Viability of Swiss Railways in a Home Layout.

[MrTea]

4 hours ago, Jim Easterbrook said:

I tried starting on my brief 10% (straight) test and it was fine. The Ge 4/4 III is significantly heavier (83 g) than the Ge 4/4 II (57 g) and mine is certainly a better runner.

 

I've found that as well Jim. Although the Ge 4/4 III isn't as 'pretty' to my eyes the way it runs is definitely more pleasing and it starts and stops lovely and smoothly. Not sure why but the Ge 4/4 II just doesn't seem to have quite the same performance.

 

TBH one of my reasons for getting into N scale RhB in the first place was good experience with Kato mechanisms when I has a small US themed layout.

[Jim Easterbrook]

I don't know why my Ge 4/4 II isn't performing as well as I'd like. I've had it apart several times to clean the commutator and brushes. This has made short term improvements to slow running, but it's back to normal the next day.

 

I've seen adverts saying it has a five pole motor. I can say with 100% certainty that mine has a three pole motor. I don't know how significant this is. (I'm a complete beginner at model railways.)

[David Bell]

Hi Scott,

Like you I am constantly drawing up plans! They usually get in the way of current projects.

Your RhB plan is really good. I might be tempted to make one of the fiddle yards scenic then you could include Tirano as well.

I hope you do build it.As you say though it is a layout of a lifetime project.

Cheers

David 

[Glorious NSE]

On 05/08/2020 at 22:04, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

You don't have to rely on a prototype location if you want the tight curves but the 'wrong' voltage stock; there were never built plans for the RhB such as from Thusis down to Belinzona (over the San Bernadino pass?) Which probably would have had tight curves and shorter trains like the Bernina, but you could imagine it was electrified at the higher AC voltage so you could run ge4/4ii with coaches on tighter curves.

Also Scuol-Tarasp over the Austrian border to Landeck is another good "what if" - something that's had real-life studies done on building it more recently too!
https://www.gr.ch/DE/institutionen/verwaltung/bvfd/ds/projekte/nvv/Bahnverbindung Scuol - Landeck/Seiten/default.aspx
(The link to download the PDFs is on the right of the page - lots of other fun "what ifs" there as well for any proto-freelancing RhB fans!)

One plus with modelling the Bernina accurately is that you should be able to model most of the stock - Kato makes the 3 car Allegra units that pull most trains, plus the Bernina Express panoramic cars -  Pirata are producing the older railcars (not cheap, but for the present day you want more Allegra which are relatively affordable.)
Short Bernina versions of the various other hauled coach builds are available as 3d prints, you might be able to kitbash the Kato ones down in length too. 
The Bernina doesn't see freight trains but the freight is worked as tail traffic on the regular passenger trains, wagons (as with all bits of the RhB) are harder to find in the scale, but there are kitbash routes - logs to Tirano seems to be common so the Pirata wagon could help here.

Doesn't mean you *have* to do it accurately and exclude the other stock available of course - but if you wanted to it wouldn't be hugely hard to cover the bulk of the stock needs.

[MichaelE]

My RhB line started out as standard gauge for ÖBB. I started watching cab ride videos on YouTube of RhB trains and got hooked. I had no more space for another track, so I laid in a third rail for meter gauge and now it is a dual gauge line.

 

Unfortunately, I do not yet have any RhB equipment since it was stolen from either US Customs or USPS on its way from Germany.

 

I will be ordering another Allegra ABe 8/12 soon, but this one is the white advertising model. It is all the MSL still has in stock. That is, if someone doesn't buy it before I can order it in another couple of weeks.

[Salmotrutta]

On 07/08/2020 at 05:23, Jim Easterbrook said:

I don't know why my Ge 4/4 II isn't performing as well as I'd like. I've had it apart several times to clean the commutator and brushes. This has made short term improvements to slow running, but it's back to normal the next day.

 

I've seen adverts saying it has a five pole motor. I can say with 100% certainty that mine has a three pole motor. I don't know how significant this is. (I'm a complete beginner at model railways.)

You should not be getting a dirty commutator that quickly unless the brushes have got oiled up and gone soft. Unfortunately I have had new locos which have either been over-oiled at the factory or have so much grease thrown at them the gear box is "fudged-up". Luckily I haven't had to replace brushes and the gearboxes have been improved by removing the excess grease and adding one drop of electrolube on the gears to "thin it out" a bit. However sometimes it's the mechanism which all the bits are at the wrong side of the tolerances and it just doesn't want to work; the only solution I found is to get a manufacturer to replace the chassis. Sometimes it sorts itself out with a lot of running-in so that's worth a try. Hope this helps!

[bantam61668]

If you want locos (Ge 4/4ii) and spirals you could always model part of the  Albulabahn (Bergün-Preda) although there are no stations in-between to model.

I've always quite fancied modelling somewhere on the Sagliains-Scuol-Tarasp section mostly for the variety of trains and the stunning scenery. This section has the hourly Pontresina to Scuol-Tarasp service, usually a Ge 4/4ii on a short push-pull set and an hourly Disnetis/Muster to Scuol-Tarasp which is usually a Ge 4/4ii on 7-8 coaches. There are also a couple of freights a day to Scuol-Tarasp and it is a semi-regular route for historic workings (krokodils and steam). I've always wanted to model Scuol-Tarasp which I think would make a great terminus station model but never had the space.

One day I will get those boxes full of Bemo stock out the loft and get to work on a layout....

[David Bell]

27 minutes ago, bantam61668 said:

If you want locos (Ge 4/4ii) and spirals you could always model part of the  Albulabahn (Bergün-Preda) although there are no stations in-between to model.

I've always quite fancied modelling somewhere on the Sagliains-Scuol-Tarasp section mostly for the variety of trains and the stunning scenery. This section has the hourly Pontresina to Scuol-Tarasp service, usually a Ge 4/4ii on a short push-pull set and an hourly Disnetis/Muster to Scuol-Tarasp which is usually a Ge 4/4ii on 7-8 coaches. There are also a couple of freights a day to Scuol-Tarasp and it is a semi-regular route for historic workings (krokodils and steam). I've always wanted to model Scuol-Tarasp which I think would make a great terminus station model but never had the space.

One day I will get those boxes full of Bemo stock out the loft and get to work on a layout....

Funny that, I have a stash of those red boxes in my loft too!

[Satan's Goldfish]

The other method is to go with a track plan from a different Swiss rail company and transpose it to the RhB. For example, I've always like the junction station at Hergiswil on the ZB (former LSE/SBB Brunigbahn), and the terminus at Engelberg (LSE) before it was remodelled had a lot of potential too.

[scottystitch]

I've done quite a bit of reading (albeit online) over the weekend, but still can't find the answer to why the Bernina section of the RhB is DC whilst the rest is AC.  Is there are technical and/or practical reason?  I would have thought it presents problems with interoperability of stock, and it certainly means segrgated lines and platforms at St Moritz and Pontresina (although I understand there is a platform that can be used for either systems, at the flick of a signallers switch, but obviosulty not both at the same time).

 

So, after amalgamation, why hasn't it been converted to AC ?

 

What am I missing?

 

I'm betting it's something fundamental.

 

Best

 

Scott.

[PaulRhB]

7 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

but still can't find the answer to why the Bernina section of the RhB is DC whilst the rest is AC.

Purely the historical acquisition and the way they operate the RhB in separate lines has meant there’s not been the financial incentive to spend the vast amount converting it. 
The Allegra’s being dual voltage is the first sign that once it comes up for major renewal it probably will be converted. The Arosa line only got converted once a major renewal was needed of the stock and infrastructure. There was a scheme to move the line into Chur underground but the money wasn’t there so just the power upgrade went ahead with a temporary change to loco haulage until the Allegra’s came into service. 
 

[PaulRhB]

The Capricorn’s are the first fundamental change in the way the RhB operates passenger services since the railcar sets and push pull driving trailers came in eliminating run rounds on some lines. The management now seem to have decided the still large reliance on shunting staff needs to be reduced. It does mean they are losing some flexibility in adding a wagon or coach on but I assume the cost balance overall justifies it for them. 

[MikeB]

I read somewhere that the heavier wires needed for DC are better suited to the peak currents needed on the steep climbs and generated by the braking going downhill. I don't know if that is true or not.  The smaller clearances possible with 1000V DC may be less of a problem with the street running and the tunnels and galleries, although that did not stop the Arosa line being converted. AC has the advantage of less and lighter infrastructure, but given the DC system already exists from the time of the independent Bernina Bahn, the weather and the need for lots of masts on the sharp curves, perhaps the more robust DC system is preferred?  Plus of course, the ABe 4/4/III and other DC shunting units are still in use. So overall, no case to replace what still works.

 

The overhead switching is quite complex - here is the end of Platform 6 at St Moritz last year  

[PaulRhB]

29 minutes ago, MikeB said:

the heavier wires needed for DC are better suited to the peak currents needed on the steep climbs and generated by the braking going downhill.

There’s probably several reasons that go into the decision but the current loading must be similar on the Oberalp pass and that’s AC so there’s probably trade offs at both ends of the scale. I understand the cut down version of the Arosa conversion was because major works were needed on the DC equipment so they decided to bring it inline as there was an opportunity in the rolling stock plan too. I get the impression without both it may well have stayed as it was. Like I said above the Allegra’s are dual voltage so probably next time stock needs replacing more Allegra’s will move over to the Bernina as the Capricorn’s are online? That would ultimately shift the factors next time the power system needs substantial upgrades. 

[GoingUnderground]

If you want to go with rack drive, then you could model the Furka Oberalp (FO - Really, this isn't a wind-up), or the Brig Visp Zermatt (BVZ) now amalgamated as the Matterhorn Gottard Bahn (MGB), both of which are metre gauge, just like the RhB. BEMO make RTR stock for all 3 lines, but there's more for the RhB as it is the larger network. The MGB is a single line, running from Disentis, where there is an end-on junction with the RhB, to Zermatt. Togetehr the RhB and MGB are the route for the Glacier Express.

 

If you fancy a bit of rack drive steam, there's the Dampfbahn Furka Bergstreke (DFB) which used to be part of the FO route until the Furka Base Tunnel was driven between Realp and Overwald. The MGB trains, including the Glacier Express now use the Furka Base Tunel and the DFB run steam locos over the old route. No need to worry about any catenary.

 

At Visp the station are shared with the SBB standard gauge lines which go on into Italy via the Simplon Tunnel at Brig, where the MGB line runs through the station forecourt..

 

The photos were taken in 2014, the one of DFB No 1 at Oberwald after traversing the DFB frm Realf, and the FO No. 36 at Fiesch on its way from Disentis to Zermatt.

Edited August 10, 2020 by GoingUnderground
Added images

[MrTea]

Hi Scott,

 

There’s a pretty amazing layout based on the Bernina Railway on YouTube:

It’s HOm but the model covers some of the locations you’re considering. 
 

Ian

[scottystitch]

Thanks for all the replies and thoughts on the current supply, that rather clears things up.  It also makes it easier to imagine that my Bernina line might be AC if ther eis a suggestion or supposition that it may happen in tehn real world eventually anyway.  I'll just bring it forward, if need be! 

 

Best

Scott.

 

 

[scottystitch]

12 hours ago, MrTea said:

Hi Scott,

 

There’s a pretty amazing layout based on the Bernina Railway on YouTube:

It’s HOm but the model covers some of the locations you’re considering. 
 

Ian

Hi Ian,

 

That is pretty amazing, as you say, and it imagines pretty much perfectly how I saw the top level of my sketch in my mind's eye.  It appears the builder(s) has(have) a mideel level for storage and fiddling. I hgadn't thought of that.  If I had the space for three levels, I'd beinclined to make it scenic, but then that's always been my trouble, over-ambitiousness.  But yes, a brilliant model railway, and the type of thing I've always wanted - a railway system with a prurpose.

 

@David Bell suggested Tirano as a scenic fiddle yard.  That's not a bad shout, but what puts me off is the fact that I'd want to include the Italian standard gauge services and they would be a different scale, even if they were available as models...  I could obviously just model the Bernina line tracks, but would it jar me that it was a half representation of a station?  EDIT: I see now that the Tirano station really is already separate from teh Italian standard gauge station, so no problem.

 

Best

 

Scott.

Edited August 11, 2020 by scottystitch

[scottystitch]

I found a website for the Berninabahn model railway.

 

Fantastic stuff!:

 

http://www.berninamodell.ch/index.html

 

Best

Scott.

[scottystitch]

Surveying th eline via Google satelite, I've come across this little gem at Campocologno, between Tirano and Brusio.  It appears to be a timber loading terminal and a Fuel or oil unloading terminal combined.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.2356554,10.1405043,41a,35y,43.5h/data=!3m1!1e3

 

It looks like two roads for oil tankers and then there is at least one turnout carrying rails onto the concrete hard standing for the timber.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.2359536,10.1398688,2a,15y,140.21h,87.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stKsovsg32q2_isGJY2wlLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

There is also a ramped platform, presumably for loading/unloading a van?

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.2359536,10.1398688,2a,90y,72.96h,73.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stKsovsg32q2_isGJY2wlLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Perfect!

 

Best

Scott.

Edited August 11, 2020 by scottystitch

[David Bell]

The station building at Campocologno is a gem too. Very Italien looking.

[Glorious NSE]

16 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Like I said above the Allegra’s are dual voltage so probably next time stock needs replacing more Allegra’s will move over to the Bernina as the Capricorn’s are online? That would ultimately shift the factors next time the power system needs substantial upgrades. 

I'd be amazed if the number of Allegra purchased wasn't based on cascading the last 3x pair of Bernina railcars out of use at some future point to be honest!

 

22 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

Surveying th eline via Google satelite, I've come across this little gem at Campocologno, between Tirano and Brusio.  It appears to be a timber loading terminal and a Fuel or oil unloading terminal combined.

It's also an intermodal terminal - check the crane with the spreader bars. 

If you look at the RhB website (make sure you switch to the German language version, as lots doesn't show up on the English version) there's an awful lot of info on freight traffic capability, what different terminals can handle, and even GA drawings of many of the wagon types.

[scottystitch]

11 minutes ago, Glorious NSE said:

It's also an intermodal terminal - check the crane with the spreader bars. 

If you look at the RhB website (make sure you switch to the German language version, as lots doesn't show up on the English version) there's an awful lot of info on freight traffic capability, what different terminals can handle, and even GA drawings of many of the wagon types.

I did notice the crane, yes.

 

Thanks for the website info.  Some great information there. 

 

Best

 

Scott.

[GoingUnderground]

The Bernina line was built as DC from new and was a separate company to the RhB, even though the idea was always to meet the RhB in the Engadin, initially as Samaden but that was changed to St. Moritz before the line opened. At the time DC was the electrification method of choice for almost all railways, and the Berninabahn opened in stages between 1908 and 1910.

 

When the Berninabahn opened in 1910, the RhB was still steam hauled. It experimented with electrification from 1913 onwards at 11,000v AC at 16.7 Hz single phase after a study of other systems. The first line electrified was the Engadin line, from St Moritz to Schuls, and its success is said to have prompted the Swiss to adopt 15,000v AC at 16.7 Hz as the Swiss mainline standard.

 

The Bernina line wasn't taken over by the RhB until 1943 to save it from financial collapse during WW2, slight problem with a lack of tourist traffic due to closed borders.

 

If you want to read more about the Bernina line, the RhB, the FO,  and the BVZ lines, try to find a copy of "Metre Gauge Railways in South and East Switzerland" by John Marshall, published in 1974 by David & Charles - ISBN 0 7153 6408 1.

Edited August 11, 2020 by GoingUnderground

[scottystitch]

(version 2 (and it won't be the last version, by a long chalk. No sir.)

 

Whilst the stations might be true to life and to scale, I can only see the countryside between them being representative.

 

Lower Level:

 

 

Campocologno is only the freight terminal part

 

Upper Level:

 

 

There is plenty vertical height between Bernina and the level below it, so the grade between there and Alp Grum could be relieved somewhat if desired.

 

Best

 

Scott.

Edited August 11, 2020 by scottystitch