EFE Rail launches

[Georgeconna]

23 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Au contraire, put them next to each other.

 

When people question the price their is a story to tell, and point out EFERail has the greater collectors potential, as theres only a few efe 35’s whilst Heljans made nearly 30... EFE does mean Exclusive First Edition, afterall.

 

its a curates egg... one large competitor selling another large competitors product. This will be one of those footnotes in the future history, that either leads to something bigger or smaller, for that reason alone i’m interested in one, but not yet.

It happened once before, with Replica Railways acknowledging Dapol in its packaging of some wagons.

 

 

Its Happening regularly now with plastic kit companies putting each others plastic in their own boxes, IE Airfix and Academy, Revell and Hasegawa, Monogram, MPM Etc. 

 

Some are bargains when compared to the first release under the original makes price (ie Hasegawa Phatoms / F-104's under Revell) whilst you could end up with a Mongram kit from 70/80s with revell therefore getting a dog of a model.

 

 

.

[Halvarras]

Sorry if somebody has already pointed this out but..........the EFE-Rail Hymek is exactly the same as the nearly 17-year-old Heljan model (my D7017 was a 2003 Christmas present) so has the same rudimentary lighting system, unsprung buffers, moulded roof fan grille (even if neatly done), long & short warning horns fixed the wrong way round and no attempt to rectify the headboard bracket issue on those numbered below D7034 - which to me stick out like antlers on a tiger - and the RRP for weathered versions is exactly the same as Kernow's limited edition D600 Warship.

 

OK, just checking........

 

Fortunately I already have all the Hymeks I require.

[howardpidd]

1 hour ago, Neil Phillips said:

Sorry if somebody has already pointed this out but..........the EFE-Rail Hymek is exactly the same as the nearly 17-year-old Heljan model (my D7017 was a 2003 Christmas present) so has the same rudimentary lighting system, unsprung buffers, moulded roof fan grille (even if neatly done), long & short warning horns fixed the wrong way round and no attempt to rectify the headboard bracket issue on those numbered below D7034 - which to me stick out like antlers on a tiger - and the RRP for weathered versions is exactly the same as Kernow's limited edition D600 Warship.

 

OK, just checking........

 

Fortunately I already have all the Hymeks I require.

And the RRP for this vintage model is I believe a mere £159.95. Nuf said!

[D400]

I don't normally comment on these matters as it seems a waste of breath but I think a lot of people have extremely unrealistic ideas of how much model trains cost. 

 

The problem is this was fuelled by how much they cost between 5 and 10 years ago when things were very different - critically the Chinese labour market has vastly changed and workers are now demanding a fair wage for the incredibly skilled and time consuming task of assembling models. This is why models which cost "X" 5 years ago, now cost "Y" today. Too many people assume that cost of production is linked solely to tooling costs, decoration complication and so on. Simple truth is models cost a lot because they have to be assembled by hand, regardless of the date of the tooling used. 

 

Both Hornby and Bachmann have acknowledged this change in the past. Hornby caught the situation early and attempted to reduce production cost using "design clever". We all know how that went down! Bachmann learnt for Hornby's mistake and have acknowledged that their models are not and never will be cheap. As a direct result of this they have put a huge amount of effort into adding "perceived value" to their more recent designs and tooling in an attempt (correct in my view) to justify these high prices. The problem occurs with re-runs of older models which still cost just as much to manufacture in today's climate but don't have this presumed "perceived value" of more recent tooling. 

 

At the end of the day these are hobby items which no one is forcing anymore to buy. If you can afford them then pay the price, if you can't don't. The retailers certainly seem to have faith in the EFE Rail range as several items have already sold out at Bachmann meaning that Bachmann Europe have covered their costs. This is also suggest the runs have been relatively small which is also a wise move. 

 

Also although I've mentioned it before, others seem to be overlooking what is to my eye a superior standard of decoration on these items compared to their release under DJM/Heljan. That I expect was one way in which Bachmann felt they could add perceived value without increasing the cost further. 

 

Bruce

[rembrow]

1 hour ago, Neil Phillips said:

Sorry if somebody has already pointed this out but..........the EFE-Rail Hymek is exactly the same as the nearly 17-year-old Heljan model (my D7017 was a 2003 Christmas present) so has the same rudimentary lighting system, unsprung buffers, moulded roof fan grille (even if neatly done), long & short warning horns fixed the wrong way round and no attempt to rectify the headboard bracket issue on those numbered below D7034 - which to me stick out like antlers on a tiger - and the RRP for weathered versions is exactly the same as Kernow's limited edition D600 Warship.

 

OK, just checking........

 

Fortunately I already have all the Hymeks I require.

Which is exactly the reason I sought out one of the few remaining green Hymeks from the previous Heljan run, that was my first action having read the EFE Rail first products, and saw the price, so thanks Hereford Models, now have a Hymek for £110. Better be careful talking about prices on here as you usually get one or more coming on with a wonderfully insightful comment 'If you don't like the price you don't have to buy it' - well I didn't and I didn't.

[howardpidd]

5 minutes ago, rembrow said:

Which is exactly the reason I sought out one of the few remaining green Hymeks from the previous Heljan run, that was my first action having read the EFE Rail first products, and saw the price, so thanks Hereford Models, now have a Hymek for £110. Better be careful talking about prices on here as you usually get one or more coming on with a wonderfully insightful comment 'If you don't like the price you don't have to buy it' - well I didn't and I didn't.

You're right it didn't take me long to learn that any mention of price here is invariably met with a barrage of outraged sound and fury, accusations of whinging  and advice to find another hobby. The fact is that in the real world value for money is important and can't simply be ignored. I don't  object to paying a fair price for a decent product, but I do object to being manipulated by a huge multinational corporation. 

[Jeff Smith]

It is interesting that some consumer items like TVs actually come down in price as volume increases.  Or in the case of cars the price remains fairly constant but each model year becomes more sophisticated.  People of course replace both periodically.  Model train sales presumably are fairly static and don't benefit so much from an increasing market so volume production discounts can't really apply.  Car and TV production can be automated, model trains are labour intensive and subject to assembly errors, presumably wastage has to be built into the price.....

['CHARD]

9 minutes ago, howardpidd said:

 I don't  object to paying a fair price for a decent product, but I do object to being manipulated by a huge multinational corporation. 

 

Really?  Seriously?  If this was water, electricity, healthcare or 'public' transport I may understand the relevance of the metaphor.

 

Shakes head in despair.

[Legend]

3 minutes ago, 'CHARD said:

 

Really?  Seriously?  If this was water, electricity, healthcare or 'public' transport I may understand the relevance of the metaphor.

 

Shakes head in despair.

Probably just means big in model railway terms . I think in that respect Kader is as big as they come . As has been pointed out though EFE is owned by Bachmann Europe , although Mr Ting , the owner is also the major shareholder in Kader. 

[Class 158 productions]

This may sound ignorant, but how big are Bachmann Europe? I understand that there’s a large American side too Bachmann then in the 90s they started over here With the 158 etc. I always got the impression that they are a bit smaller then we give credit for, given the long lead times on some products. 

[rembrow]

11 minutes ago, Legend said:

Probably just means big in model railway terms . I think in that respect Kader is as big as they come . As has been pointed out though EFE is owned by Bachmann Europe , although Mr Ting , the owner is also the major shareholder in Kader. 

Kader are a big business, not because of their direct model railway activities, but there production for large international toy companies of toy products under contract. 30 years ago they set up large production facilities in Thailand for the western toy company products, it's worth reading about the Kader Thailand factory fire which is little known outside of Thailand, but has the unenviable record of tbe largest loss of life in a factory fire.

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Class 158 productions said:

This may sound ignorant, but how big are Bachmann Europe? I understand that there’s a large American side too Bachmann then in the 90s they started over here With the 158 etc. I always got the impression that they are a bit smaller then we give credit for, given the long lead times on some products. 

Bachmann Industries are a subsidary of Kader Industries, a Chinese company and they started Bachmann Industries Europe in 1989 (based at Barwell) and introduced Branchline in the UK in 1990 using the tools for previous Mainline (Palitoy) products which Kader owned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachmann_Branchline

[Willie Whizz]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

That's not what I was talking about though.

 

It was a rant by the poster about small suppliers not being on the internet and still taking cheques rather than PayPal/credit cards. It was a swipe at cottage industry manufacturers that sell a few bits and pieces for not being major manufacturers. Hence the "little old man" jibe.

 

John from Cambridge Custom Transfers has been on the receiving end a few times. If only he worked harder he'd be a millionaire churning out all those transfers.  

 

It happens in every "Small Supplier" thread from the same poster...

 

 

 

Jason

 

It's not what I was talking about either, but your post calling mine a 'rant' and 'swipe' does rather prove my point ...

 

By the way, I have never directly singled-out CCT or any other small supplier for comment (though that sensitive gentleman was distinctly unpleasant to me at one time, I do recall).  And I do entirely accept that in the end any business person has the perfect right to run their operation the in the way and at the scale they choose; the converse of that has never been my point either.

 

In the context of the current discussion, I just observe that (to use the above analogy) if the burger van is plain white with no lettering, has no chime and doesn't toot its horn to announce its arrival, then it is hardly surprising the owner will have very few customers (effectively only a handful of those already "in the know"); he/she will not convert any new consumers to the delights of his/her specialised product (since virtually none of them will even discover the possibility); prominent voices in the burger market and the media that comment upon it will continue loudly to bemoan the lack of diversity available in what is being produced, consumed and exhibited ("It's all out of the box stuff again; fings ain't what they used ter be"); and McDonalds and their ilk will continue to dominate that market in the minds of the vast, vast majority of consumers because - as far as people know from the information channels they think to make use of these days - they appear to have no way of realising that such alternative burgers even exist, and are worth trying and well worth acquiring a taste for.

 

But if the white van burger man genuinely likes it that way; or feels that because of lifestyle choices, age, infirmity, family issues, other commitments on their time, lack of skills, no motivation or money to do more  ... or yes I'll say it, even if just occasionally it actually is just sheer cussedness and distaste for the modern world ... by all means carry-on; it's his choice and he's fully entitled to work that way.  OK?

Edited August 21, 2020 by Willie Whizz

[Halvarras]

6 hours ago, D400 said:

I don't normally comment on these matters as it seems a waste of breath but I think a lot of people have extremely unrealistic ideas of how much model trains cost. 

 

The problem is this was fuelled by how much they cost between 5 and 10 years ago when things were very different - critically the Chinese labour market has vastly changed and workers are now demanding a fair wage for the incredibly skilled and time consuming task of assembling models. This is why models which cost "X" 5 years ago, now cost "Y" today. Too many people assume that cost of production is linked solely to tooling costs, decoration complication and so on. Simple truth is models cost a lot because they have to be assembled by hand, regardless of the date of the tooling used. 

 

Both Hornby and Bachmann have acknowledged this change in the past. Hornby caught the situation early and attempted to reduce production cost using "design clever". We all know how that went down! Bachmann learnt for Hornby's mistake and have acknowledged that their models are not and never will be cheap. As a direct result of this they have put a huge amount of effort into adding "perceived value" to their more recent designs and tooling in an attempt (correct in my view) to justify these high prices. The problem occurs with re-runs of older models which still cost just as much to manufacture in today's climate but don't have this presumed "perceived value" of more recent tooling. 

 

At the end of the day these are hobby items which no one is forcing anymore to buy. If you can afford them then pay the price, if you can't don't. The retailers certainly seem to have faith in the EFE Rail range as several items have already sold out at Bachmann meaning that Bachmann Europe have covered their costs. This is also suggest the runs have been relatively small which is also a wise move. 

 

Also although I've mentioned it before, others seem to be overlooking what is to my eye a superior standard of decoration on these items compared to their release under DJM/Heljan. That I expect was one way in which Bachmann felt they could add perceived value without increasing the cost further. 

 

Bruce

 

I hear what you're saying (I know it has been said before) and I do try to retain a realistic view of model pricing. A small-scale manufacturer sourcing some products from China explained to me some years back that in a relatively short time scale wages in China went from £10/month to £10/week to £10/day to £10/hour - probably an over-simplification but we certainly saw the after-effects.

When first released Bachmann's superb Presflo wagons could be had for just £7.50 - even less as a four-pack from a certain retailer in the Merseyside area. I can't recall what the price of the ancient Dapol (ex-Airfix) plastic kit was at the time but it struck me that the Bachmann product appeared hugely underpriced considering its complexity and finish. Later on I purchased a Kernow Adams O2 and the exploded diagram is mind-bending, considering that nimble Chinese fingers assemble these things by the thousand, and not in the order we as modellers would do it - components painted and printed first and then assembled. To do this neatly over and over is impressive, no doubt about it. And yes, with models getting ever more complex it's going to cost.

We have got used to the prices of successive runs of existing Heljan products increasing by around a tenner each time. The problem I have with the Hymek is that this time this relative uncomplicated model by current standards has shot up by about £25-30 (on discounted prices) when the remnants of the previous run are still in the shelves, even if in different boxes.

Perhaps the different supply arrangements account for this but I just don't think the Hymek belongs in the top price bracket for an RTR diesel, excellent representation of the prototype though it is (as a Hymek fan I love it!)

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

Sorry if somebody has already pointed this out but..........the EFE-Rail Hymek is exactly the same as the nearly 17-year-old Heljan model (my D7017 was a 2003 Christmas present) so has the same rudimentary lighting system, unsprung buffers, moulded roof fan grille (even if neatly done), long & short warning horns fixed the wrong way round and no attempt to rectify the headboard bracket issue on those numbered below D7034 - which to me stick out like antlers on a tiger - and the RRP for weathered versions is exactly the same as Kernow's limited edition D600 Warship.

 

OK, just checking........

 

Fortunately I already have all the Hymeks I require.

We've already noticed thank you.

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, howardpidd said:

You're right it didn't take me long to learn that any mention of price here is invariably met with a barrage of outraged sound and fury, accusations of whinging  and advice to find another hobby. The fact is that in the real world value for money is important and can't simply be ignored. I don't  object to paying a fair price for a decent product, but I do object to being manipulated by a huge multinational corporation. 

There is absolutely no compulsion at all in the UK to buy something you do not want,  cannot afford, or even more importantly do not need.  

 

This whole price thing has been done well beyond death so many times on here it has turned into the bad penny which forever l keeps turning up.    For years things we might like to have been too expensive for us to buy - that varies between individuals depending on their means, or their credit worthiness, or their tendency to commit larceny - we are all different when it comes to our ability to obtain things we want and of course we don't all want the same things (fortunately).  

 

Model railways, toy trains - call them what you will - are a hobby, not a lifestyle choice, not an essential, but just a bit of fun.   And moaning about prices on here, or in the national media, or even waving a placard outside a factory, won't make a blind bit of difference because if a company doesn't charge enough to make its business profitable it will either go into a different business or go bust.  It really is as simple as that.

 

15 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

This may sound ignorant, but how big are Bachmann Europe? I understand that there’s a large American side too Bachmann then in the 90s they started over here With the 158 etc. I always got the impression that they are a bit smaller then we give credit for, given the long lead times on some products. 

 

15 hours ago, melmerby said:

Bachmann Industries are a subsidary of Kader Industries, a Chinese company and they started Bachmann Industries Europe in 1989 (based at Barwell) and introduced Branchline in the UK in 1990 using the tools for previous Mainline (Palitoy) products which Kader owned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachmann_Branchline

I wonder how many more times I will have to repeat this.  Bachmann Europe ceased to be a subsidiary of Kader Industries in 2017 - on 5 June in that year.  Since then they have been the property of Mr Kenneth Ting who owns all but 2 of the 2 million plus shares in the company.  However in business terms Bachmann Europe has still in many respects worked in the same way as it did when owned by Kader and Mr Kenneth Ting is in any case the senior shareholder in Kader Industries.

 

In 2018 - the last year for which accounts are available - Bachmann Europe turned over £15 million compared with Hornby turning over £35 million in the same year (although their financial year ends are different). Although their financial year ends are also different in the same year Hattons, a retailer and own label commissioner turned over £14 million.  In the same 2018 year end Kader Industries turned over HK$ 612 million on the toy and model train area of their business  (a drop of 20% on the previous year) which equates to roughly £61 million.  

 

As Bachmann Europe's turnover includes more than Bachmann branded model railways it will be seen that it amounts in sales value to less than a quarter of Kader Industries toy and model railway business.   In 2018 Bachmann Europe managed to return to profit despite a small drop in sales volume by value.   Incidentally Bachmann Europe sees as the major risk to its business problems with supply from Kader factories which ought, again, to make very clear why they are diversifying into EFE Rail and adding different sources of supply of big ticket items to their portfolio.  As ever many of the relevant facts are out there on the 'net in freely available information for anyone who can be bothered to look.  hence it doesn't take a degree in Business studies or accountancy to work out what EFE rail is all about as far as Bachmann Europe

 

 

 

[Butler Henderson]

If instead of comparing the list price of the EFE Hymek with a discounted Heljan one you do the reverse the price difference, using Kernows prices drops to £6 

The choice as such is an brand new EFE model or one that has been sat on the shelves for years and is now discounted to... It's not an uncommon find in many other retail lines where new  stock is higher in price and the clever store will promote the new line as being reduced in price to nearly that of the old line when it was new, NB we still have some of the old line available for just....

[lapford34102]

Tongue firmly in cheek again!

Quote

what is to my eye a superior standard of decoration

Aaah, vinyl silk instead of vinyl matt.

I'm undoubtedly fated never to learn the reason for the Hymek being the loco of choice for this exercise so should probably stop worrying about it.

Maybe it will be the first of a number of "rebrandings" to come along. I wonder if Hornby are quietly kicking themselves here. They could have had the Hymek in a nice red box marked Tri-ang, the Co-Bo in a blue and white Dublo box and a Class 27 in a Lima box,

Anyhow time for my medication, after wading through the last few pages think I need it.

 

Have a good day,

Stu

[howardpidd]

Having endured a veritable tsunami of wrath for daring to raise the obviously very touchy subject of price and value for money I'll  just make a final point, yes obviously ultimately it is up to consumers to decide for themselves what to buy or not to buy, that's how markets work. But for the majority of railway modellers in the real world price most definitely is a major factor in making a purchase decision despite what some in this bubble may like to pretend. And if you are contemplating what amounts to a major investment in say a new loco you have a right to be made aware of exactly what it is you're getting for your hard earned bucks. So if some innocent is looking to buy a Hymek for example and they come across this exciting new model railway range haven't they every right to expect it to be what the branding promises: Exclusive and a First Edition, not some other manufacturer's 17 year old product repackaged at a higher price. I rest my case and await summary execution!

[PaulRhB]

4 minutes ago, howardpidd said:

And if you are contemplating what amounts to a major investment in say a new loco you have a right to be made aware of exactly what it is you're getting for your hard earned bucks.

And if you’re that worried about exclusivity then the internet is your friend and you can see from here and other sites it’s a Heljan model

The onus is on the buyer to decide if it’s value for money, much the same as the decision between a Hornby or Rails Terrier, and you can search for OO gauge Hymek and find the cheaper alternative. 
I don’t see that as being misled as there are many items sold under others names in model railways and other fields. The Peco static grass machine is a rebadged WWS one, their servo point motors are rebadged ANE products and Gaugemaster have been selling Noch and MRC products badged as Gaugemaster for 20-30 years. 
You’re aware and have made a decision much like I did with LGB but as long as others want it and decide to buy it it can be a commercial success and might be helping both companies survive long term. 
I got irritated by Rails cancelling my order for their Rocket coach and selling off their allocation of Hornby ones rather than transferring it to cover my order. I said my piece, which hopefully they noted as it affects my decisions in future, but I didn’t expect the hordes to start abandoning them on principle. 

[grahame]

52 minutes ago, howardpidd said:

. . . . for the majority of railway modellers in the real world price most definitely is a major factor in making a purchase decision despite what some in this bubble may like to pretend. 

 

I'm not so sure that is correct, otherwise you'd end up with a load of cheap and dodgy tat. So definitely not the only consideration and probably not always a major factor.

 

People generally don't buy items only on price alone. Surely you decide on what XYZ model you'd like to own then check around for who has the best deal - again not necessarily the price, but factoring in other considerations such as availability, postal/travel costs, ease of acquisition, service support, etc., and certainly not (just) RRP. I'd suggest the major buying factors are more about value and desirability.

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by grahame

[Red Devil]

Idle musings based on no information whatsoever......

 

I wonder what the deal is re the Olivias/Heljan EM1/76 is?

That with pantographs that look like pantographs rather than a 'coat hanger ariel' incorporated into the EFE Rail brand would work for me (yeah I'm aware of other issues).

 

I'm not going to mention the EM2 though.....

[wainwright1]

 

4 minutes ago, Red Devil said:

Idle musings based on no information whatsoever......

 

I wonder what the deal is re the Olivias/Heljan EM1/76 is?

That with pantographs that look like pantographs rather than a 'coat hanger ariel' incorporated into the EFE Rail brand would work for me (yeah I'm aware of other issues).

 

I'm not going to mention the EM2 though.....

 

I wonder if a new run of these would sell, especially if the price were increased. They did produce quite a wide range of livery options on the original run.

I think I saw some of the originals sold through Hattons and even at the Bluebell Railway shop, so probably slow movers.

 

All the best

Ray

[Red Devil]

1 minute ago, wainwright1 said:

 

 

I wonder if a new run of these would sell, especially if the price were increased. They did produce quite a wide range of livery options on the original run.

I think I saw some of the originals sold through Hattons and even at the Bluebell Railway shop, so probably slow movers.

 

All the best

Ray

Yep they did, but many were put off by a few issues and also again, we have the available at your local shop question.

 

How many Hymeks have been turned out?...As I say just musing.

[rembrow]

3 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

If instead of comparing the list price of the EFE Hymek with a discounted Heljan one you do the reverse the price difference, using Kernows prices drops to £6 

The choice as such is an brand new EFE model or one that has been sat on the shelves for years and is now discounted to... It's not an uncommon find in many other retail lines where new  stock is higher in price and the clever store will promote the new line as being reduced in price to nearly that of the old line when it was new, NB we still have some of the old line available for just....

I don't recall anyone comparing prices at different different levels or discounts. For the avoidance of doubt, the Heljan Hymek I purchased was at rrp less 15%, these models have always held their price. So to compare like with like Heljan class 35 from the last run rrp  less 15% is £110.45, EFE class 35 at rrp less 15% is £135.95.

The last Heljan 35 has only been available since last year, so not 'sitting on the shelf for years' and anyone I have a retailer guarantee.

If we similarly compare the J94, IIRC DJ didn't offer a discount at retail, so it was £95.50 compared to the rrp less 15% of the EFE version £127.46 non weathered,  however more starkly when looking at other recent 0-6-0 types, the Peckett B2 retailed at rrp less 10% at £99  and is arguably a mire complex model with outside valve gear. The 94xx due next month is rrp less 15% at £110.46, which is a brand new model.

Ultimately people will make their own choices, but for me this range is ill conceived and offers nothing that can't be obtained by alternatives.

Trains4u I think knocked the nail on the head when he suggested the high pricing was due to another UK based business being inserted in the supply chain, so another mouth has to be fed. Contrast this with the operation of the recent 'challenger' businesses in the hobby - Accurascale, Cavalex, Revolution etc, all operating as lean businesses, who having been sell direct organisations are now moving into working with retailers. My local model shop has just become an Accurascale retailer, the approval was done in 2 days, he was on their website the next day and his first order arrived the next day.