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Fredo

Mark 1 Ends Livery

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Hi,

Does anyone know when the vestibule ends of Mark 1’s started being painted in the same livery as the coach rather than black? If so any ideas when the same started happening to Southern Regions PMV’s?

Thanks Fred

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It depends on the workshop it was painted at - the first spay painting trails were mid 1950's. The change in paint specification in 1956 (the number of coats and thickness of the paint rather actual colour) was partly to improve durability - partly with spay painting. With spray painting (particularly air based systems) it is much easier to pain the ends the same colour as the body. I think that most BR workshops had switched by 1960, although that did not stop them paining the ends black.    

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From the Minutes of the Carriage Standards Committee (Quoted in the supplement to Parkin's MK Coaches book:

29/7/64 (Minute 3424) Eastleigh comments that the workshops will shortly be installing airless spray equipment and it is understood the work would be considerably easier if the ends of the coaches were painted the same colour as the sides. Would there be any objection? No objection was raised by the committee, but it was considered the opinion of the Director of Industrial Design should be obtained.

 

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Posted (edited)

1964. But it was relatively short lived for maroon and green. They started painting them in Corporate Blue in 1965.

 

 

PMVs. I've had a look in the Oakwood book to see if there is a mention. The only mention of ends being painted is that from June 1966 they were painted blue by airless spraying.

 

1058 and 1068 were still in red when withdrawn in 1972. So they hadn't had a repaint since at least 1956.

 

 

Quite a lot of information on BR liveries on this website.

 

https://www.bloodandcustard.org/

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport

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Hi,

So if we are using a Bachmann 39-527 as a base for a PMV and also a 39-.550Z as a base for a CCT both of which have painted ends then they are only probably suitable for 1964/5 onwards. Would you agree?

Thanks Fred

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Posted (edited)

Strictly speaking not Mk.1s, but contemporary to late ones and used with them.

The early Mk.2 FKs in green and maroon the roof colour was carried down the ends in line with the weld seam lines. The corners of the ends were either maroon or green, but the end was grey.

Edited by BernardTPM

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17 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

 

Quite a lot of information on BR liveries on this website.

 

https://www.bloodandcustard.org/

 

 

Jason

Whilst there is some very good information in the above website there are also a couple of oft-repeated errors.

It refers to Lancing carriage works describing the 'blood' of Blood & Custard as "Crimson Lake" which it wasn't - it was just Crimson which has a different BS #.  Crimson Lake is the old MR/LMS 'red' which officially became B.R. "maroon" although changes in paint technology and application produced a slightly different result.

The second blooper is in describing B.R. loco green as the same as GWR "Brunswick Green".  There was no such colour on the GWR - locos were painted in Mid Chrome Green (which has less blue) and, indeed, went on to become B.R. loco green.

FWIW the BS paint codes for B.R. "Blood" and "Maroon" are:

Crimson/Blood BS 381C 540 Crimson.

Maroon BS 381C 452 Dark Crimson.

I realise that my comments may sound pedantic but when modellers (who may well not have been born when Blood & Custard was around) read a smart looking website such as this they might take everything in it as 'gospel'.

Cheers,

Ray.

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In addition, I don't think British Railways ever used 'carmine' - the name from the start was simply 'crimson' because that's what the paint spec was.

I've read that the use of 'carmine' may have come from the railway/modelling press of the time - possibly to avoid crimson/crimson lake confusion? 

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I have another question related to the black ends. There is a radius between the end and side wall. Where exactly on that radius is the transition from black to ...

 

Michael

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Just to confuse matters, when the crimson and cream livery was launched in 1949, BR used the term 'crimson lake'. It was not the same as the LMS colour, which was close to or identical to the later BR maroon.

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