Operations - who shunts the arriving goods of a "foreign" company?

[MR Chuffer]

Developing my working timetable for a MR pre-WW1 branch line terminus serving a town of about 20,000 people (up North...), I now have enough wagons to introduce a foreign-working daily goods, in my case, the L&YR.

 

As a general principal, who shunts the "foreign" arrival and assembles the return working in the extensive goods yard, the locally-based shunter or the arriving engine?

 

Is it written into the running rights that the foreign company has over the line or subject to local arrangements?

 

There is only one, medium-sized goods shed on my layout but I read in the RCH Handbook of Railway Stations 1904 of locations, e.g. Blackburn, having 3 goods handling facilities, the L&Y, L&NWR and the MR, presumably these all have their own goods handling facilities, or are the physical assets blurred into a single amorphous location and these are just the goods booking offices?

 

And is the foreign engine allowed to use the local coaling and watering facilities (having travelled about 15 miles from its home depot)? In my case a single road engine shed, a 42' turntable and enough stabling for 3 locos.

 

Thanks for any insights.

[Regularity]

Most branchlines wouldn’t have a dedicated shunting loco, and the only loco available would be the one which brought the train in, so that more or less answers the point.

Otherwise, it would depend on the nature of the agreement, particularly if it was a question of statutory running powers, which suggest full access rights, versus an agreement which might be more detailed.

[Wheatley]

Statutory running rights give the permission, how it works in practice would be down to the companies to agree. Depending on the level of traffic that could be a straightforward written agreement saying who can do what on behalf of whom and how much the beneficiary has to pay as a result, right up to a full blown joint committee with the powers of its individual company boards delegated to it. Not familiar with the situation at Blackburn but G&SWR access to the CR-operated* station at Stranraer starts with the CR lifting a rail to keep the G&SWR out and ends with a joint committee involving 2 Scottish and 2 English companies !

 

At a small terminus I would expect your LYR loco to shunt its own train, and the MR to charge it for the facilities used. The LYR might have its own goods agent if the trafic justified it. 

 

(*At the time, it got considerably more complicated later). 

[MR Chuffer]

12 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Most branchlines wouldn’t have a dedicated shunting loco,

I get what you are saying, access rights versus an agreement, but my particular (single) branch line in real life did have a dedicated shunting engine until the 1st decade of the 1900s. So perhaps I assume an agreement where all arrivals are dealt with by the resident shunting engine.

 

3 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

At a small terminus

A town of 20,000 people at the time with an hourly passenger service to the next big town and several goods trains a day would likely be a mid-sized branch with its engine shed and shunter(s), as Bacup, Lancashire for example (but I'm not Bacup). So with what you've said, I think its reasonable to write my own agreement/rules, thanks.

[Wheatley]

If its a real place then tell us which one, someone might actually know the answer !

[Regularity]

27 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

my particular (single) branch line in real life did have a dedicated shunting engine until the 1st decade of the 1900s.

It would have been useful to have all such information to begin with.

Quote

If its a real place then tell us which one, someone might actually know the answer !

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Regularity
What Wheatley said.

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, MR Chuffer said:

And is the foreign engine allowed to use the local coaling and watering facilities (having travelled about 15 miles from its home depot)? In my case a single road engine shed, a 42' turntable and enough stabling for 3 locos.

Again, local agreements, but there would have been a charge, at least for the coaling.

The NSR used to run freight trains as far south as Wellingborough on the MR, and whilst they used the turntable and probably the water supply, were famously piled high with coal in the tender prior to departure from their home system, to avoid paying extra for refuelling.

 

LNWR and LYR had a very close working relationship, so probably came to some very amicable agreements which may be atypical of the era.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Regularity

[MR Chuffer]

10 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

If its a real place then tell us which one, someone might actually know the answer !

It is based on a real place, the Barnoldswick branch on the MR Skipton-Colne line with the following caveats:

 

- I've imagined a triangular junction off the main line whereas the original branch junction faced only to Skipton, and thus the L&YR has been imagined as securing limited running rights from Colne into Barnoldswick.

 

- Population uprated from 17,000 in 1911 to over 20,000 to create more traffic interest, more on a par with Bacup (22,000+), which was a L&YR double track "branch line" terminus, and a very busy one at that.

 

- The single line has been laid with the facilities to easily extend to double track - time and money! - such that I can have an even wider traffic profile.

 

I read Barnoldswick was the occasional starting point in the summer for Wakes Weeks through summer excursions to the Lancashire coast, but no terminating freight traffic in real life. Again, we're talking 1900-1910 - hence my rationale for the time....

[MR Chuffer]

So, in conclusion, my takeaways are:

 

- Local shunter deals with incoming traffic and assembles the return; after all, the "foreign" driver might not be familiar with the layout of the sidings and the sooner its been sorted, the sooner it can be sent on its way.

 

- The loco will be allowed to coal and water as necessary, and be turned, subject to charges. It would have only come 20 miles maximum from its home depot so probably wouldn't need topping up.

 

Well, that didn't take long, I'll create the outline agreement covering operating procedures and thanks everybody for your inputs.

Edited August 6, 2020 by MR Chuffer

[Compound2632]

There were quite a number of locations where the company working its goods trains in by virtue of running powers had its own goods yard with all the facilities - the Midland at Dudley, for example - meanwhile just a few miles away, the Great Western worked goods trains from Wolverhampton to Walsall over the Midland line but shared the LNWR facilities there, presumably as a tenant. [Ref. The Railway Clearing House Handbook of Railway Stations 1904 (David & Charles Reprints, 1970).]

[TheSignalEngineer]

On a much bigger scale, at Rugby just before electrification I can remember there still being a notice on the up platform to the effect that drivers of engines from 'foreign' companies must put a water ticket in the box when filling up. 

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

On a much bigger scale, at Rugby just before electrification I can remember there still being a notice on the up platform to the effect that drivers of engines from 'foreign' companies must put a water ticket in the box when filling up. 

 

That would be Midland Counties engines...

[Argos]

There were also reciprocal working arrangements, for example at Buxton there was a joint shunt arrangement between the Midland and LNWR.

 

One company would provide shunting motive power for a period  (I think 6 months) then it swapped over.

By the twentieth most companies were looking to reduce unnecessary competition and achieve working economies wherever possible.  

[Poggy1165]

I'm fairly sure that if you wanted to use another company's facilities (or engine) you were expected to pay. Of course there were sometimes what might be called "special arrangements" where one thing was swapped for another, but these would be quite individual.

 

For example there was usually a standing instruction that if a foreign engine used your water column the fact had to be noted so the aforesaid foreign company could be charged.