A Broad Gauge Timber Goods Shed?

[Annie]

1 hour ago, JimC said:

Interesting. Its a shame the scale isn't visible. There are two vertical lines at ground level on the elevation which one would think were rail positions, but when I line them up against GWR loading gauge drawings (narrow and broad) they don't seem to make any sense.  I think its possible that the drawing represents filling in the end of an ex broad gauge shed for standard gauge vehicles, but that's highly speculative without a scale. 

The attached assumes that the cross beam is about the top of the post WW1 GWR loading gauge (green)  which is a very big and unjustified assumption. Orange is a GWR broad gauge loading gauge. This sort of comparison would be much better done against the structure gauges rather than the loading gauges, but alas I do not have them.

That's an interesting theory Jim, but what I find myself wondering is why did the the goods sheds in Cornwall retain their Broad Gauge rail entrances (16ft X 14ft) unaltered until they were finally demolished by government sanctioned vandals during the BR error.  The Broad Gauge loading gauge was taller and wider than the standard gauge one, but if you look at a Broad Gauge covered van of the period it was only 10ft 9-10 inches tall so the goods shed entrances were very generous indeed.  Any modern horror that the railways of a later era might find could zip through a Broad Gauge rail entrance without any problems at all.  All of which makes me wonder why the Berks & Hants goods sheds needed to be modified in the first place.

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Annie
more to say

[Compound2632]

Compare Morton-in-Marsh; windows in the same position as the drawing but square-headed. 

 

The brick and stone built goods sheds on the Bristol & Gloucester were of similar pattern, but with mildly gothic arches; e.g. Yate.

[Annie]

It was the timber goods sheds with square topped windows that I was more familiar with Stephen.  But again at Morton-in-Marsh the presence of a very un-GWR era lorry in company with a round topped rail entrance makes me wonder why the Berks & Hants goods sheds had their rail entrances altered.

 

All the wonderful variations certainly make research interesting.  Yate goods shed is certainly worthy of further research, but I'm trying my hardest not to get myself deflected away from the Berks & Hants at the moment.

[Edwardian]

OK, you are good to at least 1920 with the rounded arches on the track side at Aldermaston.

 

I did two things today that I should have done before:

 

1.  Looked up Aldermaston in Vol. 2 of R H Clark's Historical Survey of Selected Great Western Stations.

 

2.  Consulted Mike the Stationmaster.

 

Mike's central thesis is that the entrances appears unrelated to any change in the loading gauge.  The change was probably just a question of renewal. 

 

Turning to Clark, he states that the signal box was replaced in 1920, the new 'box "near the site of the old".  I think my sepia picture shows the old 'box. 

 

 

There is a a plan in Clark dated 1928.  The baulk road siding is gone, but the cattle dock and the course of the loading dock is clearly shown.

 

Clark also has a picture showing the later canopy extensions on the up platform and the platform extension.  These involved taking up the baulk road siding and are shown on the 1928 plan.  I think the picture shows the new 'box.  The shed retains both the side windows and a rounded entrance for the track side. 

 

Mike says the Middleton Press volume has a 1919 picture in which the shed has rounded arches on the track side. 

 

So, the shed still had the rounded arches after the 'box was replaced (in 1920), and after the up platform was extended and given awnings, which may have been around the same time.

 

For those of us interested in the pre-Great war scene, I think we can safely conclude that  the round arches remained throughout our period of interest.

[Annie]

Yay!  

 

That is the best news James.  So my drawing is post 1920, but all is not lost since it's simple enough to change the vandalised  altered rail entrance back to how it should be.  Plainly whoever did the alteration drawing was instructed by their superiors to do it on the cheap and not worry about aesthetics.

 

Since I regard the 1920s as the dawn of modernism and therefore should be shunned by all sensible people I don't give a toss for what happened then and thereafter with regard to Britain's railways.

 

Please give Mike the Stationmaster my thanks for helping with solving this mystery.

 

It looks like I need to add R H Clark's Historical Survey of Selected Great Western Stations to my book shopping list.  Between the exchange rate with the New Zealand dollar and the hideous cost of postage I need to be cautious though about how many books I buy each month if I don't want end up eating nothing but bananas and cereal.

 

Now I just need to find someone with 3D modelling skills to make me a digital goods shed based on this drawing.

[Edwardian]

37 minutes ago, Annie said:

Yay!  

 

It looks like I need to add R H Clark's Historical Survey of Selected Great Western Stations to my book shopping list.  Between the exchange rate with the New Zealand dollar and the hideous cost of postage I need to be cautious though about how many books I buy each month if I don't want end up eating nothing but bananas and cereal.

 

Now I just need to find someone with 3D modelling skills to make me a digital goods shed based on this drawing.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Historical-Survey-Selected-Western-Stations/dp/0860930157

[Annie]

I found a slightly tatty copy at a second hand bookshop for £10 with a very humane postal charge James.  I normally use AbeBooks to find railway books as I've found them to be better than Amazon.

 

Edit:  I've now purchased volumes one and two which has absolutely busted my book budget.  Volumes three and four seem to be hand written on gold edged vellum so are well out of my price range.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Annie
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[richbrummitt]

James, 

 

You are correct that the signal box in your image with the SG baulk track is the pre 1920 one. How many more photographs of Aldermaston do you have that I have not yet seen? I’ve the Middleton vol. History of the Berks and Hants. Stations vol. 2 The goods shed had previously eluded me except in Britain from above photography. Are the images on here full size from what you have or did you reduce them? If the latter is it possible to send me the full size ones?

 

Sorry for thread drift. 
 

Annie,

 

Please could I have a copy of the goods shed drawing once scanned? Assuming I get around to the model (the laser cut baseboards for which have been stored in various places in the house for a year now) then I will be useful to have such to work from, along with the pictures. 
 

Thanks. 

 

[Annie]

29 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Annie,

 

Please could I have a copy of the goods shed drawing once scanned? Assuming I get around to the model (the laser cut baseboards for which have been stored in various places in the house for a year now) then I will be useful to have such to work from, along with the pictures. 
 

Thanks. 

You most certainly can.  My intention is to make the drawing available to all who want a copy.

 

You can find some of the Aldermaston photos here; -  https://www.railwaystationphotographs.co.uk/index.asp?function=search

 

Edit:  Rats I can't link to the page. Typing Aldermaston into the search box will take you there though.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Annie
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[JimC]

19 hours ago, Annie said:

I like your thoughts James.  The Dean and Armstrong era is what I prefer too, but pushed back into the late Broad Gauge era.  Something on the Berks & Hants might yet figure in one of my projects, but I have to get the Cornwall Railway done and out of the way first.

I have heard that the loading gauge used on the Cornwall railway was significantly smaller than the main GWR broad gauge one. This must presumably have been height, since the rail to platform clearance must have been standard to within an inch or too, and as you've noted broad gauge carriages and wagons seem only rarely to have penetrated the upper reaches of the gauge. What one might call the eaves height is more significant, and it wasn't all that high on the GWR broad gauge. 

If you have loading or structure gauges for the Cornwall or anything else I would be delighted to see them.

 

Incidentally I think I've succeeded in adequately reading the scale on the larger drawing. Assuming I'm correct then here is the shed opening against the gauges. The two marks do indeed specify the position of standard guage rails, but the platform to wagon clearance is much greater than I imagined. As you can see the opening is sufficiently large for broad gauge stock.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by JimC

[Annie]

18 hours ago, JimC said:

If you have loading or structure gauges for the Cornwall or anything else I would be delighted to see them.

I'm afraid I don't Jim, but if I find anything I'll let you know.

 

Edit: Did you see the Cornwall Railway goods shed drawing I posted at the top of this page?

Edited August 3, 2020 by Annie
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[Edwardian]

On the loading gauge issue, there are perhaps two points.

 

First, the revised track side openings do not appear to be any higher than the original.

 

Second, Mike the Stationmaster is aware of no change in the loading gauge that might account for the alterations to the arches.  He pointed me to a 1921 loading gauge diagram showing a height of 13'6" above rail height.  He further pointed out that in the late Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries, the GW had already built some goods vehicles to a height of 13' above rails.

 

This suggests to him, as it does to me, that the loading gauge issue is a red herring. As I mentioned before, he puts the change down to (rather more utilitarian) renewals of the structure. 

 

Height-wise, the BG openings were, as you point out, Annie, rather generous and, as it turned out, future-proof.

[Annie]

Yes james, the one thing the old Broad Gauge lines don't have is clearance issues when it comes to standard gauge rolling stock.  I was so busy with trying to think of a more complicated issue causing the rail entrance to be altered that I forgot about the more obvious one, - a cheap and nasty renewal of the goods shed's cladding.

 

In many ways Aldermaston station  is a layout builders dream since it has road overbridges at each end perfect for hiding fiddle yards behind.  The NLS unfortunately doesn't have any 1870s-1880s 25 inch to the mile OS maps for Aldermaston just a 1900 one which isn't a lot of use apart from the post 19th century OS maps showing less detail than the 19th century ones.  But comparing it to the 1870s 6 inch to the mile map does show that the station layout didn't change at all after vandalism the conversion to standard gauge.  I wouldn't know what happened at Aldermaston after WW1 and I don't much care.

 

What I want to know though, - is what is a Hag Pit?

Edit: The 1873 OS map makes it very clear.  It's a large water holding pond for the canal. The 'revised' late 1890s OS map shows hardly any detail of this function all.  In fact in many of its details its a very poor relation to the 1873 map.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Annie
can't spell for toffee

[Caley Jim]

20 minutes ago, Annie said:

What I want to know though, - is what is a Hag Pit?

It's not A Hag Pit, but 'Hag Pit'.  As always, Google is your friend!  

 

Jim

[Annie]

Thank you Jim.  So it's a place name rather than a description.  Still with such a name I couldn't help thinking of Jenny Greenteeth lurking somewhere in its depths.

[richbrummitt]

On 03/08/2020 at 17:02, Annie said:

 

In many ways Aldermaston station  is a layout builders dream since it has road overbridges at each end perfect for hiding fiddle yards behind.  The NLS unfortunately doesn't have any 1870s-1880s 25 inch to the mile OS maps for Aldermaston just a 1900 one which isn't a lot of use apart from the post 19th century OS maps showing less detail than the 19th century ones.  But comparing it to the 1870s 6 inch to the mile map does show that the station layout didn't change at all after vandalism the conversion to standard gauge.  I wouldn't know what happened at Aldermaston after WW1 and I don't much care.

 

 

Yes to the overbridges but the traffic patterns on this route were not the short express trains found all over the rest of the system. Much of what travelled over the route doesn’t stop here and the many fast and excursion trains have train lengths in double figures of coaches, which means the train is longer than the layout if the latter is confined to the short stretch between the overbridges. The local population was actually in decline in the early 20th century too. That is if you do things to prototype. I’m still tempted though and have a print out at full size rolled up waiting for some buildings mocking up to see whether I believe it could work as a model. Hence the interest in the goods shed drawings. 
 

Iirc There are some pictures in The History of the Berks and Hants Railway thought to be taken in 1874 that are similar to the pictures depicting baulk SG track earlier in this thread. 
 

[JimC]

2 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Much of what travelled over the route doesn’t stop here and the many fast and... 

So perfect for a tail chasing oval then [grin] 

[Annie]

18 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Yes to the overbridges but the traffic patterns on this route were not the short express trains found all over the rest of the system. Much of what travelled over the route doesn’t stop here and the many fast and excursion trains have train lengths in double figures of coaches, which means the train is longer than the layout if the latter is confined to the short stretch between the overbridges. The local population was actually in decline in the early 20th century too. That is if you do things to prototype. I’m still tempted though and have a print out at full size rolled up waiting for some buildings mocking up to see whether I believe it could work as a model. Hence the interest in the goods shed drawings. 
 

Iirc There are some pictures in The History of the Berks and Hants Railway thought to be taken in 1874 that are similar to the pictures depicting baulk SG track earlier in this thread. 
 

It's certainly an interesting country station especially with the canal nearby, but I would imagine including that would make a 4mm scale model fairly large.  I'm in deep with my Broad Gauge Cornwall project so I don't want to get distracted, but it's something I would like to come back to later.

Predictably I would be wanting to model Aldermaston in the 1870s so possibly the area wouldn't have felt the effects of population decline yet.

 

Having purchased a lot of books just lately I'm resisting buying anything on the Berks & Hants at the moment though I might have a look at that next month.

[Annie]

Disaster!  I have just had notification from Hermes that the goods shed drawing will be delivered on the 14th of August to an address in Fradley Park.  I do not live in Fradley Park I live in a rural town in New Zealand thousands of miles away from Fradley Park.   I have just sent an angry email to the vendor telling them to sort it out.

 

I knew this would go wrong the moment that I found out Hermes was involved in the drawing's delivery.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Annie

[Edwardian]

12 hours ago, Annie said:

Disaster!  I have just had notification from Hermes that the goods shed drawing will be delivered on the 14th of August to an address in Fradley Park.  I do not live in Fradley Park I live in a rural town in New Zealand thousands of miles away from Fradley Park.   I have just sent an angry email to the vendor telling them to sort it out.

 

I knew this would go wrong the moment that I found out Hermes was involved in the drawing's delivery.

 

I am so sorry to hear this.  I shall keep my fingers firmly crossed for you.

 

Meantime, nil desperandum!

[Annie]

I have just heard from the vendor and everything is sorted out now.  Apparently Hermes was only taking the drawing to the depot, - in Fradley Park, - that would be handling the overseas part of it's journey to New Zealand and the drawing has now arrived there and is being sent on its way.  It's supposed to arrive sometime on the 18th and hopefully it will arrive safe and sound.

 

The confusion, - or rather my confusion arose, - when I was sent tracking information that seemed to make no sense at all.  Now I know what's going on my blood pressure can return to normal and I can wind back my urge to panic.  Perhaps I need a more peaceful hobby like watching grass grow.

[Edwardian]

Glad to hear all is not lost!

 

All being well it will yet be a case of Patience Rewarded

[richbrummitt]

On 06/08/2020 at 23:44, JimC said:

So perfect for a tail chasing oval then [grin] 

that’s part of a plan. The end boards are built. I should get my own thread at this point but I wasn’t ready for that with other events and demands on my time this year.  

[Annie]

The drawing has arrived!  Properly packed and safe and sound it's in perfect condition; - or as in perfect condition as any 80+ year old drawing might be that had been slightly carelessly stored for part of its life.  A bit rumpled, a bit crinkled, but perfectly legible.

Now I just need to find someone to scan it and copy it for me to a USB key.

[simonmcp]

5 hours ago, Annie said:

The drawing has arrived!  Properly packed and safe and sound it's in perfect condition; - or as in perfect condition as any 80+ year old drawing might be that had been slightly carelessly stored for part of its life.  A bit rumpled, a bit crinkled, but perfectly legible.

Now I just need to find someone to scan it and copy it for me to a USB key.

I don't know if you have any commercial printers or an Architect's near by but they would likely have at least an A3 (420mm X 297mm) scanner and or could 'stitch' the separate parts of the scan back into one piece for you. Simon