Met & Widened Lines Around mid-1930s

[MarshLane]

Hi guys,

I'll start by acknowledging that my London Underground history is not the best. I am looking to learn and understand a little more about the motive power, train type and types of workings that would have been seen on the Met/Circle and adjacent Widened Lines between Kings Cross Met and Farringdon around the mid-1930s.

 

If I have understood things correctly...

- By this point, the GWR were still operating over the route with goods traffic to Farringdon and meat traffic to Smithfields, mainly using 97xx condensing panniers.  I seem to recall reading somewhere there were that there were several trains in the early hours of meat working into Smithfields, but I don't have my GWR book to hand at the moment.

- LNER were operating with N1s and N2s on passenger services to Moorgate, along with J52s to Farringdon goods.

- LMS were using their 0-6-0T and possibly Jinty's on similar goods traffic, no passenger workings from the Midland tho?

- And the Met were using 1913 and 1923 built stock on electric passenger services, along with the electric Bo-Bo locos on freight to Vine Street Goods (Farringdon again!).  Did the Met have their own wagons, or was it common user fleet from the Big Four?  I think Met steam was basically banished on this section by this time?

 

Does the above sound right, have I missed anything or mis-understood? 

 

Did the Met traffic stick to Met lines and all other on the Widened Lines? I am presuming the latter did not have 3rd/4th rail electrification?

 

Any help, as ever is appreciated.

Rich

[Nick Holliday]

According to Wikipedia and the LMS Journal, LMS passenger services into Moorgate continued through dieselisation to electrification, and the Fowler Class 3 2-6-2T was the favoured loco, being suitably equipped with condensing pipes. Flickr offers this:

I also seem to recall also a familiar photo with what I think is an 0-4-4T at the head of a train at a bombed out Moorgate.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

There is an informative article on freight workings on hte Underground here (pdf): https://www.lurs.org.uk/02%20jan%2017%20FREIGHT%20ON%20THE%20UNDERGROUND.pdf

 

 

There is a thread about through GWR passenger workings here (electic-hauled and using the Cirle Line tracks to Liverpool Street):

The Met of course ran their own electric loco-hauled trains to Moorgate/Liverpool Street/Aldgate with dreadnaught carriages (6 or 7 seem to have been the norm). Watford/Rickmansworth services would have been T Stock. I don't know what worked Uxbridge services or Hammersmith and City or Circle Line.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Jeremy C

[bécasse]

These lines formed part of the fiercely independent Metropolitan Railway until the formation of the LPTB in the mid-1930s and the story of its electric rolling stock is complex. The LPTB urgently refurbished some of it for use on the Inner Circle and H&C lines but you really need to read a specialist book on the subject to get anything like the full picture. It wasn't that every train was different, it just seemed like that! The Met had a couple of Pullman cars which were included in certain rush hour loco-hauled workings. District Railway/Line workings from Putney Bridge to Edgware Road were extended to Moorgate on the Saturday afternoons of the Easter, Whit and August bank holiday weekends adding to the variety of stock which could be seen, and, of course, the District worked part of the Inner Circle service, the Inner Circle using District Railway tracks between Mark Lane and South Kensington.

 

The widened lines were electrified from east of Euston Square to Moorgate eastbound and from Moorgate as far as Farringdon westbound. King's Cross Met station shared the site of what latterly became King's Cross Thameslink station, the current station was only opened in 1940.

 

In addition to N1s and N2s on passenger services to Moorgate off the GN, there were LMS trains worked by condensing 2-6-2Ts off the Midland. N1s also shared the working of GN-line goods through to the SR via Snow Hill with J52s. There were goods to the SR off the Midland too but these were far less frequent than the GN-line ones and I am not sure what worked them, probably Jinties.

 

 

[MarshLane]

7 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

According to Wikipedia and the LMS Journal, LMS passenger services into Moorgate continued through dieselisation to electrification, and the Fowler Class 3 2-6-2T was the favoured loco, being suitably equipped with condensing pipes. Flickr offers this:

I also seem to recall also a familiar photo with what I think is an 0-4-4T at the head of a train at a bombed out Moorgate.

 

HI Nick,

What a wonderful picture of Moorgate!  You mentioned the LMS Journal there - I have most of the Midland Record, and a few LMS Journal - but do you happen to know what issue the LMS Moorgate service is referenced in at all?

 

 

7 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

There is an informative article on freight workings on hte Underground here (pdf): https://www.lurs.org.uk/02%20jan%2017%20FREIGHT%20ON%20THE%20UNDERGROUND.pdf

 

There is a thread about through GWR passenger workings here (electic-hauled and using the Cirle Line tracks to Liverpool Street):

The Met of course ran their own electric loco-hauled trains to Moorgate/Liverpool Street/Aldgate with dreadnaught carriages (6 or 7 seem to have been the norm). Watford/Rickmansworth services would have been T Stock. I don't know what worked Uxbridge services or Hammersmith and City or Circle Line.

 

Jeremy,

Thanks for the link to the PDF article, fascinating read. I'll take a look at that thread, hadn't come across that previously. My lack of underground knowledge coming in here, Watford/Richmansworth services went to the Moorgate/Aldgate?  Where would the electric loco-hauled services from Moorgate/Liv St/Aldgate run through to?

 

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

These lines formed part of the fiercely independent Metropolitan Railway until the formation of the LPTB in the mid-1930s and the story of its electric rolling stock is complex. The LPTB urgently refurbished some of it for use on the Inner Circle and H&C lines but you really need to read a specialist book on the subject to get anything like the full picture. It wasn't that every train was different, it just seemed like that! The Met had a couple of Pullman cars which were included in certain rush hour loco-hauled workings. District Railway/Line workings from Putney Bridge to Edgware Road were extended to Moorgate on the Saturday afternoons of the Easter, Whit and August bank holiday weekends adding to the variety of stock which could be seen, and, of course, the District worked part of the Inner Circle service, the Inner Circle using District Railway tracks between Mark Lane and South Kensington.

 

The widened lines were electrified from east of Euston Square to Moorgate eastbound and from Moorgate as far as Farringdon westbound. King's Cross Met station shared the site of what latterly became King's Cross Thameslink station, the current station was only opened in 1940.

 

In addition to N1s and N2s on passenger services to Moorgate off the GN, there were LMS trains worked by condensing 2-6-2Ts off the Midland. N1s also shared the working of GN-line goods through to the SR via Snow Hill with J52s. There were goods to the SR off the Midland too but these were far less frequent than the GN-line ones and I am not sure what worked them, probably Jinties.

 

Thanks for the detailed response.  Do you happen to know of any 'specialist books' that are worth reading/acquiring on this topic?  I presume the Metropolitan/Inner Circle & H&C services all used the same electrified routes?

 

Rich

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

3 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

Jeremy,

Thanks for the link to the PDF article, fascinating read. I'll take a look at that thread, hadn't come across that previously. My lack of underground knowledge coming in here, Watford/Richmansworth services went to the Moorgate/Aldgate?  Where would the electric loco-hauled services from Moorgate/Liv St/Aldgate run through to?

In the period you are looking at, the trains would mostly have come from Aylesbury, but before 1936 a few would be from Verney Junction. There were also a handful of workings to other destinations such as Amersham, Wendover and Chesham. These would all have had locomotive swaps at Rickmansworth. There were also one or two loco-hauleds that went only to Watford or Rickmansworth, but the primary reason for having locomotive-hauled carriages was to enable through trains to destinations that weren't electrified. I cannot remember off the top of my head whether Metropolitan main line trains only ran east of Baker Street in peak hours in the era you are looking at; I suspect they did.

 

Harsig's site is an invauable resource for London Underground track plans and signalling diagrams, which might not be of great interest to you in themselves, but the Widened Lines always seems to me to be particularly complicated, especially around Kings Cross and Farringdon, and being able to look at a plan helps a lot in getting my head round it. The Metropolitan page is here: http://www.harsig.org/Metropolitan.php and I particularly recommend the 1933 Metropolitan Railway plan for your era. The eastbound-only link between Chalton Street Junction (not named in this plan, but it is between Euston Square and Kings Cross)) and the Widened Lines was removed in 1935 (it only got put in in 1926). Apparently it was electrified, as @bécasse mentions, but I don't recall seeing any pictures of the Widened Lines with conductor rails, and I don't know what trains used this lnk (except, presumably, GWR goods trains to Smithfield, but these were steam-hauled).

[MarshLane]

28 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

Harsig's site is an invauable resource for London Underground track plans and signalling diagrams, which might not be of great interest to you in themselves, but the Widened Lines always seems to me to be particularly complicated, especially around Kings Cross and Farringdon, and being able to look at a plan helps a lot in getting my head round it. The Metropolitan page is here: http://www.harsig.org/Metropolitan.php and I particularly recommend the 1933 Metropolitan Railway plan for your era. The eastbound-only link between Chalton Street Junction (not named in this plan, but it is between Euston Square and Kings Cross)) and the Widened Lines was removed in 1935 (it only got put in in 1926). Apparently it was electrified, as @bécasse mentions, but I don't recall seeing any pictures of the Widened Lines with conductor rails, and I don't know what trains used this lnk (except, presumably, GWR goods trains to Smithfield, but these were steam-hauled).

 

Jeremy,

Thanks for that.  As you may have gathered, this is all background research for a possible larger KX layout and I had been using an National Library's of Scotland 1895 London Map of the King's Cross area, that showed what seemed to be an odd connection between the Met and Widened Lines at the Eastern end of King's Cross Met station.

 

 

You reference to Harsig's website and the 1933 diagram shows that this 'all lines link' did not exist in 1933, which will certainly ease things a bit.  That map also puts into place for me where Vine Street was in relation to Farringdon and how the GWR gained access to Smithfield.

 

The background info on the passenger workings is useful too. In summary, the through services beyond the electrified network would have used the Metropolitan Electrics, while those within the network would have been units, 1911 T stock and later 1923 stock too presumable.  I need to see if there are any timetable details for the Met and Circle lines somewhere, thats one of the next areas to look at.  

 

The PDF article gave rough train lengths no the freight workings, which was really useful. I presume most of these workings would have been box vans, with the odd open wagon as needed.

[pete_mcfarlane]

There are a couple of books called 'Steam on the Widened lines' which are worth getting hold of (if you can find them for non-silly prices - they are slim A5 sized volumes):

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/STEAM-WIDENED-LINES-Northern-Successors/dp/0947699252/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=steam+on+the+widened+lines&qid=1596206790&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.co.uk/STEAM-WIDENED-LINES-Southern-Companies/dp/0947699287/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=steam+on+the+widened+lines&qid=1596206790&sr=8-1

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1 hour ago, MarshLane said:

I had been using an National Library's of Scotland 1895 London Map of the King's Cross area, that showed what seemed to be an odd connection between the Met and Widened Lines at the Eastern end of King's Cross Met station.

The connection is shown in the 1903 RCH junction plan: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Camden,_Hampstead_Road,_Kentish_Town,_King's_Cross,_Maiden_Lane_%26_St_Pancras_Blackfriars,_Snow_Hill_%26_West_Street_RJD_84.jpg. The junction at Farringdon is also shown, but the RCH plan confusingly omits showing the Widenend Lines and the Metropolitan crossing over each other between Kings Cross and Farringdon. My guess, and it is a guess, is that this crossover was removed whem the link from Chalton Street Junction was put in in 1926.

 

Incidentally, if it is Kings Cross you are modelling and you decide to set it before this link line was removed, then only the eastbound Widenend Line would have been be electrified (but try to find a photograph; as I said earlier, I don't think I have ever seen one showing this) and used by trains from the Metropolitan main line and Great Western, while westbound trains would have used the Circle Line rails. However I don't recall reading anything to suggest that many Metropolitan main line trains terminated at Moorgate, or that any Great Western trains did. Since Moorgate also had two bays off the Circle Line (one shared with the Widened Lines), it was also possible for Metropolitan trains terminating at Moorgate not to use the Widened Lines at all, although the absence of a loco siding would have made this diffiuclt for loco-hauled trains.

[MarshLane]

Interesting. That sounds logical that when the 1926 link when in, there would be no need to cross between the two.  I suspect the link could have been electrified, as going off Harsig's plan, there was a signal before the LMS junction.  If that short section was electrified, then it would have allowed them an easy way to retrieve an electric unit that had been misrouted.  As you say with no pictorial evidence that the eastbound widened line was electrified, I wonder if the 1926 link (and the early crossover) was more to move GWR freight out off the Met, which would have saved conflicting moves at Farringdon and given easier access into Smithfields?

 

If everything goes ahead, then then plan is mid-1930s - as A4s out of the cross will be a firm requirement, but I thought rather than just letting the Moorgate service vanish into a hidden siding and return loop, lets do something with it that brings Underground, LMS and GWR traction into play too.  The 9700s were built in 1933, so that brings them into the mix on meat traffic.  

 

Primary focus (aside from the Met T stock and an couple of Electric Bo-Bos with Dreadnought stock - still need to investigate what stock was used on H&C and Circle workings) will be the LNER N1/N2 and J52s, as I don't think the J50s ventured down until BR days.  Hopefully the layout will also provide an insight into operations 90 years ago - now  beyond living memory for anyone that worked there - so keeping a very small part of history alive and documented.  Thats the aim anyway!

[bécasse]

I have seen a photograph of the western end of Farringdon which shows both the eastbound widened line with 3rd and 4th rails and that part of the long crossover between the westbound widened line and the westbound Met with 3rd and 4th rails. I believe that the normal use of the electrified widened lines was by Met main line trains terminating at Moorgate, quite possibly peak-hour through Stanmore trains before that branch was transferred to the Bakerloo Line as that would explain why the link was taken out in 1935.

 

One of the best books on the subject of the Met's electric stock is J.Graeme Bruce's Steam to Silver, published by LT (his employers!). It may be half-a-century old but it is well illustrated, principally using official photographs, and JGB certainly knew his subject. It is obviously long out-of-print but shouldn't be too difficult to find secondhand.

[MarshLane]

Managed to get my GWR Goods Services books off the top shelf of the bookcase tonight. According to them the GWR employed 669 staff at Smithfield in 1929, which gives some idea of the volume of traffic handled. It goes on to add that general traffic was handled here, in addition to fish, fruit, poultry, provisions and vegetables. There was an hydraulic lift, for goods rather than wagons, to the central meat market above. Out of Smithfield, the GWR had 127 horses, 148 horse-drawn carts and 11 motor carts in 1926.

 

it comments that between the wars, eight general goods trains left Smithfield every night between 7pm and 12.48am, and in 1939 there were 16 light engine or goods working each day between Acton Yard and Smithfield. Plus a further five trains a night, between Old Oak (Acton on Monday’s) and Smithfield, the first arriving at the market at 12.o8am.

 

There is also a photograph of 9702 in 1938 arriving at Farringdon and crossing from the ‘Inner Circle’ to the ‘Widen Lines’ to gain access to Smithfield’s. Which would seem to override my thought that GWR services could have used the 1926 link west of Kings Cross.

[MarshLane]

51 minutes ago, bécasse said:

I have seen a photograph of the western end of Farringdon which shows both the eastbound widened line with 3rd and 4th rails and that part of the long crossover between the westbound widened line and the westbound Met with 3rd and 4th rails. I believe that the normal use of the electrified widened lines was by Met main line trains terminating at Moorgate, quite possibly peak-hour through Stanmore trains before that branch was transferred to the Bakerloo Line as that would explain why the link was taken out in 1935..

That could well be right, as the 1939 picture at the western end of Farringdon of the 9700, clearly shows no 3rd or 4th rails on the widened lines.

 

51 minutes ago, bécasse said:

One of the best books on the subject of the Met's electric stock is J.Graeme Bruce's Steam to Silver, published by LT (his employers!). It may be half-a-century old but it is well illustrated, principally using official photographs, and JGB certainly knew his subject. It is obviously long out-of-print but shouldn't be too difficult to find secondhand.

Thanks, I’ll try and find a copy!

 

[bécasse]

I meant to mention, but forgot, that in the 1930s all trains would have been 1st and 3rd class. 1st class accommodation only disappeared from Metropolitan and District Line trains, and from the main line companies' suburban trains, in 1940.

[MarshLane]

On 31/07/2020 at 20:57, bécasse said:

One of the best books on the subject of the Met's electric stock is J.Graeme Bruce's Steam to Silver, published by LT (his employers!). It may be half-a-century old but it is well illustrated, principally using official photographs, and JGB certainly knew his subject. It is obviously long out-of-print but shouldn't be too difficult to find secondhand.

 

Thanks for the heads up on this.  My copy arrived this morning, wonderful book.  An initial flick through has raised a couple of queries I think, but I'll post more once I have inwardly digested.  But thanks - for anyone interested in Underground stock, it is defiantly well worth acquiring!

 

Rich

[Lord of Narnia]

For Met rolling stock try the Snowdon book we’ll worth it.

 

In the 1930s the Met had a good variety of rolling stock.

 

MW stock 1927-1932 in 7-8 car trains with a motor car at each end. Some had flush steel panels (1932) and some mouldings (1929-30) 

MV stock three trains from 1927 which vacuum brakes and Dreadnought coaches converted to MW stock in 1935 (available from Radley Models)

 

Circle Stock 1913-1921 (mostly) renovated in 5 car trains for the Circle service (also available through Radley)

 

W stock MW motor cars with Ashbury/Bogie stock trailers.

 

V stock 7-8 car trains with 1904-1913 saloon stock cars.

 

VT stock 7-8 car trains with MW motor cars with 1904-1913 trailers.

 

M/N stock 6-8 car all electric bogie stock trains.

 

Dreadnought steam stock in 5/6/7 coach formations although some short trains were operated in the slack hours of 3 or 4 coaches with a Met-Vik loco.

 

1906 Saloon stock on the Hammersmith and City service in 6 car trains supplemented with 4 District designed trains from 1936 known as M stock.

 

[PenrithBeacon]

https://www.gnrsociety.com/home-page/shop/farringdon/

[MarshLane]

7 hours ago, Lord of Narnia said:

For Met rolling stock try the Snowdon book we’ll worth it.

 

Dreadnought steam stock in 5/6/7 coach formations although some short trains were operated in the slack hours of 3 or 4 coaches with a Met-Vik loco.

 

 

 

Thanks for that, its really useful.  I'll try and search out the Snowdon book.  Presumably the longer formations were Met-Vik's too that this period? I think steam had gone from the passenger services on the underground bit by this date hadn't it?

 

5 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

https://www.gnrsociety.com/home-page/shop/farringdon/

 

Thanks David,

I keep thinking about that book. I really need to join the Society too - its just another one to be member of!!

 

Rich

[PenrithBeacon]

You can order it without being a member. I'm not I bought mine at a show (remember them?)

Cheers

[Jeremy Cumberland]

3 hours ago, MarshLane said:

Presumably the longer formations were Met-Vik's too that this period? I think steam had gone from the passenger services on the underground bit by this date hadn't it?

Yes. I recall reading that steam was banned on the Met south of Finchley Road from an early date (1907 perhaps), but the ban could not have been absolute because LT used panner tanks on Widened Lines engineering trains in the 1960s, and doubtless the LPTB did too in the period you are interested in, the Widened Lines not being electrified (except as mentioned earlier in this thread).

 

I doubt the short off-peak locomotive-hauled trains of three or four carriages, which are well-attested to, went beyond Baker Street.

 

Also, I wonder whether steam locomotives were ever used on the Great Western passenger trains. GW goods trains were steam-hauled because Smithfield Goods was not electrified, and there is plenty of evidence for steam/electric locomotive changes on passenger trains at Paddington, but I don't recall reading anything to say that all Great Western passenger trains were electric-hauled.

[Engineer]

In response to the previous observations, I don't have perfect answers to the matters raised - archives would be the best sources.  I don't know of any hard source to clarify whether any of the GWR City trains were steam-hauled - maybe the archives of GWR or Metropolitan railways would clarify business policy. 

 

Metropolitan working timetables provide for electric haulage of all the inbound and outbound GWR trains.  Referring to samples of timetables in 1919, 1930 and 1939 there were around seven GWR trains in and out, daily, mostlly reversing at Liverpool Street, one reversing at Aldgate in 1930 and two in 1939.  Practically, however, locomotives would need to be tripcock-fitted, and would need to be able to lift their train in peak conditions to maintain performance within a 25-to-30-trains per hour peak service and the latter requirement was probablly best achieved with electric traction.  Metropolitan terminus working relied on swift turnaround and an incoming electric loco on a GWR train would take over a subsequent train almost certainly to a different Metropolitan destination.  Handling a GWR steam loco in the midst of Metropolitan terminus working would be impractical, although at Aldgate not impossible in extreme emergency.

 

Early 1930s Metropolitan Working Timetables have a few examples of shortened 'Steam Stock' trains [3 coaches] working through to the City during middle day and evening off-peaks, but definitely not a very frequent occurrence given that City terminators were not numerous at those times of day.  The 1930s off-peak Metropolitan and H&C services would run with 3- and 4- vehicle electric trains, too.

 

I'd suggest one other source -  Underground News, the journal of the London Underground Railway Society. 

[Nearholmer]

GWR passenger trains were hauled by Met electric locos from Paddington (Bishops Road) eastwards from the date of electrification. There is a thread about Bishop's Road on here somewhere, containing photos and links to photos. Light locos, running coupled together, were sent down from Neasden to Bishop's Road in the morning, and came back in the evening.

[Engineer]

Also, there are examples of light loco movements returning after the last outbound morning GWR trains and locos arriving to pick up the evening trains.  Analysing 1919 timetables, however, it looks like two locomotives remained at Bishop's Road during the middle of the day and took over the two pm inbound trains.

[Nearholmer]

Here's the relevant thread https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107223-bishops-road-paddington-what-do-we-know/&tab=comments#comment-2167863

 

[chris p bacon]

8 hours ago, MarshLane said:

I keep thinking about that book. I really need to join the Society too - its just another one to be member of!!

 

Rich

 

Don't worry, we take anyone. And just like Royston Vasey.....You'll never leave..

 

6 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

You can order it without being a member. I'm not I bought mine at a show (remember them?)

Cheers

 

As David says you can make a purchase of most publications without being a member, there are discounts on publications for members should you be interested in anything else.

Like all societies we welcome new members so if you are interested you can apply through the website shop (before purchasing any publications) and yes I am the membership secretary hence the sales patter