LMS 2MT 2-6-0 in BR Green

[Fredo]

Hi,

Does anyone know which year the Swindon built 2MT’s such as 46521 were repainted in BR Green?

 Thanks Fred

[The Stationmaster]

From c. Nov 1956 onwards being lined from early 1957 if receiving a full repaint after a h Heavy or Intermediate repair.  'Economy green (i.e.unlined) seems to have started c.1959/60.  Don't forget that only WR allocated engines repainted at WR works would have received green livery although most (all?) of them were later reallocated away from the WR

[The Johnster]

Late 1956 was a time when, following the re-organisation of the British Transport Commision and the inception of the British Railways Board (alongside Waterways, Docks etc) the regions were given greater autonomy in regards to liveries, and the WR interpreted this as meaning that mixed traffic locos could be given fully lined out express passenger green livery.  One can perhaps see the point in the cast of 14xx, 54/64xx, 4575, auto fitted locos used on passenger work, but the practice spread to all MT types to some extent; Halls, Granges, Manors, Counties, 73xxx, 75xxx, 82xxx and both Ivatt and BR standard 78xxx 2MT moguls, not to mention 82xxx, large prairies of 5101, 61xx, and Collett 31xx classes, and possibly 3150 and 81xx as well, 45xx, 56xx, 2251, and 43xx.  The livery was applied at Swindon and Caerphilly works.

 

Some BR standards allocated to the Southern Region were also given fully lined out livery, notably 73xxx and 75xxx; I believe the work was done at Eastleigh.

[Marshall5]

The Swindon built Ivatts were 46503-27. Having had a quick flick through various colour albums I can give a few examples that were painted B.R. green, the earliest dated example being 46522 @SDN works 4/59.

46504-6 were described as unlined green when transferred from the Cambrian to the Manchester area c.1965.

46509 Lined Green in 6/61 & 8/64

46510 - 14 all Lined Black various dates 8/62 to 4/65

46516 Lined Black in 7/60 & 2/66

46517  8/66  46518 12/59  46519 4/66  46520 11/64  45621 at withdrawal. All lined Green on those dates.

Hope this helps.

Ray.

[Poor Old Bruce]

On 04/08/2020 at 15:35, The Stationmaster said:

 Don't forget that only WR allocated engines repainted at WR works would have received green livery although most (all?) of them were later reallocated away from the WR

 

There was a Standard Five repainted in lined green at Derby in the early 1960s. I spent one lunchtime engrossed in watching a chap applying some of the orange lining to it (chalk string lines and a lining brush), can't remember the number I'm afraid.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

There was a Standard Five repainted in lined green at Derby in the early 1960s. I spent one lunchtime engrossed in watching a chap applying some of the orange lining to it (chalk string lines and a lining brush), can't remember the number I'm afraid.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

 

For the Johnster's information the British Railways Board  was introduced from 1 January 1963 taking over control of Britain's state owned railways from the British Transport Commission at that time  - not in 1956.

[Steamport Southport]

The Southern allocated 5MTs were correctly BR lined green as they were used as express passenger locomotives and took over the King Arthur duties.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[kevinlms]

Why would anyone want to paint such lovely locomotives anything but black?

 

The LMS had determined that black was the correct colour for them. :-)

[Nearholmer]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Southern allocated 5MTs were correctly BR lined green

 

This is a bit of a vexed subject I know, so can anyone point to a definitive source stating which ones and when?

 

There is an informed discussion of the topic here http://svsfilm.com/nineelms/73029.htm which seems to conclude that the southern-allocated green 5MT locos were inherited from WR, which begs questions about which, if any, of the "namers" were green.

 

I can actually remember these locos in service, but not the livery - to me as a boy they were simply very big, very dirty, with really good names, and a nasty habit of blowing-off spectacularly when at the stops at Waterloo (which implies questionable fireman-ship, I guess).

 

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Pannier Tank]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Southern allocated 5MTs were correctly BR lined green as they were used as express passenger locomotives and took over the King Arthur duties.

Jason

 

BR Std 5 73014 in BR Lined Green Livery was allocated to 1E Bletchley 1964/65, she was kept relatively clean during that period.

[Marshall5]

19 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Southern allocated 5MTs were correctly BR lined green as they were used as express passenger locomotives and took over the King Arthur duties.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Until I checked in the RCTS 'B.R. Standard Steam Locomotives Vol2' I would have been tempted to agree with you. However it states  "None of the original SR allocation of Standard Cl.5 4-6-0s, 73080-9, 73110-9, which had acquired the names of the withdrawn Urie King Arthur Cl. N15 4-6-0's by the summer of 1961, were repainted in green; even 73086 The Green Knight carried mixed traffic black for the whole of its career".  The reason given was that SR regarded the 73xxx as mixed traffic locos so stayed black.

Not withstanding this some ex WR green 73xxx were transferred to the SR and are detailed in the above mentioned volume.

Cheers,

Ray.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Marshall5

[Marshall5]

15 hours ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

BR Std 5 73014 in BR Lined Green Livery was allocated to 1E Bletchley 1964/65, she was kept relatively clean during that period.

73014 was re-allocated to Bletchley in March 1964 having just been repainted green during overhaul at Eastleigh.  Table 8 P30 of the RCTS BR Std Vol2 details which 73xxx were painted green, where and when. Apparently there were some subtle differences between livery applied at Eastleigh and elsewhere.

Ray.

[The Border Reiver]

On my first visit from Carlisle as a 14 year old in August 1961 to see GWR locos, I came across 46509 on Shrewsbury shed in green livery. I was quite amazed at seeing a non passenger LMS loco in green, so I took this photo of it. Taken with my trusty Box Brownie with Gratispool film, the quality is not brilliant.

 

[Pannier Tank]

22 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

73014 was re-allocated to Bletchley in March 1964 having just been repainted green during overhaul at Eastleigh.  Table 8 P30 of the RCTS BR Std Vol2 details which 73xxx were painted green, where and when. Apparently there were some subtle differences between livery applied at Eastleigh and elsewhere.

Ray.

 

That explains why she looked so good!