Options for 'shared controllers'

[Fen End Pit]

As someone who operates a DCC controlled exhibition layout with multiple operators I have some questions about moving to a RC option.

What RC options are there that allow multiple operators to control multiple locomotives?

Are there ways for several operators to swap control of a locomotive in the way you would with DCC?

Are there any issues with RC control of layouts working in an exhibition environment with other RC controlled layouts?

 

any advice would be much appreciated.

David

[Regularity]

Thank you for asking this question! 

As far as I know, if you use Deltang “Selecta” controllers, you can have two controllers paired with each loco, and each controller can have up to 12 locos. They don’t have to be the same 12. Assuming a stud of maybe 16 locos, with 6 exclusively used for passenger traffic and 6 for freight, along with 6 “mixed traffic, it should be possible to pair the passenger and mixed traffic locos with one controller for passenger use, and the freight locos and mixed traffic locos with the other controller. Either controller can then select locos for the appropriate duties. If the loco is already in use by the other controller, then it cannot be picked up.

Sounds a bit hairy to me.

 

Another option is to use something like the Tam Valley system, where a transmitter is hooked up to the DCC output (instead of or as well as the rails) and receivers are interposed between loco decoder and power supply. You can therefore convert locos on an as and when basis, and maybe still use two-rail pickup but with batteries on board to provide several minutes (even hours) of running without a feed for charging. Using this method, you start with one loco and get the issues related to power/battery sorted whilst running DCC, then gradually convert everything else. When that is done, you can simplify/reduce/remove the traditional wiring, maybe only providing power where locos stand and wait, e.g. MPDs.

 

You can use any form of DCC controller this way, too: wired, wireless, mobile phone app, etc.

[Giles]

I cannot answer the core question, but I run a layout with at least half a dozen live rc vehicles and locos at any one time - all on the Deltang system,  and I've never had any problem with interference myself.

[Robin2]

2 hours ago, Fen End Pit said:

Are there ways for several operators to swap control of a locomotive in the way you would with DCC?

 

What about something simple like handing the RC controller to the other person?

 

...R

[Fen End Pit]

3 hours ago, Robin2 said:

What about something simple like handing the RC controller to the other person?

 

...R

That is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. With a layout several metres long it would just spoil the flow of operations.

David

[Fen End Pit]

4 hours ago, Regularity said:

Thank you for asking this question! 

As far as I know, if you use Deltang “Selecta” controllers, you can have two controllers paired with each loco, and each controller can have up to 12 locos. They don’t have to be the same 12. Assuming a stud of maybe 16 locos, with 6 exclusively used for passenger traffic and 6 for freight, along with 6 “mixed traffic, it should be possible to pair the passenger and mixed traffic locos with one controller for passenger use, and the freight locos and mixed traffic locos with the other controller. Either controller can then select locos for the appropriate duties. If the loco is already in use by the other controller, then it cannot be picked up.

Sounds a bit hairy to me.

 

Another option is to use something like the Tam Valley system, where a transmitter is hooked up to the DCC output (instead of or as well as the rails) and receivers are interposed between loco decoder and power supply. You can therefore convert locos on an as and when basis, and maybe still use two-rail pickup but with batteries on board to provide several minutes (even hours) of running without a feed for charging. Using this method, you start with one loco and get the issues related to power/battery sorted whilst running DCC, then gradually convert everything else. When that is done, you can simplify/reduce/remove the traditional wiring, maybe only providing power where locos stand and wait, e.g. MPDs.

 

You can use any form of DCC controller this way, too: wired, wireless, mobile phone app, etc.

Thanks, that is the first time I've heard about being able to use two Deltang controllers - I'll investigate this more.

I like the idea of the Tam Valley system, for me being able to reuse the existing sound chips is a big plus. Are there any resellers or users of it in the UK?

David

[Regularity]

8 minutes ago, Fen End Pit said:

Thanks, that is the first time I've heard about being able to use two Deltang controllers - I'll investigate this more.

 

 

David of DT himself told me about this facility. It’s all in the binding, and apparently receivers can recall the previous binding, allowing for them to be swapped between transmitters.
 

Quote

I like the idea of the Tam Valley system, for me being able to reuse the existing sound chips is a big plus. Are there any resellers or users of it in the UK?

Yes.

 

I suppose you want to know who they are?

Digitrains for one, and presumably anyone who sells other TVD products can order them for you.

I have bought items directly, but that is no longer possible, but have made purchases from Digitrains.

(Usual disclaimer!)

 

[Fen End Pit]

14 minutes ago, Regularity said:

 

David of DT himself told me about this facility. It’s all in the binding, and apparently receivers can recall the previous binding, allowing for them to be swapped between transmitters.
 

Yes.

 

I suppose you want to know who they are?

Digitrains for one, and presumably anyone who sells other TVD products can order them for you.

I have bought items directly, but that is no longer possible, but have made purchases from Digitrains.

(Usual disclaimer!)

 

thanks Simon

Been having a good read of the Digitrains website.

The Tam Valley website not the clearest in terms of examples.

 

Am I right that in order to try this I'd need..

DTX022 DRS1 MKIII TRANSMITTER 868MHZ for £45

DRX022 DRS1 MKIII RECEIVER 869MHZ for £45 (per loco)

What is your recommendation for a source of batteries?

And I also need a charger?

I was also a bit confused by the text about switches on the Tam Valley site.

 

David

[wasdavetheroad]

The nearest match to DCC functionality in this area would be BlueRail trains latest boards which apparently allow the controller to select any loco from a 'pool' as long as it is not in use by another controller. Not sure of the details but the BlueRail boards are in production, or at least the versions that connect to a DCC decoder are available from Tam Valley?

 

The multi operator feature on Deltang transmitters is designed to allow passing on control from one operator to another american style but it probably won't handle a large layout with lots of shared locos. I use Deltang stuff but don't use this feature although I do exploit it to allow for some consisting.

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Fen End Pit said:

Am I right that in order to try this I'd need..

DTX022 DRS1 MKIII TRANSMITTER 868MHZ for £45

DRX022 DRS1 MKIII RECEIVER 869MHZ for £45 (per loco)

What is your recommendation for a source of batteries?

And I also need a charger?

Yes.

i suggest you try using the rails to provide the traction current.

 

Batteries: a minefield! I have bought, but not yet installed, some 18650 li-ion batteries, plus charging circuit boards and step-up DC converters. Others might suggest battery packs of 3 li-ion in series, which will require “balance charging”.

Some might even suggest Ni-Cads.

Word of caution: you may receive advice on low-capacity batteries from people who run their trains for limited periods of time, and who don’t have sound units fitted. Make sure you know their operational parameters and see if they apply to you.

 

When purchasing batteries, go for established brands and look around at the prices: if something appears to be too good to be true, it will be. Panasonic and similar produce these batteries with 4AH, which should see a full day’s running at an exhibition with power to spare for most people.

The use of switches is to disconnect the battery when it is not in use.

 

There are plenty of people out there who have their own chosen method which works for them, but who seem incapable of realising that this isn’t what you want to do for yourself. (I got so peed off with one forum where the actions of a few were tantamount to bullying unless you towed the line that I left.) Like you, I am looking for a solution that provides for a degree of organisation via a central hub, so that there can be many locos and many controllers, but everything monitored from one place. The original ProtoCab was going to do this, but sadly became focused on it’s own proprietary development. If it had been a simple offering that used a cheap computer (e.g. an old laptop, RPi) as both a network host and command centre, using WiFi connections to controllers (or phone apps) and to/from locos, where a combined power-management* and transceiver interposed between the loco’s DCC socket and decoder, I think it would have sold like hot cakes.

 

A model railway is not like other models of other forms of transport. Model ships, model land vehicles and model aircraft usually operate out in the open world, with the ship/car/tank/plane etc the sole item of interest. A simple controller per unit makes sense here - as indeed it does on a small layout, or on a large one where the driver follows the train. But frequently model railways are integrated systems and a central command centre can act like the shed master’s duty board to bring a degree of order to proceedings. 

 

If you are on Facebook, join the “Deadrails” group.

 

* You could use separate charged batteries, batteries powered via the rails, or simple AC or DC via the rails to power this.

 

As a tangent, I was trying to find advice on where best to put a thumb rest on a bass guitar for my partner’s daughter. I did a search and found a thread which stated this very question. The OP clearly said that he realised many players didn’t use them, and that was fine, but was looking solely for guidance on where to place the thumb rest as this was what he wanted to. It won’t surprise you to read that 54% of the replies were from people saying they didn’t use one and couldn’t see the point.

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, wasdavetheroad said:

The nearest match to DCC functionality in this area would be BlueRail trains latest boards which apparently allow the controller to select any loco from a 'pool' as long as it is not in use by another controller. Not sure of the details but the BlueRail boards are in production, or at least the versions that connect to a DCC decoder are available from Tam Valley?

Nope. The Tam Valley DRS using a transmitter and a receiver per loco does exactly what the OP asked. It isn’t a case of a nearest match, but a match. It’s (possibly) a shame that it uses IM band frequencies rather than network or Bluetooth protocols (which may have resulted in a smaller circuit board) but otherwise it does exactly what Dave was asking about, and allows it to happen in a phased, experimental and gradual way.

Yes, Tam Valley have produced a board that allows direct Bluetooth connection between a mobile phone and a DCC decoder, but that’s just another example of what wasn’t being asked for, although it is a rather exciting development.

[Fen End Pit]

20 hours ago, Regularity said:

Yes.

i suggest you try using the rails to provide the traction current.

 

One of my main motivations for being interested in this technology is to get away from track power. I want to model dodgy narrow gauge systems where the rail head is definitely not a shiny metal surface suitable for conducting electricity and possibly where the rails are knee high in grass!

 

As far as battery life goes I don't see the requirement (for me) of all day running. I'd quite like a situation where a loco has to return to the shed to charge on a regular basis to be swapped with a different locomotive. One of my concerns is the size of the batteries because even in 16mm my engines aren't that large. On the plus side I'm presuming I can loose the existing 'keep-alive' capacitors on the DCC chip.

 

thanks

David

[Regularity]

I was suggesting track power as an interim step, whilst you first try the radio control to see if it works for you.

Then move on to the issue of batteries, and how you wish to charge them. (Rails, on-board socket, or removable.)

As for stay alive capacitors... ...why would you need them, if using batteries for power?

[Fen End Pit]

1 minute ago, Regularity said:

I was suggesting track power as an interim step, whilst you first try the radio control to see if it works for you.

Then move on to the issue of batteries, and how you wish to charge them. (Rails, on-board socket, or removable.)

As for stay alive capacitors... ...why would you need them, if using batteries for power?

thanks, that is what I thought.

David

[Regularity]

This is an example supplier of an 18650 battery. 18mm diameter and 65mm long. The final 0 is for cylindrical.

https://www.batteriesplus.co.uk/acatalog/Pair-of-Panasonic-NCR18650B-Green-Li-Ion-18650-Rechargeable-Batteries---3.7-V-3400-mAh-Lithium-cells-1954.html

That provides 1 amp at a nominal 3.7V for 3.4 hours. (Volts will vary from 4.2V down to 3.4v.)

if you use a simple step up converter to get 9v out (to make sure that the sound effects work on the decoder, then you will get 1A for 3.4 x (3.7/9) hours, but there is also an efficiency loss in the conversion, let’s be safe and say 20% is lost (which would be quite high). 3.7/9*80% = 0.328, or for simplicity, ⅓.

That means you could get 1 amp for an hour and maybe 10 minutes, if you need 9V.

But, a continuous draw of 1A is quite high: most of my models are a quarter of that, so that single cell could provide between 4 and 5 hours of running time, assuming that the sound was kept on and the loco ran continuously.

 

That’s quite a lot of running! 

There are smaller batteries, 14500, which are the same physical size as AA batteries, but they generally seem to be of lower power.

 

 

[Robin2]

12 hours ago, Fen End Pit said:

One of my main motivations for being interested in this technology is to get away from track power. I want to model dodgy narrow gauge systems where the rail head is definitely not a shiny metal surface suitable for conducting electricity and possibly where the rails are knee high in grass!

 

I have found that some matt paint on the rail greatly improves adhesion on inclines

 

I have built my own BPRC equipment using the Arduino programming system for 009 models using the Kato tram chassis - that makes it very flexible but only for people who are prepared to do their own construction and programming.  I have no interest in on-board sound but I might eventually experiment with speakers under the baseboards.

 

...R