Minories in 7mm?

[Guest WM183]

Upon thinking about things further, I believe I can be happy with 2 coach trains. A stable of small engines like an Ivatt tank, Jinty, and perhaps a bbiiig class 4 Fowler to visit sometime suits me fine. A smaller station in a middle sized town can still be busy! Building stock and structures and detailing scenes is my favourite part of the hobby,  so I'd like to stay with 7mm. I can deal with 2 coaches and 4 wagons + brake van as my train lengths. So not a minories, per se, but a station that handles enough goods traffic and parcels to keep things busy, and which can allow me to build some non railway stuff too. 

[Sturminster_Newton]

Work out the storage fiddling yard space add in length the most compact points to serve the fiddling.

 

Then work out whether your terminus will be dead end with shunting pilot or use a release road working.

 

Will the Terminus have a parcels handling service or just passenger handling?

 

Add in the length of pointwork for the throat hope fully you will end up with a total measurement for the fiddling and operating aspects and it will fit in the space available. Will it fit if you use O-Radius 2, O-Radius 1 or O-Radius 0 and Radius 2 pointwork?

 

If not, would it fit in the space on the diagonal?  Often layouts hug a perimeter wall when the longer operating length is across the room...

 

Could the line layout be built as a Circle,  0 or a U?

 

Smerty-Two minium radius is circa 768mm if 7lbs of 0-4-0/0-6-0 16mm live steamer and a collection of 4-wheel wagons will, and I know Dapol 4-wheel wagons and Vans traverse it admittedly with buffers compressed and distended but they go around slowly. So I set my ruling radius as R0 (around 800mm rad). Whilst R2 is Gotham Curve was tight, docks and factories were often tighter.

 

Not ideal but in a non scenic easy access area feasible.

 

As long as you can live with the compromise then everything is to play for.

 

Better to have tried and failed than never have tried at all.

[Guest WM183]

I would like to have a parcel / CCT dock as well as a goods shed, coal dealer, and passenger platform. I think I can fit all that in a terminus! I am imagining perhaps the station has its own pilot and shunting loco; seems like a good place for a Jinty?

I will likely be handlaying my track, but curves for pointwork aside, there won't be much curvature; enough over the length of the layout to avoid the "Straight lines" effect that's easy to do with model railways. The biggest engine I intend to run is a class 4 4-6-0 with the smaller tender, or a 2-6-4t. I think I can manage that and 2 coach trains.

I have got hold of a copy of David Jenkinson's "Carriage Modelling Made Easy" and will be putting the lessons within to use to build a brake composite, I think. I can get bogies from Ian Kirk and save myself quite a bit of work, so I will have a go. 

[woodenhead]

27 minutes ago, WM183 said:

I would like to have a parcel / CCT dock as well as a goods shed, coal dealer, and passenger platform. I think I can fit all that in a terminus! I am imagining perhaps the station has its own pilot and shunting loco; seems like a good place for a Jinty?

I will likely be handlaying my track, but curves for pointwork aside, there won't be much curvature; enough over the length of the layout to avoid the "Straight lines" effect that's easy to do with model railways. The biggest engine I intend to run is a class 4 4-6-0 with the smaller tender, or a 2-6-4t. I think I can manage that and 2 coach trains.

I have got hold of a copy of David Jenkinson's "Carriage Modelling Made Easy" and will be putting the lessons within to use to build a brake composite, I think. I can get bogies from Ian Kirk and save myself quite a bit of work, so I will have a go. 

Just remember of your 14 foot available space - you've now allocated about 9 foot to 1 Class 4 and 2 coaches - that's leaves 5 foot for the crossover between Fiddleyard and Scenic area and any points, each point will be about 16 inches.

 

I think you need to get some software and plan something on their so you can see exactly what you will get in your space, I note you have 4 foot along another wall and you may need to find a way to incorporate that on a curve to eek out more scenic area to build your station in.

[Regularity]

Have a search on Ian Futer’s Victoria Street. It’s not double track, but could be, if you are up to building a scissors crossover.

Such a layout breaks town into three units, each about 4’6” long.

One for the platforms, one for the pointwork, and one for the fiddle yard. You would have a little bit of space left, too - no bad thing when trying to set up a layout in a confined space.

[Marshall5]

My layout, formerly known as 'Newcastle N.B.' is one of Ian Futer's "3 Y points on a plank" layouts.  The scenic section consists of 3 four foot boards with a 5'6" sector plate fiddle yard on the end.  The platform roads can accommodate a 2-6-4T with two 57' carriages and a van.  Unfortunately I can only put up the 12' scenic boards in my model room/office - if I want to add the fiddle yard I have to set up the layout in the lounge.

For this reason the next layout will be limited to about 12' so I'll have to avoid putting the fiddle yard in the traditional place on the end of the scenic section.  Two layouts which used the 'kick-back' fiddle yard were Terry Booth's KESR inspired 'Dallington Road' which was only 8' long even in 7mm scale and 'Carron Road' which was 8' in 4mm scale.  I'm sure a little selective compression could reduce Carron Road to 12' in 7mm scale.  Hope the track plans below show an alternative to the 'end-on' fiddle yard.

Ray.

Dallington Rd;

 Carron Rd.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Marshall5

[Guest WM183]

I am starting to rethink 7mm, I guess. I did have in mind a fiddle yard setup quite a lot like that in Carron Rd above, though perhaps of 3 tracks. I was thinking such a layout would fit in my space?

[Karhedron]

If you are looking for compact, urban freight (or at least NPCCS) then a milk bottling plant might be a good call. Several were close to stations, notably the IMS plant at Marylebone. Dapol offer O Gauge milk tanks in a variety of liveries making this an easy type of traffic to include.

[brossard]

I like the idea of putting the fiddleyard/sector plate at the back.  It certainly saves on length.  Reaching it if the layout is against the wall may be an issue.

 

By my math, Carron Rd would be 14' long (4.3m) in 7mm.

 

The platform looks to be about 3'6" in 7mm, long enough for 2 coaches.

 

The spur at the right could hold a dairy/creamery.

 

Control using DCC can be from the front.

 

John

[Hal Nail]

It is certainly possible to build a layout in 14 foot but it really is on the small side for 7mm so less is more is a good mantra. The danger is it will just look too busy. The beauty of 7mm is the size and space: even a single wagon has enough heft and detail to be interesting on it's own. Cramming in as many features as possible kind of defeats the object for me.

[Regularity]

13 hours ago, WM183 said:

I am starting to rethink 7mm

Going to go out on a limb here, and make some observations.

 

If it is the size of the models which attracts you, then you will have to forego a complicated layout as you don’t have the space: this leads you to a compact layout with short trains and maybe pointwork replaced by the fiddle yard.

If your motivation is to have a complete layout in a given space, but with the opportunity for detailed modelling, then whilst the scale probably needs to be the largest you can accommodate, the selection of scale should be subordinate to the layout design. This leads to the maximum layout in the space, but maybe not in the “ideal” scale.

 

Your space is a given. Your available time is probably determined by other factors (also known as “life”). Similarly your financial resources available for the hobby. (Money can buy you time, for example someone else’s modelling time or RTR meaning that you don’t have to build everything. Time can replace money, if you put it to good use.)

Your skills will improve with practice and a little determination.

 

You have mentioned an interest in building, but also a liking for operations. What is it that you like building? Track? Stock? Structures and scenery? What time and money resources are available to you?

The latter point applies also to operation. It’s ok to want to have a pilot/shunting loco, or to model a suburban service where there is one more loco than trains, but do you have the money to buy all this, or the time to build it?

 

There are plenty of possible layout ideas in your space for O gauge, the question is, will they suit your needs?

[Pacific231G]

16 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

My layout, formerly known as 'Newcastle N.B.' is one of Ian Futer's "3 Y points on a plank" layouts.  The scenic section consists of 3 four foot boards with a 5'6" sector plate fiddle yard on the end.  The platform roads can accommodate a 2-6-4T with two 57' carriages and a van.  Unfortunately I can only put up the 12' scenic boards in my model room/office - if I want to add the fiddle yard I have to set up the layout in the lounge.

For this reason the next layout will be limited to about 12' so I'll have to avoid putting the fiddle yard in the traditional place on the end of the scenic section.  Two layouts which used the 'kick-back' fiddle yard were Terry Booth's KESR inspired 'Dallington Road' which was only 8' long even in 7mm scale and 'Carron Road' which was 8' in 4mm scale.  I'm sure a little selective compression could reduce Carron Road to 12' in 7mm scale.  Hope the track plans below show an alternative to the 'end-on' fiddle yard.

Ray.

Dallington Rd;

 Carron Rd.

Both good plans but for me the "incomplete" or "bitsa" terminus is fine for an exhibition layout where the public don't see the sleight of hand where a sector plate say stands in for half of the station. For a layout that you're going to operate at home though you can't hide that fiction from yourself (well I can't!) and personally I find that very unsatisfying. I can accept that trains are really arriving from and departing to a fiddle yard or cassette just outside the station but I want to carry out all the operations  of the station fully.  My own French BLT was designed to enable all the shunting operations on the station board itself but, though that means that trains don't actually have to go anywhere (rather like an Inglenook) I still find it far more satisfying if they can so usually attach a very simple fiddle yard with just a single track so that a train can arrive, do it's shunting and leave.

 

If the length for a fiddle yard, cassette, or sector plate wasn't available then I'd go for the "Piano Line" concept.  The Rev. Peter Heath, (one of the pioneers of 00n3 using TT-3 equipment) came up with the concept for a very simple layout on a five foot board in 00 many years ago  with a "Holiday Layout"  article in Railway Modeller in July 1965. It lived in the vicarage living room on top of an upright piano hence the name).

 

The basis of this is that the main line enters the terminus within the run round loop so the loop and its two headshunts can be the full length of the layout and the train length can be half the length of the layout less the length of the entrance point and whatever approach you use to get it off scene. Heath used a rather improbable tunnel- his was a very proprietary layout-  but there have been several examples with road overbridges that are far more convincing.  

You get more operating potential with an extra siding and this plan in 00 is 6ft long so could be lengthened a bit for 4 metres in 7mm scale. There's obviously no reason why the fiddle siding couldn't be a sector plate or traverser fed by kick back train storage sidings behind the station

 

 

 

Tony Collins' Goonhilly is a a very good example of a Piano pattern layout  in 7mm scale. 

 

and is just 9ft 6ins long on two boards with the split between the toes of the two back to back points.

Goonhilly's train lengths are limited but the extra length you have available would make longer trains  feasible.

This arrangement may seen unprototypical but I know of at least four metre gauge termini in France that were arranged in exactly this way, usually to enable them to be shoehorned into the courtyard of a main line station but one of them was to access a cramped quayside. The Bristol harbour railway also has something like this where the "main line" leaves the "floating harbour" between the museum and the SS Great Britain under a higher level roadbridge to run alongside the River Avon.

A harbour railway might be a good  candidate as it could justify "main line" passenger trains connecting with a ferry or something (think Lymington Pier) 

Tim Hills did a harbour station like this this with his La Planche Port based on one of my designs and it's a good layout to operate. It's six feet by one foot (plus the water in front) in H0 scale

 

I hope that's of some use.

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Guest WM183]

Thank you all so much for the continued responses. Seriously, this helps a ton!

I am leaning towards a layout with an overall Carron Rd / Piano Line vibe; platform on the left with a goods shed alongside, and perhaps 1 extra track for sorting in the goods yard. The Piano line's long passing siding also works wonderfully as a switching lead for the goods shed at the left, and for an industry at the right; a milk plant as has been mentioned, making ice cream perhaps! The fiddle yard being behind and to the right, with perhaps 3 tracks, works well also.

I have nothing but time. I have only a part time job, and my other source of income is... well. This. I do custom painting, repairs, and quite a bit of remotoring and regearing brass locos, installing DCC and headlights, what have you. I am fortunate enough that my husband's income is more than enough even without my contributions. As far as skill, I am comfortable building any kit or even scratchbuilding, locos or stock, if i need to. I do not have a lot of disposable income, but enough that a few wagon kits a month or the occassional loco kit are in my grasp.

My favorite part of the hobby by far is building and detailing freight wagons, as well as locomotives and trackside structures; signal boxes, crossing guards cabins, even little lockups and PW sheds, are a joy for me. A layout is secondary; if I am going to build all that stuff, may as well have a place to see it run! In addition, I have *terrible* eyesight. I have been nearsighted since i was 5 years old, and my prescription is a -10.5. Yes, it is THAT bad. It may get worse as I grow older ( I am in my early 40s) but 7mm seems to be the best choice given that eventuality. I love 4mm, but fear the worst if my eyes grow much worse - thankfully they havent in many years. I mean, I can fit a lot more in 4mm, and individual locos and such cost much less, and still let me detail things to my hearts content. 

So! A short platform (2 or even 1 coach if I must) is fine, if it's a concession I must make. My givens? I want to be able to run a few locos around and switch goods wagons at a couple of sidings and industries. I want scenery and structures to detail. The passenger and CCT cars are a "druther" for me, but I think I can indulge in that also.

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by WM183

[Will Crompton]

I second D9020 Nimbus' suggestion of looking at West Yorkshire termini for inspiration. I have recently happily wasted, er I mean spent time researching termini in Lancashire and Yorshire hunting for examples of termini with kick back goods yards. If you don't already know it the Disused Stations website is a great source of information, maps and pictures.

 

http://disused-stations.org.uk/

 

I also found looking at pre-grouping maps of this area useful for locating stations not yet included in the Disused Stations website. One such is Stainland and Holywell Green.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainland_and_Holywell_Green_railway_station

 

and NLS map here:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/100948172

 

There are a couple of nice pictures of this station which can be found by googling it. It seems to have been in a hilly setting and had a kick back yard. Its strikes me that a small termini with a kind of West Yorkshire small mill town in the hills vibe might suit your needs. I think you said you fancied some scenic possibilities along with the scratch building and I think this sort of setting gives some good opportunities for this - eg nice Yorkshire stone buildings, bridges and embankment retaining walls etc. Also the hilly terrain would give some scope for realistic looking view blocking in front of a fiddle yard which could be combined with a kick back yard in front perhaps. Possibly even a mill/small industry private siding as well.

[Guest WM183]

The Stainland and Holywell Green station and surrounding area looks perfect. It even has a bridge over a river/canal that would add quite a bit of scenic opportunity too, and quite a large goods facility and a couple of platforms!

[bbishop]

Amanda,

 

Two thoughts.  The David Jenkinson method does work, but buy coloured plasticard.  It is easier to see where to weld the lace doily or strip.  Cream is good.

 

Ian Hopkins built St Georges Hill, a 7mm layout that lived in a gutted grandfather clock.  His concept was to build the branch line platform and sidings; the main line was just an impression.  I once transported it in a Mark 1 Clio, the hatch was closed sufficiently to switch off the boot light but the hatch had to be tied down by string.

 

Bill

[Siberian Snooper]

Hi WM183, I was struggling to see the detail when modelling and the last time I went to the opticians I mentioned it and she prescribed x3 over my normal prescription and it helps immensely. They did take a bit of getting used to, but at least I can see what I'm mucking up.

 

 

[alant]

My previous layout Factory Lane Sidings (since sold) was freight only and only 11 foot 6 inches long. Might give you some ideas:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64437-factory-lane-sidings-minimum-space-0-gauge-layout/&tab=comments#comment-848450 

[Will Crompton]

Hi WM183. If you are still thinking along the lines of something inspired by West Yorkshire this Flickr group is worth a look.

 

https://www.flickr.com/groups/leedsrailways/pool/

 

It covers Leeds and West Yorkshire railways. It's a real mixture of images, some contemporary, some black and whites going back to the 30s etc. It also has quite a lot of shots of disused railway structures which show lots of useful detail of stonework, ironwork etc.

 

I've been working it through it backwards and came across this gem on page 160 of Bradford St Dunstans cutting. It oozes atmosphere and screams Yorkshire.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thanoz/2187724970/in/pool-leedsrailways/

[Guest WM183]

Thanks for the tips on locations in Yorkshire, folks. It helps a ton.

 

Will, that image of that train in that deep cut would look phenomenal in a smaller scale! I might try to do something with the support wall and houses at the top though...

Amanda