Britannia's used between Manchester & St.Pancras

[minislot]

I've been trying to figure out which specific Britannia class locos were used on services on the midland mainline out of St.Pancras in the 1950's & 1960's. I know they arrived relatively late after diesel and electric haulage took over their' duties elsewhere, but trying to find details on which specific loco's were used on services like Manchester-St. Pancras has been surprisingly difficult.

 

Any photos or details on which shed(s) they would have been allocated to during this period, would be greatly appreciated.

[pH]

Try looking here:

 

http://brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=746201&type=S&page=alloc

[ikks]

The following were used in 1959:

70004,14.15,17,21,42 . All were shedded at 9E Trafford Park.

There were rumours that 70016 was used for a short time but I cannot confirm that and was at 86C at the time of the publication of the 1959 Ian Allan combined volume.

 

Rgds......Mike

[minislot]

Thank you both.

 

I'd looked at the list of allocations but had assumed they were being used here later on than 1959/1960.

 

I know there were meant to be a few issues with the Britannia's on the Manchester-St. Pancras and other similar diagrams. So i'll have to look into whether Jubilee's were more dominant than I thought, and when the Sulzer Type 4's came in.

[pharrc20]

I did hear or read of one Britannia class locomotive that came to grief somewhere near Hazel Grove having become detached from the tender. The details may be in the Foxline book on the Manchester Central to Chinley line and possibly photos too but I don't have any of my books on hand to check.

Hth Paul

[PenrithBeacon]

19 hours ago, ikks said:

The following were used in 1959:

70004,14.15,17,21,42 . All were shedded at 9E Trafford Park.

There were rumours that 70016 was used for a short time but I cannot confirm that and was at 86C at the time of the publication of the 1959 Ian Allan combined volume.

 

Rgds......Mike

Wouldn't there have been locomotives at Cricklewood too?

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Wouldn't there have been locomotives at Cricklewood too?

 

Kentish Town (70042 from 14/6/58 - 11/7/58) - there were also several allocated to Neasden/Annesley for GC trains from Marylebone, in the early 60s. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by MidlandRed

[ikks]

Apologies, I should have specified the that the date I referred to was allocations as at 21/03/1959, I did see(cop) them all at Derby in that year, The first being 70004 though, on the up Palatine in very late December 1958 taking my great aunt Mary home(thank goodness!!, she'd been with us for two weeks), I wouldn't be moved from the end of platform 6, totally in awe of William, I did however did give aunty a wave as she went past me. Later dad gave me the half-crown she left for me(oops) which was duly spent on my first ABC, it had City of London on the front cover in glorious red..................Heaven!!!.

 

Rgds....Mike

,

[Pete the Elaner]

On 06/08/2020 at 15:28, minislot said:

 

I know there were meant to be a few issues with the Britannia's on the Manchester-St. Pancras and other similar diagrams. So i'll have to look into whether Jubilee's were more dominant than I thought, and when the Sulzer Type 4's came in.

 

We are building a section of Bedford c1960 at the club & have a folder full of photos.

From memory (it is locked away right now), Jubilees seem to be the most common class of tender loco  on passenger services.

[ikks]

Hi Pete,

Jubilees were the mainstay of the Midland main line up to the late fifties and it was only the introduction of the Brits and displaced WCML Royal Scots around '58,'59 and '60 onwards together with the onset of dieselisation that saw their demise. My comments here, relate to the trains that passed through Derby but there may have been 55A Scots/Brits that reached St. Pancras via Nottingham, which would have gone through Bedford, I'm sure someone on here will know.

 

Rgds.........Mike

Edited August 7, 2020 by ikks

[LNER4479]

On 06/08/2020 at 01:20, minislot said:

I've been trying to figure out which specific Britannia class locos were used on services on the midland mainline out of St.Pancras in the 1950's & 1960's. I know they arrived relatively late after diesel and electric haulage took over their' duties elsewhere, but trying to find details on which specific loco's were used on services like Manchester-St. Pancras has been surprisingly difficult.

 

Any photos or details on which shed(s) they would have been allocated to during this period, would be greatly appreciated.

 

21 hours ago, pharrc20 said:

I did hear or read of one Britannia class locomotive that came to grief somewhere near Hazel Grove having become detached from the tender. The details may be in the Foxline book on the Manchester Central to Chinley line and possibly photos too but I don't have any of my books on hand to check.

Hth Paul

Hi,

 

I have the two Foxline books spread out in front of me. It's pretty much already been said but the 'story' is as follows:

 

In 1957, the Midland mainline saw some service accelerations and a named train - 'The Palatine'. This was applied to the morning express train from St. Pancras (7.55am depart; Manchr Central arrive 11.45), with the return working being 2.25pm, arriving St. Pancras at 6.10. This must have pushed the hard-pressed Jubilees beyond their limit and so, in July 1958, the six Britannias already listed were drafted in and thus became regulars on the route from then onwards.

 

Notably, 70004 and 70014 were the one and the same locos that were in Dick Hardy's charge at Stewarts Lane, bulled up to perfection for working the 'Golden Arrow' service; I assume that it was the early Southern Region electric locos that rendered them surplus? Anyway, they didn't stay pristine for long and it was in fact 70014 that broke its drawbar whilst running at speed on the descent down into Manchester at Bramhall Moor Lane. A scary incident (that did nothing to endear the locos to the Midland men) but fortunately for the crew the modern design of footplate integral to the cab floor saved them.

 

The locos were supplemented by 70031, 32 & 33 from 1960. All these Brit allocations were to Trafford Park (70042 is recorded as being at Kentish Town very briefly in 1958) and the locos were captive to the Manchester-London services. Apart from an out-of-course 'one off', any Britannias seen between London and Derby would have been on Manchester expresses. It was the drafted in Royal Scots that were allocated to Kentish Town and I believe it was they that worked north of Derby to Sheffield and Leeds, as well as taking their turn on the Manchester expresses. The Jubilee allocations were shuffled about but were still seen on the route, now on the more secondary services (and thus finally seeing off any last remaining Compounds).

 

It didn't last very long, as the Peak diesels were around from the early 1960s, as well as the glamorous Midland Pullman, the route actually assuming greater importance for a few years (before its sad demise) to take the brunt of the Manchester-London traffic during the west coast electrification work.

 

The Foxline Books are a great reference for all this. Pictures of Britannias on the London services as follows:

Part One

70017 Trafford Park shed 1959

70014 Chorlton--Hardy on the 'Up Palatine' March 1960

Part Two

70021 Cheadle Heath 7.25am Central-St.Pancras express 16.5.59

70031 Cheadle Heath Central-St Pancras express (updated)

70042 between Disley and New Mills South Junc. (updated)

70042 south of Chorlton Junc. 4.25pm Central-St Pancras express 9.9.58

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by LNER4479

[Dibatag]

13 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

 

Hi,

 

I have the two Foxline books spread out in front of me. It's pretty much already been said but the 'story' is as follows:

 

In 1957, the Midland mainline saw some service accelerations and a named train - 'The Palatine'. This was applied to the morning express train from St. Pancras (7.55am depart; Manchr Central arrive 11.45), with the return working being 2.25pm, arriving St. Pancras at 6.10. This must have pushed the hard-pressed Jubilees beyond their limit and so, in July 1958, the six Britannias already listed were drafted in and thus became regulars on the route from then onwards.

 

Notably, 70004 and 70014 were the one and the same locos that were in Dick Hardy's charge at Stewarts Lane, bulled up to perfection for working the 'Golden Arrow' service; I assume that it was the early Southern Region electric locos that rendered them surplus? Anyway, they didn't stay pristine for long and it was in fact 70014 that broke its drawbar whilst running at speed on the descent down into Manchester at Bramhall Moor Lane. A scary incident (that did nothing to endear the locos to the Midland men) but fortunately for the crew the modern design of footplate integral to the cab floor saved them.

 

The locos were supplemented by 70031, 32 & 33 from 1960. All these Brit allocations were to Trafford Park (70042 is recorded as being at Kentish Town very briefly in 1958) and the locos were captive to the Manchester-London services. Apart from an out-of-course 'one off', any Britannias seen between London and Derby would have been on Manchester expresses. It was the drafted in Royal Scots that were allocated to Kentish Town and I believe it was they that worked north of Derby to Sheffield and Leeds, as well as taking their turn on the Manchester expresses. The Jubilee allocations were shuffled about but were still seen on the route, now on the more secondary services (and thus finally seeing off any last remaining Compounds).

 

It didn't last very long, as the Peak diesels were around from the early 1960s, as well as the glamorous Midland Pullman, the route actually assuming greater importance for a few years (before its sad demise) to take the brunt of the Manchester-London traffic during the west coast electrification work.

 

The Foxline Books are a great reference for all this. Pictures of Britannias on the London services as follows:

Part One

70017 Trafford Park shed 1959

70014 Chorlton--Hardy on the 'Up Palatine' March 1960

Part Two

70021 Cheadle Heath 7.25am Central-St.Pancras express 16.5.59

70031 Cheadle Heath Central-St Pancras express (updated)

70042 between Disley and New Mills South Junc. (updated)

70042 south of Chorlton Junc. 4.25pm Central-St Pancras express 9.9.58

 

 

If you can afford to splash the cash (£30) I can thoroughly recommend " Midland Main Lines to St. Pancras & Cross Country 1957 -1963" by John Palmer (Pen-and-Sword 2017). It includes a chapter on each year and descibes MPDs, timetables, services and locomotives used in great detail.

[Poor Old Bruce]

26 minutes ago, Dibatag said:

 

If you can afford to splash the cash (£30) I can thoroughly recommend " Midland Main Lines to St. Pancras & Cross Country 1957 -1963" by John Palmer (Pen-and-Sword 2017). It includes a chapter on each year and describes MPDs, timetables, services and locomotives used in great detail.

 

I got my copy from Brielow bar Book Shop a year or two ago at about half that price.

 

Another Britannia turn in the early 1960s was a train from Manchester Piccadilly to St Pancras via Stoke and Derby. It was 2:13 from Derby and went out via Chaddesden Sidings. Usually a Longsight Brit. It was after the other Brits had been transferred away from the Midland lines but brought some of them back occasionally, I have a photo (somewhere) of William Shakespeare at Derby Platform 1 in 1963.

[PenrithBeacon]

3 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

 

4 hours ago, Dibatag said:

 

If you can afford to splash the cash (£30) I can thoroughly recommend " Midland Main Lines to St. Pancras & Cross Country 1957 -1963" by John Palmer (Pen-and-Sword 2017). It includes a chapter on each year and descibes MPDs, timetables, services and locomotives used in great detail.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1473885574/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_XAQlFbDPMQN3Z

Just bought one!

Edited August 8, 2020 by PenrithBeacon
Too many quotes

[Ian Hargrave]

4 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

I got my copy from Brielow bar Book Shop a year or two ago at about half that price.

 

Another Britannia turn in the early 1960s was a train from Manchester Piccadilly to St Pancras via Stoke and Derby. It was 2:13 from Derby and went out via Chaddesden Sidings. Usually a Longsight Brit. It was after the other Brits had been transferred away from the Midland lines but brought some of them back occasionally, I have a photo (somewhere) of William Shakespeare at Derby Platform 1 in 1963.

This working also saw Longsight  EE Type 4 (aka Class 40 )and Metrovic CoBo in multiple from Derby btw.

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Ian Hargrave
Additional text

[Ian Hargrave]

Brits also worked the MML between St.Pancras and Leeds.I have a sighting of 70044 at Sheffield Midland on a St.Pancras bound express in September 1961,probably substituting for a failed Sulzer Peak.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Ian Hargrave
Adding text

[65179]

20 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

 

Hi,

 

I have the two Foxline books spread out in front of me. It's pretty much already been said but the 'story' is as follows:

 

In 1957, the Midland mainline saw some service accelerations and a named train - 'The Palatine'. This was applied to the morning express train from St. Pancras (7.55am depart; Manchr Central arrive 11.45), with the return working being 2.25pm, arriving St. Pancras at 6.10. This must have pushed the hard-pressed Jubilees beyond their limit and so, in July 1958, the six Britannias already listed were drafted in and thus became regulars on the route from then onwards.

 

Notably, 70004 and 70014 were the one and the same locos that were in Dick Hardy's charge at Stewarts Lane, bulled up to perfection for working the 'Golden Arrow' service; I assume that it was the early Southern Region electric locos that rendered them surplus? Anyway, they didn't stay pristine for long and it was in fact 70014 that broke its drawbar whilst running at speed on the descent down into Manchester at Bramhall Moor Lane. A scary incident (that did nothing to endear the locos to the Midland men) but fortunately for the crew the modern design of footplate integral to the cab floor saved them.

...

 

 

Didn't one of the Trafford Park Britannias also end up in the canal? 

 

Simon

[LNER4479]

Ooh - not heard that one! Which canal?(!)

[65179]

Fortunately despite all the stuff I've collected and read whilst researching (and not having got anywhere with building) Chorlton over far too long  it didn't take me too long to find at least one reference to the incident. According to C. Bentley's British Railways Operating History Vol. One The Peak District (Xpress  Publishing) it was the unfortunate Iron Duke again! It reportedly 'got away from its crew' whilst at Trafford Park and ended up in the Bridgewater Canal.

 

Simon

[Pete the Elaner]

On 07/08/2020 at 17:28, ikks said:

Hi Pete,

Jubilees were the mainstay of the Midland main line up to the late fifties and it was only the introduction of the Brits and displaced WCML Royal Scots around '58,'59 and '60 onwards together with the onset of dieselisation that saw their demise. My comments here, relate to the trains that passed through Derby but there may have been 55A Scots/Brits that reached St. Pancras via Nottingham, which would have gone through Bedford, I'm sure someone on here will know.

 

Rgds.........Mike

 

That is very useful for choosing what stock we collect for it.

Thank you.

[minislot]

Thank you all, this has really helped me get a broader picture of what I was looking for.

Will now know who to be looking for when considering a Brit, Scot, or Jubilee.

[RFS]

On 07/08/2020 at 20:10, LNER4479 said:

 

Notably, 70004 and 70014 were the one and the same locos that were in Dick Hardy's charge at Stewarts Lane, bulled up to perfection for working the 'Golden Arrow' service; I assume that it was the early Southern Region electric locos that rendered them surplus?

 

 

These locos were allocated to the SR purely for publicity reasons (to showcase British engineering etc.), which is why they went to Stewarts Lane for service on the Golden Arrow and other boat trains where they would come to the attention of foreign visitors.  70009 Alfred the Great also spent a few months in 1951 on the Bournemouth Belle for the same reason.

 

With 140 Bulleid Pacifics by this time, the SR had no motive power need for 3 extra locos, and presumably by 1958 the need for publicity of steam locos was long gone. 

[65179]

4 hours ago, minislot said:

Thank you all, this has really helped me get a broader picture of what I was looking for.

Will now know who to be looking for when considering a Brit, Scot, or Jubilee.

 

Depending on how far you want to go with the details, when choosing Jubilees on the Midland it pays to look carefully at the tenders. The Stanier 3500 gallon tender (shorter than the normal 4000 gallon variety) was particularly common.  When the shorter length isn't visible you can identify them by the lower placed row of rivets across the sides and round the tender rear. Apologies if I'm teaching grandma to suck eggs.

 

Compare this Midland stalwart (embedded Flickr image not mine) 45694 with 4000 gallon tender:

 

 

 

with the smaller tender on this johnny come lately (embedded Flickr image not mine) 45593 with 3500 gallon tender:

 

 

Jubilee tenders are a nightmare for variation, as are details of so many other other classes, but I only mention this particular one because I didn't know the smaller tender existed until I started choosing a Midland Division loco to model!

 

Simon

[minislot]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

 

Depending on how far you want to go with the details, when choosing Jubilees on the Midland it pays to look carefully at the tenders. The Stanier 3500 gallon tender (shorter than the normal 4000 gallon variety) was particularly common.  When the shorter length isn't visible you can identify them by the lower placed row of rivets across the sides and round the tender rear. Apologies if I'm teaching grandma to suck eggs.

 

Compare this Midland stalwart (embedded Flickr image not mine) 45694 with 4000 gallon tender:

 

 

 

with the smaller tender on this johnny come lately (embedded Flickr image not mine) 45593 with 3500 gallon tender:

 

 

Jubilee tenders are a nightmare for variation, as are details of so many other other classes, but I only mention this particular one because I didn't know the smaller tender existed until I started choosing a Midland Division loco to model!

 

Simon

 

I knew about Jubilee variations generally, but not the trick on spotting tender capacities at distance. Though midland mainline loco's having 3500's because the 4000's were needed elsewhere makes sense.

 

(Here's hoping the free hand of capitalism sorts out Bachmanns short/long firebox self-fufilling prophecy; speaking as someone who would love a modern Leander or one of the 10 Derby-Built examples, regardless of East-Midlands applicability.)

Edited August 13, 2020 by minislot

[Norton961]

The only source for a Stanier 3500 gallon tender is the Brassmaster etched version, there is no RTR version. K,s did one many years ago but the rivet pattern is all wrong. ( I have one).

 

David