EFE Rail launches

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, howardpidd said:

 

And of course no alternative views have any legitimacy!

 

If I kept saying the same thing to you every day for years and if it's something no-one has any power to resolve wouldn't you get bored?

 

If you want to address the comments to the intended recipient drop Bachmann a line rather than others who can't do anything about it either.

[Class 158 productions]

We turn to these forums, or at least I do, to try and gain more information or justification from manufacturers. Bachmann in particular don’t seem to be that aware online, although are improving and in person I found them rather confrontational. Price is a very hard argument, although there are many good reasons why prices have risen so significantly but still means a lot of people get priced out. And some products have seem to be redesigned, which I commend on bachmanns part. Shows a change from the gen 1 37s or 47s on 57 chassis. I’ll be interested to see how the hymeks sell at the higher prices, if they do, I’m completely wrong and should hush up, but if I’m not, maybe some manufacturers should actually be transparent about pricing.

[PaulRhB]

13 minutes ago, howardpidd said:

 

And of course no alternative views have any legitimacy!

Not true, but dragging the profiteering conspiracy out again as a moan about prices isn’t exactly new! The option remains to vote with your mouse and not click on buy  On one hand we have people predicting the doom of the hobby because of the lesser number of younger modellers while bemoaning the prices that make a shrinking market remain viable and creative. Few independent model manufacturers are left and the big ones owned by global companies and investors have to play by the big boys rules. That’s life not a vendetta against modellers  

I’m not surprised Andy is bored with it again.

[micklner]

37 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

Think about it...

 

previously its

 

chinese factory(cut)...Heljan/Kernow/DJ(cut)...retailer(cut)

 

now its:

 

chinese factory (cut)...Heljan/Kernow (cut)... Bachmann (cut)... Retailer (cut)

 

the extra bit bit of profit for Bachmann has to come from somewhere. That’s where the price increase comes in...

Interesting but if ??  its owned by Bachmann outright ?? , why are Heljan and Kernow still making money. Heljan surely would surely sell them direct and actually have a chance to getting rid off them for good ?.  Far too many fingers in a greasy pie it would appear for that to happen very quickly if at all.

 

Never impressed with the J94 when released , poor mechanical set up and bodywork is nothing wonderful either. The asking price is simply laughable in the current times, especially if all they have done is stick another motor in it.

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Class 158 productions said:

We turn to these forums ... for justification from manufacturers.

 

3 minutes ago, Class 158 productions said:

, maybe some manufacturers should actually be transparent about pricing.

 

No, they're for modelling and information.

 

Do you head for moneysavingexpert.com and protest that Cathedral City should be justifying their price for cheddar? That's a hard cheese too.

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, micklner said:

The asking price is simply laughable in the current times, especially if all they have done is stick another motor in it.

 

They're also testing a revolutionary concept of making a profit out of this J94.

[PaulRhB]

Just now, Class 158 productions said:

although there are many good reasons why prices have risen so significantly but still means a lot of people get priced out.

True, when I was young I could only dream about LGB G scale stuff, then Bachmann brought in competition and they dropped lower. Then the recession hit LGB went bust and was bought out by an investment bank who retargeted at collectors and jumped the prices up by 70-100% while quality control went up the swanney! That priced me out as I can’t justify it.
Bachmann and the others have weathered the recession because they are smart in making a profit that can stand fluctuations, no doubt some in here are now priced out because jobs have gone and money is tight, that means Bachmann and the others will lose sales but should be able to stand it without going bust like LGB. These are non essential toys and there’s a lot of people at Barwell relying on a job that has weathered the current storm while family members might not have been so lucky. 
Savvy business rather than conspiracy?

[Class 158 productions]

That’s what the latter part of my point was suggesting. In the coming months we will see the true impact. The industry itself could be under severe threat and I believe Bachmann (and others) were having money trouble recently. (Could be totally wrong on that) , so I’m rather sceptical at their outcome. When the sales fall, if they do. 

[micklner]

Just now, AY Mod said:

 

They're also testing a revolutionary concept of making a profit out of this J94.

Good luck to them if Bachmann do make a profit , after all the other people taking cuts if that is  true? before Bachmann see a penny profit.

 

If true then it will be the equivalent of small changeas a return to a "big player" as Bachmann are now being described as, with all the potential of numerous returns, etc etc in due course all falling in Bachmanns lap. 

 

Very surprised, that they have got involved ex DJ products at all. I thought they would never be seen again.

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, Class 158 productions said:

The industry itself could be under severe threat and I believe Bachmann (and others) were having money trouble recently. (Could be totally wrong on that)

 

Where is the evidence to back up your assertions?

[frobisher]

9 minutes ago, micklner said:

Interesting but if ??  its owned by Bachmann outright ?? , why are Heljan and Kernow still making money. Heljan surely would surely sell them direct and actually have a chance to getting rid off them for good ?.  Far too many fingers in a greasy pie it would appear for that to happen very quickly if at all.

 

 The advantage for Heljan and Kernow is these are production runs THEY aren't taking any risk on, and are not responsible for, shipping, distribution and marketing.  For H & K there is no stock sitting unsold in a warehouse, there are no returns to handle etc, that all falls to Bachmann who can get the products into a greater number of shops than H & K in any case.

[spamcan61]

7 minutes ago, micklner said:

Good luck to them if Bachmann do make a profit , after all the other people taking cuts if that is  true?

Nobody in the supply chain between actual manufacturer and the end customer, as outlined by T4U, is doing it for fun, they're all in it to make a profit.

 

7 minutes ago, micklner said:

Very surprised, that they have got involved ex DJ products at all. I thought they would never be seen again.

Somebody somewhere spent a good deal of money tooling up those products, so it isn't at all surprising they're trying to recoup that investment.

Edited August 19, 2020 by spamcan61

[Jeff Smith]

Why oh why do people moan about rtr prices, either you can afford it or not!  If not find something that you can afford or believe is better value.  Moaning or trying to understand pricing justification does not further the hobby.

[Class 158 productions]

6 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Where is the evidence to back up your assertions?

I remember reading that Bachmann have been operating at losses the past few years, maybe around 2017(?) I thought that they had seen profits now but given how unpredictable these times are.

[Not Captain Kernow]

Just now, Jeff Smith said:

Why oh why do people moan about rtr prices, either you can afford it or not!  If not find something that you can afford or believe is better value.  Moaning or trying to understand pricing justification does not further the hobby.

 

I think it is the RMweb version of Godwin's law - every discussion on products ends up with someone wittering on about the price!

[micklner]

4 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Nobody in the supply chain between actual manufacturer and the end customer, as outlined by T4U, is doing it for fun, they're all in it to make a profit.

 

Somebody somewhere spent a good deal of money tooling up those products, so it isn't at all surprising they're trying to recoup that investment.

I agree , but therefore Bachmann applying some simple logic, should have bought the "others" out of the supply chain before production, the main profit as well as all the potential hassle to come is all Bachmanns.

[Trains4U]

5 minutes ago, Not Captain Kernow said:

 

I think it is the RMweb version of Godwin's law - every discussion on products ends up with someone wittering on about the price!

 

Is now the opportune moment to mention Hitler?

[Trains4U]

Just now, micklner said:

I agree , but therefore Bachmann applying some simple logic, should have bought the "others" out of the supply chain before production, the main profit as well as all the potential hassle to come is all Bachmanns.

 

They can’t buy tools that aren’t for sale.

 

so why not do the next best thing and profit from distribution.

[grahame]

8 minutes ago, Class 158 productions said:

I remember reading that Bachmann have been operating at losses the past few years, maybe around 2017(?) 

 

I'm not so sure that your memory could be considered evidence.

 

 

[Class 158 productions]

5 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

I'm not so sure that your memory could be considered evidence.

 

 

Agreed, it’s why I put in brackets and question marks. Although I think I remember reading it in the Bachmann announcements, I’ll have a look now.

[frobisher]

9 minutes ago, micklner said:

I agree , but therefore Bachmann applying some simple logic, should have bought the "others" out of the supply chain before production, the main profit as well as all the potential hassle to come is all Bachmanns.

 

No, what Bachmann is doing is buying extra production capability and product lines that are not necessarily constrained by Kader's internal market.

[Suffolk Rob]

I normally adopt a read and don't write policy when topics get onto the subject of price but it does seem clear in my  opinion that Bachmann are  making reasonable decisions on RRP on a model by model basis.

 

I'm not a 4mm modeler and the J94 appears to cost more than in it's previous inclination but, as Andy and others have pointed out, there are enhancements ( I think)  and an understanding from Bachmann that they actually need to turn a profit to stay in business.

 

On the other hand the clay wagons seem very competitively priced to me, and the Class 17 (my interest is N) is, give or take a few quid, the same price as advertised when launched at TINGS more years ago than I can remember now and very competitively priced in the N gauge market

 

There's a significant increase in RRP for the mermaid too. I suspect that the common factor with the J94 is that models actually appeared under the former brand and that limited understanding of profit margins, or dare I say profit full stop, came into play when the previous RRP was set.

 

We all have a view on price but in my opinion, a fair appraisal needs to come from a look across the whole EFE range rather than any particular model. Fully appreciate that there will be other views out there that are equally valid, and quite probably better informed than my own.

 

Rob

[Butler Henderson]

How long ago is that those Heljan Hymeks and DJM Austerities that are sat on shop shelves were made?

How much would they have been if they were last years production which would be a better comparison to the EFE prices. Yes the Austerity appears expensive but that overly complex, and  unnecessarily so, chassis no doubt takes time to assemble.

[micklner]

14 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

No, what Bachmann is doing is buying extra production capability and product lines that are not necessarily constrained by Kader's internal market.

Sorry what does that actually mean.

 

Extra production via numerous sub sellers/maker, why would they bother ?

 

Kader internal market ? no idea what that is .

 

 

[lapford34102]

EFE's  product line and launch were probably in train some time before Covid became an issue and plans often have a momentum of their own and while I can see the logic in the EFE and ex-DJM items admit to being somewhat surprised by the  inclusion of the Hymek. Fair play to Heljan as I doubt it owes them anything after the number of years it's been in their lineup and I'm sure they have a mutually advantageous arrangement with Bachmann. What baffles me is who is the intended customers are. Anyone on a forum will know the score and and any magazine review should explain it provenance. Doing new numbers/liveries/weathering might well appeal to the collector - perhaps one on here would care to give an opinion - or the casual buyer but I do wonder whether there's a wider market as Heljan have their own versions coming at around £20 cheaper with the only apparent difference being the EFE version seemingly having a "better paint job"  whatever that is.

I shall watch from the sidelines with interest.

Stu