Viability of Swiss Railways in a Home Layout.

[scottystitch]

I thought I had settled on my next big project, after the in progress one, being a "system" layout taking elements from the railways of the Isle of Man (Ramsey, Peel, & St John's), all housed in a dedicated railway room - yet to be contemplated, let alone built.  However, over the last year I've taken more than a passing interest in the railways of Switzerland, and so my jury has been sent back out to reconsider it's verdict.

 

I am still not entirely au fait with the different systems in place in Switzerland, such as SBB, RhB, etc, but it is definitely the mountainous variety that interests me the most, although I lean towards adhesion, rather than rack and pinion. 

 

As is my want, I have been doodling in any rail, looking at scale replicas of the Alp Grum and  Ospizio Bernina track plans, in 1/160 on N gauge track, which seems quite achievable in the current railway room size of 207 by 106 inches.  The only thing that I have come across is the curve at Alp Grum, if I have scaled things right, seems to be only a nominal 9 inches in 1/160. Is that right?  Are the curves that sharp sharp on these lines?

 

What I'm not so sure about is the availability of suitable rolling stock.  I appreciate that Kato do quite a bit of locomotives and train packs, and I've come across MDSModell, but what else is out there, both for passenger and freight?

 

My enthuisisam for model railways has always been more about operating rather than building; scenery particularly doesn't tickle my fancy that much so my biggest concern, I suppose, is the finishing scenery touches (how many trees??!!) although the initial hillside landscaping isn't too disheartning for me.  With this in mind, I'm still in two minds.  Will there be enough operational interest and will the scenery building be too much...

 

What enthuses me about Swiss railways:

 

1 - Prototypically short formations

 

2 - Prototypically steep inclines

 

3 - (perversley, given what I said above) lots of trees

 

4 - Loco hauled trains

 

5 - single track

 

6 - There doesn't seem a lot to get bogged down with, in terms of eras and locos, etc.

 

7 - Simple stations with low platforms and less than ornate buildings and canopies

 

 

At the risk of @PaulRhB thinking I'm stalking him, I was thinking I might start by building a module based on his Swiss modular concept, detailed elswhere on RMWeb.

 

 

I will post a copy of my rough AnyRail doodlings later.

 

The thoughts of the esteemed collective would be gratefully received.

 

Best

 

Scott.

Edited August 5, 2020 by scottystitch
Typos

[scottystitch]

2 hours ago, scottystitch said:

 

 

As is my want, I have been doodling in any rail, looking at scale replicas of the Alp Grum and  Ospizio Bernina track plans, in 1/160 on N gauge track, which seems quite achievable in the current railway room size of 207 by 106 inches.  The only thing that I have come across is the curve at Alp Grum, if I have scaled things right, seems to be only a nominal 9 inches in 1/160. Is that right?  Are the curves that sharp sharp on these lines?

 

 

 

It seems I made my first Swiss schoolboy error.  It should be 1/150, shouldn't it?...

[jpendle]

9 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

 

It seems I made my first Swiss schoolboy error.  It should be 1/150, shouldn't it?...

 

European and US N are 1:160, Japanese N is 1:150, and UK N is 1:148.

 

I don't know where that leaves the Kato RhB Glacier Express though, but they all run on 9mm track.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[scottystitch]

9 minutes ago, jpendle said:

 

European and US N are 1:160, Japanese N is 1:150, and UK N is 1:148.

 

I don't know where that leaves the Kato RhB Glacier Express though, but they all run on 9mm track.

 

Regards,

 

John P

Yes.  It being a European prototype, I assumed it would be 160. However the Kato stuff is clearly 150 on the packaging.

 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/kato-europe-brand5.html

 

I should have checked first instead of looking like an amateur...

 

Scott.

[JimFin]

Its an anomalous scale / gauge combination - but looks very good!

 

Not sure about other curves in the Bernina line but the Brusio spiral ranges between 50m and 70m radious - so at 150 scale, between 33 and 46 mm - certainly, I would not be surprised if the Alp Glum curve was less than that. Stock on the Bernina Line is generally shorter than elsewhere on RhB to allow for that situation.

 

Stock is a bit constrained by the unusual scale/gauge combination but between Kato and MDS there is a growing range.

[scottystitch]

This is teh view from google maps, with the measuring tool.. Resolution isn't great but I think its close enough to the centre of teh tracks and looks like it's dividing the circle so it's close enough for government work:

 

 

298ft/150 = 1.99ft

 

* 12= 23.88" (*25.4=606.5mm).

 

Radius 11.94". Let's call it 12".

 

So obviously I miss measured the first time, or messed up teh calculation because even at 160, it would be 22.35".

 

So...as you were.

 

Best

Scott

 

 

[PaulRhB]

1. I don’t mind people taking ideas or copying any of my daft schemes

 

2. You can push boundaries of realism a bit as long as it’s based on a what if rather than actual place / time as long as you have the story in your mind and don’t mind the odd expert saying you wouldn’t see that!

 

Ok, N gauge Swiss railways, you’ve got the SBB and BLS standard gauge that cross the Alps as well as several of the metre gauge lines, RhB, MGB and MOB are three of the largest. 
For standard gauge you’ve got various manufacturers and the biggest choice of stock, freight and passenger. Shorty trains are mostly units these days and the odd short freight. 

Now my main interest, the RhB!

 

With the RhB metre gauge there’s not much rtr but there’s virtually nothing for other lines without expensive brass. The Kato & MDS is 1/150 and compromises on the gauge to use N gauge track to give it a wider audience, ABmodell do a wider range of passenger and freight in proper Nm on 6.5mm gauge but it’s a lot more expensive. 
 

The Kato & MDS ranges are slowly expanding but there’s only a couple of covered freight vans so far. Pirata in Italy have done a few Ltd edition brass  flat wagons and  some coaches based on Kato EW1’s and are releasing the four wheel covered vans this year in theory. Most of us using the Kato & MDS have been supplementing the RhB stuff with N gauge models of similar prototypes with home made transfers and kitbashing other N models. There are also a few bits on Shapeways to match them. 
 

The RhB is all adhesion but it’s split into several lines which see different emphasis on the stock used and train lengths. 
The Albula line from Chur to St Moritz sees a mix of loco hauled and on sets of around 8 coaches, The new Albula sets include a driving trailer to save running round. The Allegra 3 unit rail car is classed as a loco, as all three cars are powered, so you see mostly Ge4/4iii or an Allegra on those sets. It’s also the key route for the Glacier Express, GEX, which continues to Disentis and onto the MGB system. 
There’s also the Bernina Express that runs from Chur - St Moritz - Tirano known as the BEX, more on that later

Around Chur and Landquart there are 4 unit Allegra’s with only one power car used on commuter services on the relatively flat valley lines. 
 

Chur to Klosters sees mainly similar 8 coach sets that split between the Davos line and Vereina Tunnel and these are going to be replaced by the Capricorn sets over the next few years. 
 

The Vereina Tunnel sees mostly car shuttles through to the Engadine with a few through passenger trains on to Samedan. 
 

The Davos line runs short loco push pull sets and older rail car sets between Davos and Filisur and these again will be displaced by Capricorn sets over the next three years. 

The Engadine line from Scuol to Samedan is very similar to the Davos line in that it’s been 4-5 coach sets loco hauled push pull for many years and again will soon be Capricorn territory. 
 

St a Moritz to Tirano is DC rather than AC so you don’t see the Ge4/4ii & iii’s on that line just the dual voltage 3 car Allegra’s and the older Bernina railcars. The Bernina still uses coaches seen all over the system. 
 

Chur to Arosa is now exclusively Allegra haulage and they pull additional coaches as required and all the freight. The Arosa line was originally DC but converted to AC in 97 with loco hauled push pull sets replacing the rail car sets. 
 

Freight is widespread over the whole system with a few block trains, many short mixed ones and a lot of mainly containerised traffic popped on the back of the passenger services. Heavier freight is mostly in the hands of the Ge6/6ii’s although as the 4/4ii’s and iii’s lose some of their passenger work to Allegra’s and Capricorn units these will take over the freight from what I understand. 
Most mid size stations have a 4 wheel Tm series shunter to hook freight on and off passenger trains or through freights to the container cranes or industry sidings. Larger stations can have two or three including the larger 6 wheel and bogie shunters. 
 

So the RhB is changing quite fast with many track improvements seeing double track dynamic loops and modernisation of stations to remove foot crossings. 

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

This is teh view from google maps, with the measuring tool.. Resolution isn't great but I think its close enough to the centre of teh tracks and looks like it's dividing the circle so it's close enough for government work:

 

 

298ft/150 = 1.99ft

 

* 12= 23.88" (*25.4=606.5mm).

 

Radius 11.94". Let's call it 12".

 

So obviously I miss measured the first time, or messed up teh calculation because even at 160, it would be 22.35".

 

So...as you were.

 

Best

Scott

 

 

The Bernina and Arosa lines do have sharper curves than the main system so the train lengths tend to be 8 or less vehicles. The Albula line can be 12-14!

[scottystitch]

41 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

1. I don’t mind people taking ideas or copying any of my daft schemes

 

2. You can push boundaries of realism a bit as long as it’s based on a what if rather than actual place / time as long as you have the story in your mind and don’t mind the odd expert saying you wouldn’t see that!

 

Ok, N gauge Swiss railways, you’ve got the SBB and BLS standard gauge that cross the Alps as well as several of the metre gauge lines, RhB, MGB and MOB are three of the largest. 
For standard gauge you’ve got various manufacturers and the biggest choice of stock, freight and passenger. Shorty trains are mostly units these days and the odd short freight. 

Now my main interest, the RhB!

 

With the RhB metre gauge there’s not much rtr but there’s virtually nothing for other lines without expensive brass. The Kato & MDS is 1/150 and compromises on the gauge to use N gauge track to give it a wider audience, ABmodell do a wider range of passenger and freight in proper Nm on 6.5mm gauge but it’s a lot more expensive. 
 

The Kato & MDS ranges are slowly expanding but there’s only a couple of covered freight vans so far. Pirata in Italy have done a few Ltd edition brass  flat wagons and  some coaches based on Kato EW1’s and are releasing the four wheel covered vans this year in theory. Most of us using the Kato & MDS have been supplementing the RhB stuff with N gauge models of similar prototypes with home made transfers and kitbashing other N models. There are also a few bits on Shapeways to match them. 
 

The RhB is all adhesion but it’s split into several lines which see different emphasis on the stock used and train lengths. 
The Albula line from Chur to St Moritz sees a mix of loco hauled and on sets of around 8 coaches, The new Albula sets include a driving trailer to save running round. The Allegra 3 unit rail car is classed as a loco, as all three cars are powered, so you see mostly Ge4/4iii or an Allegra on those sets. It’s also the key route for the Glacier Express, GEX, which continues to Disentis and onto the MGB system. 
There’s also the Bernina Express that runs from Chur - St Moritz - Tirano known as the BEX, more on that later

Around Chur and Landquart there are 4 unit Allegra’s with only one power car used on commuter services on the relatively flat valley lines. 
 

Chur to Klosters sees mainly similar 8 coach sets that split between the Davos line and Vereina Tunnel and these are going to be replaced by the Capricorn sets over the next few years. 
 

The Vereina Tunnel sees mostly car shuttles through to the Engadine with a few through passenger trains on to Samedan. 
 

The Davos line runs short loco push pull sets and older rail car sets between Davos and Filisur and these again will be displaced by Capricorn sets over the next three years. 

The Engadine line from Scuol to Samedan is very similar to the Davos line in that it’s been 4-5 coach sets loco hauled push pull for many years and again will soon be Capricorn territory. 
 

St a Moritz to Tirano is DC rather than AC so you don’t see the Ge4/4ii & iii’s on that line just the dual voltage 3 car Allegra’s and the older Bernina railcars. The Bernina still uses coaches seen all over the system. 
 

Chur to Arosa is now exclusively Allegra haulage and they pull additional coaches as required and all the freight. The Arosa line was originally DC but converted to AC in 97 with loco hauled push pull sets replacing the rail car sets. 
 

Freight is widespread over the whole system with a few block trains, many short mixed ones and a lot of mainly containerised traffic popped on the back of the passenger services. Heavier freight is mostly in the hands of the Ge6/6ii’s although as the 4/4ii’s and iii’s lose some of their passenger work to Allegra’s and Capricorn units these will take over the freight from what I understand. 
Most mid size stations have a 4 wheel Tm series shunter to hook freight on and off passenger trains or through freights to the container cranes or industry sidings. Larger stations can have two or three including the larger 6 wheel and bogie shunters. 
 

So the RhB is changing quite fast with many track improvements seeing double track dynamic loops and modernisation of stations to remove foot crossings. 

 

Excellent sumnation, thanks for that.  It confirms most of what I had gathered, but a good proportion was all news to me.

 

Unfortunately, though it presents a problem.  I am very taken with the GE4/4 2s and coaching stock and I'd want to run them, but I'm also particularly taken with the Alp Grum and Bernina section of the network... But It seems I can't do both...unless "what if the line was AC..."

 

Best

Scott.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

40 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

 

Unfortunately, though it presents a problem.  I am very taken with the GE4/4 2s and coaching stock and I'd want to run them, but I'm also particularly taken with the Alp Grum and Bernina section of the network... But It seems I can't do both...unless "what if the line was AC..."

 

Being a serious RhB modeller you’d never catch me mixing AC & DC

. . . . oops

 

 

 

I think there are options to mix them in reality. Basing a layout on Pontresina or St Moritz with a few changes is one way. A unspecified DC branch from a freelance station like I did to run Bernina stock on my old Rhätia layout or just run one or the other at different time’s. 

[scottystitch]

Hehe! Okay that sounds reasonable. 

 

Scott

[brigo]

Here's a drawing of the original track arrangment around Alp Grum, I was going to scan it out of a book I have, but like so many things it's already available on the internet.

Google got you pretty close, the radius was 45 m

 

Brian

 

[scottystitch]

1 hour ago, brigo said:

Here's a drawing of the original track arrangment around Alp Grum, I was going to scan it out of a book I have, but like so many things it's already available on the internet.

Google got you pretty close, the radius was 45 m

 

Brian

 

 

Thank you very much for that, that's very interesting and helpful.  I'm guessing the second track on the 180 curve was placed outside this original one.

 

Great drawing.

 

Best

 

Scott.

[Satan's Goldfish]

4 hours ago, scottystitch said:

 

Excellent sumnation, thanks for that.  It confirms most of what I had gathered, but a good proportion was all news to me.

 

Unfortunately, though it presents a problem.  I am very taken with the GE4/4 2s and coaching stock and I'd want to run them, but I'm also particularly taken with the Alp Grum and Bernina section of the network... But It seems I can't do both...unless "what if the line was AC..."

 

Best

Scott.

 

 

 

You don't have to rely on a prototype location if you want the tight curves but the 'wrong' voltage stock; there were never built plans for the RhB such as from Thusis down to Belinzona (over the San Bernadino pass?) Which probably would have had tight curves and shorter trains like the Bernina, but you could imagine it was electrified at the higher AC voltage so you could run ge4/4ii with coaches on tighter curves.

[JimFin]

Rule 1

 

[David Bell]

14 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Being a serious RhB modeller you’d never catch me mixing AC & DC

. . . . oops

 

 

 

I think there are options to mix them in reality. Basing a layout on Pontresina or St Moritz with a few changes is one way. A unspecified DC branch from a freelance station like I did to run Bernina stock on my old Rhätia layout or just run one or the other at different time’s. 

Pontresina would make a good model. It was one on my to do list!

Cheers

David

[scottystitch]

What is the climbing performance like with the Kato and MDS RhB locomotives, with say max 8 coaches.  is 3% comfortable, around the bends paricularly? 

 

Best

 

Scott

[Jim Easterbrook]

Soon after I got my Kato Ge 4/4 III I did some basic tests and found it could pull 6 GEX coaches up a 10% slope! (Yes, I really do mean 1 in 10.) Kato say the max gradient is 5%, and I'm planning on 4.5% when I eventually get round to building a Brusio spiral inspired layout. Here's a test video.

 

[scottystitch]

38 minutes ago, Jim Easterbrook said:

Soon after I got my Kato Ge 4/4 III I did some basic tests and found it could pull 6 GEX coaches up a 10% slope! (Yes, I really do mean 1 in 10.) Kato say the max gradient is 5%, and I'm planning on 4.5% when I eventually get round to building a Brusio spiral inspired layout. Here's a test video.

 

 

Excellent, thank you. 

 

My scribblings incoporate 3%, so that should work just fine.

 

Thanks again.

 

Best

Scott.

[PaulRhB]

There’s a minor difference between what they run up with momentum and what they can start a train on  
I’ve done a test and I found they would start 6 coaches on the straight on a 5% grade with some slipping of heavy on the throttle but it reduced to 3% on an 18 inch diameter curve. 
I settled on 2% as an easier grade simply because I know I can start and stop an 8 coach train on a curve on that. 

[scottystitch]

Experimentation is key...

 

Best

Scott

[Jim Easterbrook]

I tried starting on my brief 10% (straight) test and it was fine. The Ge 4/4 III is significantly heavier (83 g) than the Ge 4/4 II (57 g) and mine is certainly a better runner.

[scottystitch]

Okay, here is my starter for 10 with some semi-rough anyrail sketching.

 

On the lower deck we have Poschiavo, leading into the mountains....

 

Where on teh upper deck we have a long twisty climb up to Alp Grum,  the forested section then gives way to the open mountain landscape before arriving at Bernina.  Al stations are to scale.

 

All stations are leve, but elswhere the grade is a more or less constant 3% (to be confirmed with experimentation).  Bernina sits a nominal 22 inches above Poschiavo.

 

Two fiddle yards book-end the layout.  Baseboards all open frame (perhaps obviously).

 

Now, I know, I know, it's big and it's complicated and it's logistically a lot of work> I'm not saying I'll build this, but we are talking about a potential layout of a lifetime, and believe me I have a lot of these hair brained schemes on my hard-drive.  The good thing abou the anyrail plans is, I can export them to train player and operate them virtually to see if they are much cop and have enough to entertain.

 

From what I have researched there should be scope for a regalar passenger service, some with tail traffic freight, and also dedicated freight.  I may or may not change the names of the stations, depending on how I feel about the AC and the Ge4/4 II situation.

 

In any case, any Swiss foray will involve a module first, if at all, as I said earlier.

 

Getting these ideas out of my head helps with my health - seriosuly you've no idea how many ideas like this I have!

 

Best

 

Scott.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

44 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

I may or may not change the names of the stations,

You could put the real ones on and have an alternative set that go on top. I’ve done this in OO by fixing nameboards to a back plate cut from a steel soft drink can with double sided tape. I then glue a small magnet on the inside of the wall behind the name so the other just sticks on top when needed  

Edited August 6, 2020 by PaulRhB

[MrTea]

13 hours ago, scottystitch said:

What is the climbing performance like with the Kato and MDS RhB locomotives, with say max 8 coaches.  is 3% comfortable, around the bends paricularly? 

 

Best

 

Scott

 

Hi Scott,

 

I've been following this thread over the past couple of days - although I'm slightly late to the party!

 

I've got 4% gradients on my Veja Megstra layout and both Kato locos handle up to 10 coach loads with ease. The GEX coaches and the EW1 stock both feel pretty lightweight and are very free running which I'm sure helps. 

 

Both the Ge 4/4 ii and iii have 2 traction tires at opposite corners (1 per bogie) so you still get 6 wheels collecting current.

 

I love the scope and the ambition of your scheme and with the space you have to play with I think fitting in a system would be a great way to go. I was quite tempted with Alp Grum as a location when I started looking into places I could use for inspiration. There's something magnificent about how the station is perched at the top of the hill and then the line clings to the cliff backwards and forwards as it heads down the valley towards Poschiavo.

 

This map of the Bernina line might be of use:

 

Look forward to seeing more on your plans as they develop.

 

Ian

Edited August 6, 2020 by MrTea
Typo