Duchess Princess Coronation De-streamlining Dates BR Numbers?

[robmcg]

Dear All,

 

I have been illustrating wartime black Stanier Duchesses based on Hornby LMS 6241 and 6243.  The latter according to Irwell lost its streamlining in 7/1949,   but most if not all were de-streamlined in 1946-7.

 

Can some kind person say whether LMS 6243 was re-numbered 46243 in streamlined form and if so did it carry a front number plate? Did any others carry BR numbers?

 

I can't seem to find much definitive on this, nor a concise list of de-streamlining dates.

 

Can anyone help?

 

Below is a pic of a s/h 6241 suitably placed in a shed scene, I cannot imagine 46243 on a plate on the front...   p.s. I think these models under-rated! This from Hattons last month,

cobwebs and dust included, runs sweetly. UKP87.

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by robmcg

[Davey]

Hi Rob,

 

There is a photograph in "The Power of the Duchesses" by David Jenkinson showing 46243 City of Lancaster in streamlined form and in wartime black livery hauling a down Glasgow train in 1948. Apparently it was the only streamlined Princess Coronation pacific to carry a BR number and did not carry a front number plate.

 

Regards,

 

Davey

[Pete the Elaner]

I built a spreadsheet of all the LMS ones (ie, not 46257 City of Salford because it was completed after nationalisation) from details I have found in various sources regarding build, livery, single/double chimney & deflectors. It is not 100% accurate because there appears to be conflicting information,

 

6241: built April 1940 as a streamliner with double chimney in LMS crimson lake

Jan 1945: Given wartime plain black

Feb 1947: Streamlined casing removed & deflectors fitted. Re-painted into 1946 black.

 

 

LMS Coronation Liveries.xlsx

Edited August 1, 2020 by Pete the Elaner
Corrected error in attachment.

[robmcg]

2 hours ago, Davey said:

Hi Rob,

 

There is a photograph in "The Power of the Duchesses" by David Jenkinson showing 46243 City of Lancaster in streamlined form and in wartime black livery hauling a down Glasgow train in 1948. Apparently it was the only streamlined Princess Coronation pacific to carry a BR number and did not carry a front number plate.

 

Regards,

 

Davey

 

Thank you Davey, that pretty much answers my question.   Much appreciated. Did 46243 still have LMS script on the tender I wonder? Or 'British Railways'?

 

edit; and it gives me licence to put up another picture... 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by robmcg
add picture

[Steamport Southport]

Wikipedia is your friend.

 

All the details are here and match the information in books from people like Jenkinson and Essery.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class

 

 

City Of Lancaster was very nearly saved. It was in a scrapyard in Wigan but the tender was scrapped and it had started to be stripped of parts.

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/LMSSteam/Stanier-Locomotives/Princess-Coronation-Class/4624046244-Built-1940/4624346244/i-wM2cFXw

 

As for what it carried on the tender when black, I think it was plain or so dirty you couldn't see. I've never seen any evidence of lettering.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwr_tam3127.htm

 

 

Jason

[LMS2968]

One point is that the tenders were partly destreamlined long before any such work was done to the engines. This consisted of cutting back the upper rear side sheets to the normal pattern to save the need of getting the bag through the access hole and into the tank filling hole when taking water. The lower valance covering the spring gear and the cover plates over frame slots were retained at this time, not disappearing until full destreamling took place.