Modelling Spanish Broad Gauge Permanent way (was Which HO track make for Spanish Railways)

[Geep7]

I'm just starting the long slow slide down the rabbit hole into the world of modelling Spanish Railways, and before I start planning the inevitable layout seriously, I was wondering which make of track to use.

 

Usually for British outline I would go with Peco Code 75 or 100 hands down, however, with Spanish railways being Iberian gauge, I want something that looks a bit more European. So having seen others on RMWeb use it, I was thinking perhaps going with Tillig. Or maybe use Peco's code 83 range?

 

Any thoughts out there? Another factor to bear in mind is that I will be limited to a layout about 8 to 12 feet in length (including fiddle yard), so point length might become a factor.

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Geep7

[Grovenor]

Small layout like that is perfect for DIY track, and if you want Iberian Gauge you really have no choice.

5'6" at 1:87 is 19.25 mm.

[hmrspaul]

No idea about modelling, but I can remember seeing the track in Spain for the first time in 1961, simply flat bottomed rail held in place with cleats - nails with a head towards one side - I'm sure there is a better name. And they were supporting the heaviest locos I have ever seen! 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/spanishrail

Paul

[Geep7]

Thanks for both replies so far. I think I should have mentioned that I intend to be modelling the mid-80s around the Barcelona area. I'm not sure if much of the infrastructure at that time had changed from the 1960s.

 

I don't think I'm quite brave enough to try and build my own track to a gauge I've never done before, I still haven't tried EM yet. Converting the r-t-r locos could prove interesting as well.

 

I think I'm quite happy to compromise with standard HO, I just want something that will look reasonably more like Spanish track if possible.

[burgundy]

The thread on Roswell Mill contains some thoughts on non standard gauges - in that case Southern US 5' gauge or 17.5mm. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[doctor quinn]

How about Peco Bibloc track? https://peco-uk.com/products/flexible-track-bibloc-sleeper
 

[Geep7]

4 minutes ago, doctor quinn said:

How about Peco Bibloc track? https://peco-uk.com/products/flexible-track-bibloc-sleeper
 

I did wonder about that, but I wasn't sure when the concrete track was introduced and the wooden sleepered track replaced.

[rue_d_etropal]

One way to get correct track gauge would be to change scale and 3mm/ft is spot on for 5ft 6in gauge using 16.5mm gauge.

[Neil]

If we discount handbuilt track, and you give good reasons why you would want to do this, then logically the target is to capture the look of Spanish track rather than aiming at getting as dimensionally close as possible. So taking a look at photos both old and new from the Barcelona area then two things stand out. Because of the slightly wider gauge than we are used to the rail seems less dominant and  the overhang of the sleepers outside the rail seems shorter. If I was tackling this style of track but with standard HO products then I'd probably go for Peco's code 75 but use a simple jig trim back the sleeper ends so as to alter the proportions of the track. I think this would achieve the look you're after.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 05/08/2020 at 18:56, Geep7 said:

I did wonder about that, but I wasn't sure when the concrete track was introduced and the wooden sleepered track replaced.

 

On the main line north to Port Bou, I think that there was already some bi-bloc track in the 1970s. Certainly by the late 80s. I should have photos somewhere.

 

Space is going to be a major constraint. And do you want OHE (or should that be OLE?).

 

I have considered modelling one of the coastal towns as a RENFE branch terminus - either one that never had a railway (probably Roses for fish and fruit traffic) or one that was in reality narrow-gauge such as San Feliu.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

If we discount handbuilt track, and you give good reasons why you would want to do this, then logically the target is to capture the look of Spanish track rather than aiming at getting as dimensionally close as possible. So taking a look at photos both old and new from the Barcelona area then two things stand out. Because of the slightly wider gauge than we are used to the rail seems less dominant and  the overhang of the sleepers outside the rail seems shorter. If I was tackling this style of track but with standard HO products then I'd probably go for Peco's code 75 but use a simple jig trim back the sleeper ends so as to alter the proportions of the track. I think this would achieve the look you're after.

 

Is that second photo broad gauge?

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 05/08/2020 at 16:54, Grovenor said:

Small layout like that is perfect for DIY track, and if you want Iberian Gauge you really have no choice.

5'6" at 1:87 is 19.25 mm.

 

A reasonable compromise would be to use 18.83mm so at least there would be suitable gauges, wheelsets, etc. available.

[Geep7]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Space is going to be a major constraint. And do you want OHE (or should that be OLE?).

Yes, I'll be having OHE, something else I've never modelled before.

 

At the moment, with regard to space, I have a pair of 4ft x 15" boards available, so all I'll realistically be able to model is a branch terminus.

 

I also happen to have just acquired a fair amount of code 75 pointwork all medium radius plus a double slip, all electrofrog, so I think i'll probably go with this for now, possibly modified as suggested.

[doctor quinn]

Reading Neil’s comment on getting the look of Spanish track (rail less dominant than on std gauge), Another thought occurred to me - OO finescale track such as C&L could give this look. Whichever method you go for, perhaps it would be worth doing a test piece about half a metre long to experiment with techniques.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Geep7 said:

Yes, I'll be having OHE, something else I've never modelled before.

 

At the moment, with regard to space, I have a pair of 4ft x 15" boards available, so all I'll realistically be able to model is a branch terminus.

 

I also happen to have just acquired a fair amount of code 75 pointwork all medium radius plus a double slip, all electrofrog, so I think i'll probably go with this for now, possibly modified as suggested.

 

For a branch terminus, I think that the bi-bloc concrete is not an option in the 80s (or even now).

 

Perhaps worth looking on Shapeways for what is available in various scales (I know that there is some) and get it rescaled to 1:100 as Simon suggests although arguably HO Spanish trains on 16.5mm is no worse than 4mm scale UK trains running on 16.5mm track.

[Neil]

On 15/08/2020 at 13:15, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Is that second photo broad gauge?

 

A good question and one which sent me off to check. It's captioned as being between Barcelona and Sitges and certainly looks like the line there. Looking at the wikipedia page for Rodalies de Catalunya line R2 (the line in question) it would appear to be of Iberian gauge 1,668mm.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Neil

[Geep7]

5 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

A good question and one which sent me off to check. It's captioned as being between Barcelona and Sitges and certainly looks like the line there. Looking at the wikipedia page for Rodalies de Catalunya line R2 (the line in question) it would appear to be of Iberian gauge 1,668mm.

Having ridden on that section of line a few times (and it certainly looks like it is that section), then it definitely is Iberian gauge.

 

I've discovered a couple of rather good videos on YouTube taken at Castelldefels in the early 90's, which is on the same stretch of line.

 

 

 

Also, a fantastic video taken at Tortosa in the late 80s.

 

 

Hope these are of interest to you all, as much as they are to me.

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, Neil said:

 

A good question and one which sent me off to check. It's captioned as being between Barcelona and Sitges and certainly looks like the line there. Looking at the wikipedia page for Rodalies de Catalunya line R2 (the line in question) it would appear to be of Iberian gauge 1,668mm.

 

The reason that I asked is that I did not think that there was a broad gauge variant of that rolling stock. In every other respect, including the catenary, it looks like a traditional, and therefore broad gauge, line.

[Geep7]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

The reason that I asked is that I did not think that there was a broad gauge variant of that rolling stock. In every other respect, including the catenary, it looks like a traditional, and therefore broad gauge, line.

Ah, I had to look it up to remind me. The train in that picture would be one of the 6 Euromed sets that were built by Alsthom, based on the TGV, but with broad gauge bogies. They were converted to standard gauge in 2009.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am assuming that Chris already has some HO stock and so the Code 75 HO option.

 

But just had a light bulb moment and realised that 2.5mm scale models (1:120 TT) on 14.2mm gauge comes out pretty close to being right.

 

And then there is the easier option still of 2mm (1:160) on 10.5mm track.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell
Add

[Ian Morgan]

2mm/ft is 1/152 scale.

[rue_d_etropal]

On 15/08/2020 at 15:50, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

For a branch terminus, I think that the bi-bloc concrete is not an option in the 80s (or even now).

 

Perhaps worth looking on Shapeways for what is available in various scales (I know that there is some) and get it rescaled to 1:100 as Simon suggests although arguably HO Spanish trains on 16.5mm is no worse than 4mm scale UK trains running on 16.5mm track.

Now that has got me interested. Just wonder where I could find drawings. Much early stock was British built so some drawings might be in Birmingham.

What relly shows up the narrowness of using HO scale on HO track is the low cost Electrotren(Hornby) 0-6-o in various versions. Even the bufferes look too close together or arethey same as standard gauge? Fact that the same model has been sold as a British OO model proves my point. Migh make a good start point to design one in 1/100. Alo the old Electrotren 2-4-0T, again a British built loco, and the old balcony coahes, which did not look out of place onmy old OO layout over 40 years ago!

[Joseph_Pestell]

21 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

2mm/ft is 1/152 scale.

 

Even with my modest achievements in Maths (if only they had taken by mock result instead of the real one), I know that - which is why I qualified it by including the 1:160. It is of course true that 10.5mm comes out a bit too broad at 1:160.

[Joseph_Pestell]

15 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Now that has got me interested. Just wonder where I could find drawings. Much early stock was British built so some drawings might be in Birmingham.

What relly shows up the narrowness of using HO scale on HO track is the low cost Electrotren(Hornby) 0-6-o in various versions. Even the bufferes look too close together or arethey same as standard gauge? Fact that the same model has been sold as a British OO model proves my point. Migh make a good start point to design one in 1/100. Alo the old Electrotren 2-4-0T, again a British built loco, and the old balcony coahes, which did not look out of place onmy old OO layout over 40 years ago!

 

The buffers on Spanish locos do seem to be too close together relative to width. Often rather small too.

[rue_d_etropal]

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

The buffers on Spanish locos do seem to be too close together relative to width. Often rather small too.

When Iwas doing the Sri Lankan stock I worked out buffers were further apart, so assumed same on Spanish stock. Presume it is done on models to match HO standard gauge.

I have found drawings for German built railcar(double version of classic 4 wheeler), so I might be tempted to create a smal working diorama myself.Plenty of suitable buildings available in 1/1oo scale thanks to wargamers, and would use Peco finescale track.