EFE Rail launches

[Andy Reichert]

55 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Do you think it really was like that, or is it just an established urban myth?

 

.

 

I was there. Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang models didn't disappear. They just got improvements and the range expanded slowly  but definitely. Back then, it was Japan that was considered a supplier of poor quality knock-offs.

 

Andy

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, rembrow said:

The unknown factor is Heljan's intentions having put the Hymek into this range, will they use this for their older tooling in a sort of pseudo 'Railroad' range.

It's nothing like a 'Railroad' range, but instead an alternative distribution channel. If it brings in target revenue, then why not try some further product from existing tooling that might find customers with broader distribution? (There's nothing like sweating investments as cash cows.)

 

Quite apart from the direct money grubbing, there's a second potential benefit for Heljan. If their product sold via this channel reaches a significant number of completely new customers, some might be persuaded to try further items under Heljan's own label. There is a very conservative element in the customer base, and Heljan's range of UK product has only been around eighteen years or thereabouts...

['CHARD]

32 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

I was there. Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang models didn't disappear. They just got improvements and the range expanded slowly  but definitely. Back then, it was Japan that was considered a supplier of poor quality knock-offs.

 

Andy

 

The past is another country.  The present day buyer is unsupportive of D7063 and co being churned out year on year with no advances in finesse, the market itself has shrunk and competition is far more agile.  I suspect that any manufacturer staking their house on the business model of the '50s - 80s would be unlikely to attract support from another investor.

[Andy Reichert]

Fortunately, I don't have to put up with the financier driven mode of today. Unalterable, pre-painted finesse that breaks off when one picks it up and makes expensive but tinny noises doesn't appeal to my sensibilities. The past and present EFE tube sets are a good enough basis for me and for  a challenge to make fully realistically operational when I have time.

 

I'm pleased that Bachmann finally made motorized versions available.  The models fit a nostalgic niche for many of we south of Potters Bar past country citizens. Whether the market for those is already saturated is an interesting situation to keep an eye on.

 

Andy

 

 

[Tricky-CRS]

3 hours ago, rembrow said:

I agree with all you have said Mike, it is a good analysis of the commercial reasoning for this new range, however it seems to me that it's main basis of using tooling that is owned by a retailer who used DJ Models and Dapol to produce commissions at a particular Chinese factory and DJ Models tooling owned by the same factory, rather limits it's long term use and creates a bit of a cul-de-sac. There is probably a few more products that Kernow may add to the range- O2; Beattie Well tank; LSWR auto coach set, as they probably judge that another run of these will take an unreasonably lengthy amount of time to sell, if retailed only via their shops. There is only the DJ Models Class 73 from the DJ commissions left and that was always competing badly against the Hornby product. As others have said, there is the option of new body and underframe tooling for a Class 74.  I can't see other companies who initially used DJ Models for commissions adding their product (Irish Railway Models and Hattons spring to mind). So this leaves new tooling, however I can't see Kader being willing to let another competing manufacturer produce tooling for one of it's businesses. Time will tell, but having been a fan of the previous EFE diecast business, I've not seen that Bachmann have done much to keep that product going, with promised new tooling still not materialised and a sparse release programme. The unknown factor is Heljan's intentions having put the Hymek into this range, will they use this for their older tooling in a sort of pseudo 'Railroad' range.

 

I think you are missing the point, factories in China can now design, tool and manufacture by themselves and then retail through this brand. Like Sonic in N Gauge working with RevolutioN. If you think they gave up designing when DJM stopped paying you will be wrong. Now working with at least Bachmann UK and Kernow on research and development they will be designing all sorts, who does what research DJM gave them. I do not see a cul-de-sac here just a way to bypass the Kader log jam. Some items will continue through branchline and Farish to maintain brands and others through EFE Rail to generate cash and new stock on shelf's.

[Butler Henderson]

Its has overtones of Palitoy when they acquired Airfix, a separate supply chain opened up outside of Kader and was used to develop the 56 and Fowler 2P for Mainline, the latter by the simple measure of making use of the existing Airfix Fowler Tender. Could it have been the agreement with Kader was nearing its end (a 10/12 years term?) and by using other suppliers they had separate costings which they could have used if the plug had not been pulled on Europe by General Mills to get improved terms or simply walk away from Kader for new toolings. Obviously Bachmann are tied to Kader so nothing dramatic is going to happen but EFE Rail opens up a marketing opportunity and gives Kernow (and possibly others) products a greater market place, inclyuding Heljan due to the limited in comaprison retailers stocking their products, I can imagine the conversation - Yes we would like to be included, we have the O2 2-8-0... what, oh you don't want that, , er yes we could make some Hymeks.

[MarkSG]

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Do you think it really was like that, or is it just an established urban myth?

 

It was like that. For a lot of things, it still is. If you own the factory, then you can run it as a continuous production line, with supply broadly keeping up with demand. Cars are still made like that, and so are the sort of things you buy from Ikea and B&Q. Once it starts to be made it carries on being made until it's discontinued. Some model railway products are still done like that. I'm pretty sure it's how Peco keeps the supply of track going year after year after year, for example.

 

What has changed, and has changed particularly for precision engineering and electronics, is the growth of "Manufacturing as a Service", whereby the products are constructed in someone else's factory. The factory makes things for all sorts of clients, and any one client has to book a slot in which their products are made. Even when the factory is owned by another part of the same group (eg, Kader), it's still doing work for many parts of the group who have to take their turn with each other.

 

This is how most modern electronic items, such as phones, are now made, and it's increasingly becoming the norm for model railway products as well. And the simple reason is that it's generally more cost effective to book a manufacturing slot in someone else's factory than own your own factory. Particularly when the factory is located in a different country where local costs are much lower.

 

One of the consequences of this, though, is that quantities have to be front-loaded. If you expect to sell 5,000 items over five years, you have to have 5,000 made in one go and then store them until they are all gone. You can't just make 1,000 a year (and much less make 84 a month). And at the end of that five years, if you want to sell more, you have to book another manufacturing slot.

 

Like Andy, I do somewhat regret this when it comes to model railways. I don't like having to make a decision now whether or not I want something that might or might not be part of a project that I might do after I've moved on from the current one. I don't like deciding not to buy it, only to change my mind later and find that the eBay price gougers have seen me coming and doubled their markup. I don't like deciding that I do want something and paying the current price, only for it to turn up in the retailers' bargain bins a year later.

 

But, we are where we are, and if everything was still being manufactured the traditional way then it would probably cost significantly more. What we gain from MaaS is cheaper products. And we also gain, every now and then, from some end-of-line bargains that are being cleared out to make room for the next container load from China. So I don't think we can complain too much. We just have to realise that we can't have everything.

[PhilJ W]

5 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Andy, I guess it depends how much effort you want to put in to super-detail them.  It would be easy to scrape off the molded-on handrails and maybe some of the other end detail but it would probably require a complete re-paint.  The glazing doesn't look good but replacing with individually cut panes would be very time consuming as I found out making Radley white metal Standard Stock.  The glazing would look much better without the hollows behind each window.  Flat back glazing with the molded windows to give flush appearance without the thick edges would be better - think of how Airfix does airliner windows.....

Then there's the Oxford Diecast approach as on many of their bus and coach models. Mould the model in clear plastic with windows and tampo print the solid sides. 

[Jeff Smith]

Yes, that would work even better......but would make re-painting a lot harder!

[rembrow]

16 hours ago, Tricky-CRS said:

 

I think you are missing the point, factories in China can now design, tool and manufacture by themselves and then retail through this brand. Like Sonic in N Gauge working with RevolutioN. If you think they gave up designing when DJM stopped paying you will be wrong. Now working with at least Bachmann UK and Kernow on research and development they will be designing all sorts, who does what research DJM gave them. I do not see a cul-de-sac here just a way to bypass the Kader log jam. Some items will continue through branchline and Farish to maintain brands and others through EFE Rail to generate cash and new stock on shelf's.

I don't think I am missing the point. Kader/Bachmann distribute other product that are complimentary to it's model range, but not in competition. This is stated by Richard Proudman in the quotes that World of Railways used when they announced this venture. I've added the link as although it is another Warner model railway media, it may be copyright.

 https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/what-is-efe-rail/

He states that at one time they distributed Heljan products, he quotes their building range, but I don't remember them distributing Heljan models.

Why I suggested that this may be limited to existing products in the main, that have already had an initial retail run, was based on a view that I can't see Bachmann or Kader being willing to market new to market railway products that could compete against it's own product lines.

To give an extreme example, if Manufacturer A in China came to Bachmann to offer a GWR/BR Class 94xx model in 'oo' gauge, fully tooled but needing a UK distributor, would Bachmann take it on, with their own product about to be released. Now that's an extreme example but let's say any other GWR based 0-6-0 produced externally could be seen as providing competition to a planned or existing model. Personally I believe they will be discrete in what they allow into this range.

The issue about Sonic Models is unusual, in that the owner who was previously a Kader engineer, decided to set up his own model making design and manufacture and rather than advertise for business (he may have done this and not had much success) he designed a UK outline model and took it to a UK company to seek a distribution deal. We don't know if he approached other UK suppliers before Revolution. Now that was a novel and unusual approach and we may see more of that if more Chinese manufacturers set up, but I don't think it will be a growing trend.

Interestingly the World of Railways article gives a different perspective on the inclusion of the ex DJ Models products, certainly the J94 and Class 17, which hints that these are not being produced directly by the Chinese factory who owned the tooling for this range. World of Railways states that these two are being produced in 'association with Kernow Model Railways'. Does that mean that Kernow have purchased the tooling, or negotiated a production run with the factory, a factory they have an existing relationship with.

Anyway, time will tell. What I did find out from my local retailer yesterday, who is a Bachmann retailer, is that he is ordering initially a minimal quantity of product from this range, to test the water, as his soundings with his regular customers have indicated that take up will be low .  

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Isn't it the same model just in a another box

And through EFE Rail available from a wider range of retailers than was previously the case so available to a bigger market than was previously the case.

 

This is an area to which we are, in some respects, not giving sufficient attention.  We tend far too often to regard RMweb as representative of  the entire model railway hobby in Britain easily overlooking the fact that many folk who buy model railway products might just be happy with their own layout or whatever and not bothering with things on the 'net or perhaps not even bothering to buy railway modelling magazines except possibly on an occasional basis.  So how many of those people have never come across Heljan or Kernow models,  how many of them have never heard of DJM, and how many of them distrust buying online because they don't like the idea for whatever reason, or they don't like buying by mail order.  

 

There is - according to various retailers I know - a substantial body of their customers who buy their trains through shops and have little or no knowledge of things they don't see there.  Equally there are plenty out there who will only find out about EFE Rail when their usual retailer begins to stock it.  And it will have models which are totally new to them.  I don't know the size of that 'silent' market but I would be surprised if Bachmann in the UK have not done sufficient research into it before committing themselves to a new brand and a new (to them and that brand) range of models.  The proof of the pudding for Bachmann's venture will  be their sales figures - not what we think those figures are going to be and not us wondering why somebody else would want to include a DJM 'Austerity' or a  Hymek from Heljan in their new range.

 

And lest we forget what we also don't know is what other 'orphaned' tooling (if any?) Bachmann might have access to for this new range or what else any other manufacturer might offer them.  All we know is that we are not looking at a brand targetted at the lower end of the market price wise or something akin to Hornby's Railroad sub-brand using old/superseded  main range tooling.

[Tricky-CRS]

32 minutes ago, rembrow said:

Interestingly the World of Railways article gives a different perspective on the inclusion of the ex DJ Models products, certainly the J94 and Class 17, which hints that these are not being produced directly by the Chinese factory who owned the tooling for this range. World of Railways states that these two are being produced in 'association with Kernow Model Railways'. Does that mean that Kernow have purchased the tooling, or negotiated a production run with the factory, a factory they have an existing relationship with.

 

The DJM and Kernow factories are one in the same, DJM set up and introduced Kernow to the factory. The DJM factory had both sets of tooling (and others) and had a good relationship with Kernow so asked for help is my opinion. From what I have been told tooling rarely moves factories and if it does can get damaged or bits go missing. 

 

I would expect some level of communication between the ranges so you want get competing products but with equal measure I would not expect this to be a short term project.  

[rembrow]

19 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

I don't think you can just use age as a sole arbiter of quality.

 

The Hymek might be 15 years old, but is still reckoned by many to be one of Heljan's best models.

It certainly isn't "Railroad" standard.

What do you mean by " modern electronic capability" ? 

It's a DCC Ready model, albeit with the old 8-pin socket, but what do you think it's lacking?

 

The JIA and PBA both stand up very well against current wagon releases, if not quite there in the levels of detail compared with the likes of Accuascale.

They're a million miles away from any wagons put under the "Railroad" banner.

 

 

Railroad is indeed a terrible mixture.

Old lower spec, lower fidelity tooling, a small amount of newer tooling to lower spec.,  some. stuff which is of kiddies toy train standard and some utter junk.

 

EFE Rail appears to be nothing of the sort.

I think it's been explained very clearly what it's all about.

Lower spec. lower price branding doesn't appear to be a factor, at all.

 

 

.

You've queried why I've said that the Hymek is not up to current electronic standard, What do I mean.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have three Hymeks in BR green and have just bought the third which comes from the previous Heljan run. It is a good representation of the type, with excellent hauling power and a strong quiet motor, however

 

It has basis electronics, DCC ready yes, but no lighting functions for dc or dcc, only the 4 digit code illuminates with a weak diode bulb.

 

It also has other issues that show it's age.

1. Chassis detail is limited and the chassis is unpainted, leaving the fuel tank and side frames in shiny black plastic

2. The fuel tank is made up of 3 plastic mouldings that are not glued together, but are held together by pins/holes and a slot in the diecast chassis. If you pick up the loco it can come apart in your hands, or as mine was, in pieces in the box so, like my previous models this will need attention.

3. The roof lacks detail including no representation of the scavenger fan.

 

However it is the only reasonable Hymek we have in '00' and it is a brilliant runner, but I sought out one from the last batch as having hummed and haard for a couple of months I thought that remaining stock was likely to clear the shelves quickly, with the increased price point of this new run through the new outlet. 

 

I agree that this range is not like the Railroad range, I only used it as an example of a range created to market older tooling, and certainly Hornby's current management seem to have taken the range back to it's original focus, with no new models appearing in a lower spec within the range. 

[PhilJ W]

Of the many companies that come under the Bachmann banner there is the Classix die-cast vehicle range. There has been nothing produced since the takeover. 

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry to go OT but if anyone wants to see photos of Hymeks in traffic with shiny black fuel tanks I'm happy to oblige ;)   (Fuel spillage over the tanks was far from unknown on Hymeks)

Edited August 8, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[TomScrut]

30 minutes ago, Tricky-CRS said:

From what I have been told tooling rarely moves factories and if it does can get damaged or bits go missing. 

 

And there is no guarantee of compatibility with the machines in the other factory, if anything I'd say it's more likely to be incompatible without tweaks, which doesn't come without cost.

[John M Upton]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Of the many companies that come under the Bachmann banner there is the Classix die-cast vehicle range. There has been nothing produced since the takeover. 

 

I think there were some solid window type resin buildings as well.  To be honest, a very basic range that would be more suited to being incorporated in a range of basic scenic accessories I feel.

[rembrow]

I'm interested to see the heavily weathered JIAs in the open, to see how the pattern is applied, in case they are using a standard pattern. When these were originally produced for Kernow by Dapol, they developed a number of different weathering patterns which were printed on to the models. Each differently numbered version had a different weathering pattern, allowing a short rake of heavily weathered models to look more accurate. At the time they were introduced this was considered innovative, and I bought most of the weathered versions. It's not been stated how the weathering will be applied for these versions. I may just go for the ones with lighter weathering.

[Not Captain Kernow]

56 minutes ago, rembrow said:

I'm interested to see the heavily weathered JIAs in the open, to see how the pattern is applied, in case they are using a standard pattern. When these were originally produced for Kernow by Dapol, they developed a number of different weathering patterns which were printed on to the models. Each differently numbered version had a different weathering pattern, allowing a short rake of heavily weathered models to look more accurate. At the time they were introduced this was considered innovative, and I bought most of the weathered versions. It's not been stated how the weathering will be applied for these versions. I may just go for the ones with lighter weathering.

 

They were not printed on. The base livery was applied as normal and weathering was applied over this, so each model was slightly different.  The new versions applied are exactly the same, the images of the new models are on the press release and websites already showing this,

 

You can see them on the Kernow website for example

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/115/JIA-NACCO-Wagon

Edited August 8, 2020 by Not Captain Kernow
Link added

[rembrow]

30 minutes ago, Not Captain Kernow said:

 

They were not printed on. The base livery was applied as normal and weathering was applied over this, so each model was slightly different.  The new versions applied are exactly the same, the images of the new models are on the press release and websites already showing this,

 

You can see them on the Kernow website for example

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/115/JIA-NACCO-Wagon

I've found the original info from 2010/11 on this site. The weathered versions used master models produced by Mercig Studios and these models were sent to the factory to be used as templates to apply the different weathering patterns. Thanks for the Kernow link, as they show the models photographed with the same orientation,  other sites incl this thread have used photos of models from opposite sides. 

[shunny]

On 07/08/2020 at 09:10, McC said:

for what it’s worth Accurascale are also highly supportive of retailers. Offering industry leading pricing and margins and terms as well as commissions and exclusives. 

Sorry I meant  no offense this was not  a dig at Accurascale or your business model, I am a happy customer with many of your products but more to try to show how different companies and pricing models are in the industry and how a traditional model company  Bachmann supplying some of these models to trade would differ from say a direct sales to customer model ( who are now also supplying shops direct) differ and lead to some of the prices being higher than some may have been expecting. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by shunny
wording

[adb968008]

who owns Bachmann ?

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02392907/persons-with-significant-control

 

 

 

[Mel_H]

On 07/08/2020 at 15:52, Jeff Smith said:

Andy, I guess it depends how much effort you want to put in to super-detail them.  It would be easy to scrape off the molded-on handrails and maybe some of the other end detail but it would probably require a complete re-paint.  The glazing doesn't look good but replacing with individually cut panes would be very time consuming as I found out making Radley white metal Standard Stock.  The glazing would look much better without the hollows behind each window.  Flat back glazing with the molded windows to give flush appearance without the thick edges would be better - think of how Airfix does airliner windows.....

Laser glazing!  How many people would be needed placing orders to persuade Shawplan to do this?!

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

who owns Bachmann ?

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02392907/persons-with-significant-control

 

 

 

Nothing new there.  In fact I've already referred to it in this thread - on the page linked below.  In fact at last publication of detailed information Mr Kenneth Ting owned every share in Bachmann Europe except for 2. yes, two - out of a paid up share capital of over 2 million shares.  So he personally (and not Kader, of which he is still the Chairman and the largest shareholder) owns in excess off 99.99% of Bachmann Europe.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/157035-efe-rail-launches/page/13/

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

who owns Bachmann ?

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02392907/persons-with-significant-control

 

Reads like someone with foresight who saw what was happening in Hong Kong, and might happen post 2017, and moved to prepare for it.

Edited August 9, 2020 by mdvle