building may reflect the style of timbering employed by the GWR in big wooden structures, such as goods sheds and transfer sheds, in the c.1850s? Traditionally, wooden Victorian buildings were often described as 'temporary' structures - in theory they would eventually be replaced by permanent stone or brick buildings. Some so-called 'temporary' wooden Victorian buildings are still standing today! Corrugated iron sheets on timber frames became the new 'temporary' building?

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The interior framework at Aldermaston, which is the closest example to yours that I can view in any detail (like yours, but without the side windows), can be seen in these pictures ... 

 

1416057242_3-Aldermaston03.jpg.5d318746a82962855cb570b7649b2c36.jpg

1345177619_3-Alderma-Copy.jpg.6a824eda152633bfd646a348a4a95d8c.jpg

 

 

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Thanks for these pictures James.  I can now see clearly that the angle framed door is exactly the same as in the drawing.  The lack of side windows is no more I think than a variation on a standard design and the internal framing uses 'X' braces in a similar way.

 

I have heard back from the BGS and they believe I have a Broad Gauge drawing and have said 'Yes please' to me sending them a copy once I can get the drawing scanned.

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I've had a notification from Hermes that the parcel that contains the Broad Gauge goods shed drawing is now in their system.    Should I be worried?

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41 minutes ago, Annie said:

I've had a notification from Hermes that the parcel that contains the Broad Gauge goods shed drawing is now in their system.    Should I be worried?

They actually never lost or damaged a parcel I sent via them to be fair. Only problem was the driver who came to collect the parcels woke me up at 7.30am once!

Simon

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They lost/stole/destroyed almost the entire Midland Record.  No effective recourse. They are [email protected] I'm sure that you'll be fine!

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A lot of Ebay traders seem to use them with no other option available which makes getting anything to New Zealand bl00dy expensive.  I very rarely buy anything from Ebay now, but this rare drawing made the exception to the rule.

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Here's a howdy do ...

 

I stick to my initial view that yours is probably an example from the Berks & Hants.  The round-top windows on the sides and the goods office clearly allude to the architecture of the original Berks and Hants stations, and I have not seen them on examples elsewhere on the system. l have now glimpsed examples of these sheds at Midgham, as well as Theale and Aldermaston.

 

Here is a much earlier view of Aldermaston (note the siding to the left is still laid to baulk road).

 

It shows the round-top windows on the side, as does your drawing, suggesting that later re-cladding omitted them. 

 

However, the arch over the track is rounded!

 

Could your drawing represent a stage in between this photograph and the later photographs I posted earlier, with a loading gauge-related change to the rail side openings?  

 

1316154731_3-Aldermaston16.jpg.73ccd90cc76526db428cb10fecfd60d2.jpg

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With most of my research having been in Cornwall I have to confess my complete ignorance of the Berks & Hants James.  I do have to agree though than my drawing seems to be from after loading gauge changes were made.  The drawing being undated isn't a lot of help, but it does look like it was a modification to an earlier drawing.  Plainly the later cladding replacement at Aldermaston was done with economy in mind with the windows being removed.  Must've made it a dark place to work in though.

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1 minute ago, Annie said:

With most of my research having been in Cornwall I have to confess my complete ignorance of the Berks & Hants James.  I do have to agree though than my drawing seems to be from after loading gauge changes were made.  The drawing being undated isn't a lot of help, but it does look like it was a modification to an earlier drawing.  Plainly the later cladding replacement at Aldermaston was done with economy in mind with the windows being removed.  Must've made it a dark place to work in though.

 

Similar sheds elsewhere on the system have rectangular windows; on the sides where these are found, and to the goods office.

 

If there were round-top windows anywhere other than the Berks and Hants, I have yet to see them.  As I say, they nod to the windows on the masonry Berks & Hants stations: 

 

1254497034_3-Aldermaston00.jpg.874770ed97a2df394dcfa12e5e50cbbd.jpg

 

Probably the best surviving example of these Brunel Italianate chalet style stations is Mortimer on the Basigstoke line, which is the subject of a kit by Pola now sold by Gaugemaster.  Despite being to HO, it was used successfully on Rowington for Shrewley in 4mil.

 

428317634_DSC_0358-Copy.JPG.3779651e69d3f9117f476e801bf2c8a1.JPG

 

Extracts from Wiki:

 

The Berks and Hants Railway comprised two railway lines built simultaneously by the Great Western Railway (GWR) south and west from Reading in an attempt to keep the London and South Western Railway (LSWR) out of the area that it considered to be its territory in England.

 

One line ran from Reading to Hungerford and was entirely in the county of Berkshire ("Berks"). A later Berks and Hants Extension Railway continued the Hungerford line to Devizes in Wiltshire. Since 1906 part of this route has formed the direct Reading to Taunton Line used by trains to Devon and Cornwall. The term 'Berks and Hants Line' has been used intermittently by officials and passengers for the whole route from Reading to Taunton even though it does not enter Hampshire and most was never built by the Berks and Hants Railway.

 

The second line ran from Reading to Basingstoke and terminated adjacent to the LSWR station there.

 

...

 

[In 1845] an Act of Parliament passed to allow the construction of the GWR-backed Berks and Hants Railway from Reading to both Basingstoke and Hungerford. The capital for this company was put forward in the names of GWR directors, and the following year a new Act of Parliament saw the Berks and Hants formally absorbed into the larger company.

 

The first section to open was that to Hungerford on 21 December 1847. The line to Basingstoke left the Hungerford line at Southcote Junction on the outskirts of Reading, and was opened nearly a year later on 1 November 1848.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Here's a howdy do ...

 

I stick to my initial view that yours is probably an example from the Berks & Hants.  The round-top windows on the sides and the goods office clearly allude to the architecture of the original Berks and Hants stations, and I have not seen them on examples elsewhere on the system. l have now glimpsed examples of these sheds at Midgham, as well as Theale and Aldermaston.

 

Here is a much earlier view of Aldermaston (note the siding to the left is still laid to baulk road).

 

It shows the round-top windows on the side, as does your drawing, suggesting that later re-cladding omitted them. 

 

However, the arch over the track is rounded!

 

Could your drawing represent a stage in between this photograph and the later photographs I posted earlier, with a loading gauge-related change to the rail side openings?  

 

1316154731_3-Aldermaston16.jpg.73ccd90cc76526db428cb10fecfd60d2.jpg

 

Addendum

 

The covered wagon bottom right is in 1904 livery and the running lines are not ballasted over the sleepers, a practice that, on other railways, seems to have gone out of fashion around 1910.

 

These features show that converted broad gauge track on baulk could linger for quite some time off the running lines.

 

Otherwise, we must seek to date any change to the loading gauge that might explain the alteration the rail entrances to the shed that took place post the above photograph. 

 

EDIT: Look carefully at the image below and you can see where the two pairs of round-top-windows have been boarded over.

 

506557206_3-Aldermaston04.jpg.ceef7c88cf2275443645bec407136688.jpg.49b44745f843dfa8c4a50dfcf12e4bf9.jpg

 

Look at the interior.  The two panels, either side of a main upright, that have only singe diagonal beams are where the windows were let in.  Compare with your drawing to confirm.

 

 1345177619_3-Alderma-Copy.jpg.6a824eda152633bfd646a348a4a95d8c.jpg.829e445798711c9b4654de8f346ec13d.jpg

 

2EmYxx6.jpg.77b4626d85b789d539c4a5fc3eb0bfaa.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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I agree with your analysis James.  With a 1904 liveried van being in the same photo as a round topped rail entrance that would have to place my drawing as being post 1904 at the earliest.  Should I manage to go ahead and commision someone to make a model of the goods shed I would seriously consider instructing them to make the rail entrance the same as the road entrance.

As to the windows my model would most definitely have them.  The difference in the internal framing of  Aldermaston's goods shed however clearly points to the windows having been removed and boarded over.  Whether this was something that was applied to all surviving Berks & Hants timber goods sheds or any other timber goods sheds I wouldn't know, but then with it likely to have happened after WW1 it doesn't concern me much since I have no interest at all in modelling that time period.

 

A few years ago now I had the pleasure of meeting an elderly ex GWR employee who had a wonderful Gauge 1 railway in his garden.  He told me that baulk type track could still be seen in sidings in out of the way places for a long time well after WW1 so it doesn't surprise me to see it still in place at Aldermaston.

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Just a thought but did the middle panels need less cross bracing for structural reasons than the end ones. Windows then being inserted there as it was the easiest place to put them if required. Rather than the lack of the second cross brace being because of the windows.

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46 minutes ago, Trog said:

Just a thought but did the middle panels need less cross bracing for structural reasons than the end ones. Windows then being inserted there as it was the easiest place to put them if required. Rather than the lack of the second cross brace being because of the windows.

 

Could be, but, then, there is diagonal cross-bracing to the lower sides throughout the length. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Annie said:

I agree with your analysis James.  With a 1904 liveried van being in the same photo as a round topped rail entrance that would have to place my drawing as being post 1904 at the earliest.  Should I manage to go ahead and commision someone to make a model of the goods shed I would seriously consider instructing them to make the rail entrance the same as the road entrance.

As to the windows my model would most definitely have them.  The difference in the internal framing of  Aldermaston's goods shed however clearly points to the windows having been removed and boarded over.  Whether this was something that was applied to all surviving Berks & Hants timber goods sheds or any other timber goods sheds I wouldn't know, but then with it likely to have happened after WW1 it doesn't concern me much since I have no interest at all in modelling that time period.

 

A few years ago now I had the pleasure of meeting an elderly ex GWR employee who had a wonderful Gauge 1 railway in his garden.  He told me that baulk type track could still be seen in sidings in out of the way places for a long time well after WW1 so it doesn't surprise me to see it still in place at Aldermaston.

 

Yes, I've often thought of modelling a Berks & Hants station. I would want the same condition for the goods shed as you for my preferred period. I would be keen to establish the date the round-arches were changed, as that would give the upper end of the modelled period. I'm guessing no earlier than 1910s, and, if so, that would be fine.

 

My interest (in narrow/standard gauge era) centres around 1900 (red wagons, red frames, Dean and Armstrong designs to the fore), with another peak of interest around 1906-7, where livery changes, Churchward designs and improvements to the network alters the appearance of the railway.

 

Another location I'd like to do would be Ivybridge, c.1900, with the new stone viaduct and track re-alignment, and the old wooden Brunel chalet station somewhat set back as a consequence, but with the SG track still baulk road.

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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Posted (edited)

Interesting. Its a shame the scale isn't visible.

There are two vertical lines at ground level on the elevation which one would think were rail positions,

 

[Later. I found and I think managed to read the scale. The drawing below appears to be comprehensively wrong and all my conclusions struck through below utterly invalid!!]

 

but when I line them up against GWR loading gauge drawings (narrow and broad) they don't seem to make any sense.  I think its possible that the drawing represents filling in the end of an ex broad gauge shed for standard gauge vehicles, but that's highly speculative without a scale. 

The attached assumes that the cross beam is about the top of the post WW1 GWR loading gauge (green)  which is a very big and unjustified assumption. Orange is a GWR broad gauge loading gauge. This sort of comparison would be much better done against the structure gauges rather than the loading gauges, but alas I do not have them.

gshed..jpg

Edited by JimC
post is utterly incorrect!!
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I like your thoughts James.  The Dean and Armstrong era is what I prefer too, but pushed back into the late Broad Gauge era.  Something on the Berks & Hants might yet figure in one of my projects, but I have to get the Cornwall Railway done and out of the way first.

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