The sound of Southern Locos compared to LM/BR Locos

[Tallpaul69]

Apart from the Spamcan variations and the rebuilds thereof, was the sound of 2 cylinder ex Southern locos markedly different to similar ex LMS and LNER locos?

 

My reason for asking is I am thinking of fitting Hornby Black 5 TTS decoders to N15 and S15 locos and LNER J36 TTS decoders to Q1 and class 700 locos. If the sound were similar were the whistles markedly different?

 

Please do not use this thread to re run the TTS decoders are not good because of lack of syncronisation between the chuffs and the wheel revs! I have experience of a number of identical locos one fitted with TTS and one fitted with "full price" decoders and am happy with the TTS performance. 

 

Many thanks

Paul

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

What you propose is reasonable, except I would suggest for the Q1 which is a much larger machine than a pre-group 0-6-0 and had the Lemaitre exhaust arrangement. More 'boom' than 'bark' at modest power outputs. If there's a BB/WC sound available that's a better bet, same exhaust system and larger smokebox dimension should make it distinctively different to the small 0-6-0, which is as it should be; and hopefully able to produce the terrific row of one working hard.

[The Johnster]

One of my teen memories of Eastleigh in 1967 was of a filthy MN running at a very high speed indeed on the down main with a Bournemouth train; I have never before or since seen a steam loco running as fast as that.  Filthy (she was unidentifiable) or not she was in good mechanical order and running at an early cutoff not on full regulator; the sound at 6 beats per revolution was a sort of purr, not unlike a class 47 diesel at speed.  The big Lemaitre exhaust probably played a part in this.

[Zomboid]

On 06/08/2020 at 16:31, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

What you propose is reasonable, except I would suggest for the Q1 which is a much larger machine than a pre-group 0-6-0 and had the Lemaitre exhaust arrangement. More 'boom' than 'bark' at modest power outputs. If there's a BB/WC sound available that's a better bet, same exhaust system and larger smokebox dimension should make it distinctively different to the small 0-6-0, which is as it should be; and hopefully able to produce the terrific row of one working hard.

Won't the different number of cylinders make a different  characteristic sound? I've never heard a Q1, but most 2 cylinder locos I can recall had a "CHUFF chuff chuff chuff" repeating pattern once at some kind of speed. Nothing like a WC/BoB, at least in my memory.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

5 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Won't the different number of cylinders make a different  characteristic sound? I've never heard a Q1, but most 2 cylinder locos I can recall had a "CHUFF chuff chuff chuff" repeating pattern once at some kind of speed. Nothing like a WC/BoB, at least in my memory.

What I posted was in the context of the TTS decoder the OP intends using, which doesn't produce the correct number of beats per revolution. The characteristic of the sound made by a steam loco is fundamentally that of the 'organ pipe' of the smokebox and exhaust system, so it is those you want to match as closely as possible. Thereafter comes the speed, valve gear type and setting, and the steam rate, which are akin to the organist playing the instrument. I have yet to hear any sound decoder even vaguely approximate the subtleties this produces. See below.

 

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

One of my teen memories of Eastleigh in 1967 was of a filthy MN running at a very high speed indeed on the down main with a Bournemouth train; I have never before or since seen a steam loco running as fast as that.  Filthy (she was unidentifiable) or not she was in good mechanical order and running at an early cutoff not on full regulator; the sound at 6 beats per revolution was a sort of purr, not unlike a class 47 diesel at speed.  The big Lemaitre exhaust probably played a part in this.

This was one of the features of the ECML, wherefrom of course Bulleid got the idea of powerful fast running three cylinder pacifics. As you sat lineside the first announcement of one of the breed approaching at full express speed was a very deep whumm-whumm-whumm note; which our then church organist - a full on steam fan - demonstrated was approximately 40Hz for a three cylinder loco running at the 90mph line limit.

 

You could sometimes hear the 'organist' (driver) take his foot off the bass pedal (close the regulator) on an up express coming onto Welwyn viaduct*, and the whumm-whumm-whumm would cease, shortly after the exhaust visibly diminished on a rapidly approaching express, still a good half a mile away. And as it roared past we all shouted 'Racehorse' 'Arrer' 'Peppercorn', 'STREAK!' as appropriate. Such a time to be young.

 

*If the train was going at 90 on the viaduct, an express would reputedly coast the last 22 miles to KX, provided there were no significant signal checks, thanks to the steady progression of falling gradients, so the crews claimed.

[Zomboid]

11 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

What I posted was in the context of the TTS decoder the OP intends using, which doesn't produce the correct number of beats per revolution. The characteristic of the sound made by a steam loco is fundamentally that of the 'organ pipe' of the smokebox and exhaust system, so it is those you want to match as closely as possible. Thereafter comes the speed, valve gear type and setting, and the steam rate, which are akin to the organist playing the instrument. I have yet to hear any sound decoder even vaguely approximate the subtleties this produces. See below.

I was thinking more of the emphasis beat every 4 chuffs that seems to be a feature of 2 cylinder engines, which would presumably be every 6 on a 3 cylinder. Though Bulleids don't sound much like anything else I've heard. 

[The Johnster]

6 beats per driving wheel revolution for a 3 cylinder loco, 4 for 2 or 4 cyldiners.  There will be an emphasis beat in both cases, and in the case of Gresley valve gear a distinct 6/8 time signature as well.  The exception was the Lord Nelson class, another LeMaitre exhaust loco, which had cranks set at 135 degree intervals instead of the normal 90 deg. offsets, and thus produced 8 chuffs per driving wheel revolution.  I have, regrettably, never heard one at speed but would imagine a more or less continuous roar with the chuffs merging.

 

Bullieds, unless they are working hard, always seemed to me to be almost silent runners.  The MN at Eastleigh was clearly driven by someone who wanted to prove what the loco could do before ti was scrapped, and was not in any way silent...  

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

47 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I was thinking more of the emphasis beat every 4 chuffs that seems to be a feature of 2 cylinder engines, which would presumably be every 6 on a 3 cylinder. Though Bulleids don't sound much like anything else I've heard. 

But before you get to the number of beats per revolution (which TTS definitely cannot replicate) there's the fundamental sound. Take a pair of two cylinder locos which can still be heard running today, a Terrier and a Britannia. The Terrier makes pop-pop-pop sounds, the Brit woof-woof-woof. All I am suggesting is that for a Q1 something at the 'woof-woof' end of the scale is more appropriate, to differentiate it from a small 0-6-0 which will have more of the pop-pop character.

[SRman]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

What I posted was in the context of the TTS decoder the OP intends using, which doesn't produce the correct number of beats per revolution. The characteristic of the sound made by a steam loco is fundamentally that of the 'organ pipe' of the smokebox and exhaust system, so it is those you want to match as closely as possible. Thereafter comes the speed, valve gear type and setting, and the steam rate, which are akin to the organist playing the instrument. I have yet to hear any sound decoder even vaguely approximate the subtleties this produces. See below.

 

This was one of the features of the ECML, wherefrom of course Bulleid got the idea of powerful fast running three cylinder pacifics. As you sat lineside the first announcement of one of the breed approaching at full express speed was a very deep whumm-whumm-whumm note; which our then church organist - a full on steam fan - demonstrated was approximately 40Hz for a three cylinder loco running at the 90mph line limit.

 

You could sometimes hear the 'organist' (driver) take his foot off the bass pedal (close the regulator) on an up express coming onto Welwyn viaduct*, and the whumm-whumm-whumm would cease, shortly after the exhaust visibly diminished on a rapidly approaching express, still a good half a mile away. And as it roared past we all shouted 'Racehorse' 'Arrer' 'Peppercorn', 'STREAK!' as appropriate. Such a time to be young.

 

*If the train was going at 90 on the viaduct, an express would reputedly coast the last 22 miles to KX, provided there were no significant signal checks, thanks to the steady progression of falling gradients, so the crews claimed.

 

Normally, I would disagree with the suggestion of using Bulleid Pacifc sounds on a Q1, but in the case of the TTS sounds, I agree totally that they don't sound like a three cylinder locomotive. When I bought the BR unrebuilt MN it came with TTS sound fitted, which I really wasn't particularly after (I just wanted that locomotive in that livery). I decided it did not sound at all like a Bulleid Pacific should, and promptly pulled the TTS decoder out, and stuck it into a two cylinder BR standard 4-6-0, where it actually doesn't sound too bad, to my mind. As you say, we can't synchronise the sounds to the wheel revolutions, but it's close enough that I can live wth it, seeing as I hadn't bought the TTS decoder separately with any purpose in mind.

As The Johnster indicated, Bulleid Pacifics had a softer sound. To me it was almost a squishy/mushy sort of sound (maybe not a good description) with, of course, the six beats per revolution. Certainly not a bark. On the other hand, Terriers had a distinctive bark, almost literally.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by SRman

[Tallpaul69]

Thanks for the input guys.

You make some interesting points, and clearly the Q1 is a more complicated issue than I first thought!

I must listen carefully to my TTS MN and see what I think.

Another SR loco I want to use is a USA Tank. I suspect that this might not have a UK equivalent so it might be a case of taking the plunge and paying for a full priced decoder.

One reason for looking at fitting incorrect(!) decoders to some of my southern fleet is that I want to run these as visiting locos or occasionally a completely southern take on my WR layout. As such I am loathe to spend top dollar out of my limited budget on all the SR locos!

Best regards

Paul  

[Nearholmer]

On 08/08/2020 at 01:31, The Johnster said:

the sound at 6 beats per revolution was a sort of purr,

 

Yes, I can remember them going through Woking at full belt, and the sound was nothing like the conventional "steam loco noise"  which the Standard 5MT made .......... I was trying to imitate it for the (dis) benefit of members of our 0 gauge group last time we met (February; seems like a different lifetime).

 

"Purr" isn't a bad approximation, if you imagine "tiger", rather than "kitten".

[The Johnster]

Yes, but it wan't a growl either, 37s did that, it was still a purr; your tiger analogy is perfect.  It may not be immediately apparent to those not old enough to recall regular fast steam operations, but a steam loco running at 80 or 90 mph is actually doing very little work; the regulator is not fully open and the cutoff is high, so very little steam is going into the cylinders, just enough to keep up speed and maintain momentum, any more is a waste.  A diesel OTOH at full speed is working flat out unrelentingly when speed has risen to the maximum with a full load on a level road.  So fast running steam locos, especially large pacifics which could be kept going with very little steam having to be made or used, were often making quite soft and gentle sounds at the exhaust; they purred!

Edited August 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[SRman]

The other thing I remember with the Bulleid pacifics (only vaguely, though) was the distinctive clanking noises as they coasted through Petts Wood at speed.

[The Johnster]

If this clanking was associated with the rebuilt locos, it probably came from the Walcheart's valve gear.  Similar sounds came from all locos with outside Walchearts.

 

GW locos had a distinctive sharp 'bark' which I believe was due to the long piston travel and valve gear settings.  

[Andy Kirkham]

I'm too young to have any clear memories of steam at speed, but I recall reading what somebody wrote about the sound of a Castle passing at about 100mph - it was described as resembling a motorbike.

[Tallpaul69]

While a number of SR locos probably sound similar and similar to other regions locos with outside  Walcheart's gear a greater problem might be whistles?

Did the mixed traffic 2-6-0s and 4-6-0s have similar whistles and were these different to the smaller SR locos? and did the USAs have an American sounding horn?

I will have to dig out some loco DVDs and have a listen!

Cheers all

[Right Away]

The lovely deep, mellow sound of the 5’s Caledonian Bass Siren shouldn’t be overlooked.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Right Away

[Right Away]

On 08/08/2020 at 13:44, The Johnster said:

I have, regrettably, never heard one (LN) at speed but would imagine a more or less continuous roar with the chuffs merging.

 

Yes, individual exhaust beats almost indistinguishable; saw a few at Eastleigh in ‘60 - ‘61. London bound boats on the up through, they sounded more like motor vehicles, but still looking impressive. It was a bad day when reading of the first withdrawals in Trains Illustrated.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

5 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

did the USAs have an American sounding horn

 

I don't think so.

 

40+ years ago, optimistic chaps at the Bluebell and K&ESR tried unsuccessfully to teach me to fire Yankee Tanks, and I don't remember the whistles being anything special. But, if you listen to this, the loco whistle sounds distinctly "chimey" https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=southern+usa+tank&&view=detail&mid=690298EA038EF77860D4690298EA038EF77860D4&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsouthern%2Busa%2Btank%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

[SRman]

9 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

While a number of SR locos probably sound similar and similar to other regions locos with outside  Walcheart's gear a greater problem might be whistles?

Did the mixed traffic 2-6-0s and 4-6-0s have similar whistles and were these different to the smaller SR locos? and did the USAs have an American sounding horn?

I will have to dig out some loco DVDs and have a listen!

Cheers all

Years ago when I fitted Howes' sound into a Bachmann Standard class 5, I was given three options for the whistle: BR standard, LMR/LMS type, or Southern Arthur type. Apparenty, BR fitted these 'regional' whistles to some locos in the class. Some of the 5MTs also got Arthur names from around 1960 as the N15s were withdrawn. 

Anyway, I chose the N15 whistle as being appropriate for 73082, Camelot.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎09‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 23:25, The Johnster said:

... It may not be immediately apparent to those not old enough to recall regular fast steam operations, but a steam loco running at 80 or 90 mph is actually doing very little work; the regulator is not fully open and the cutoff is high, so very little steam is going into the cylinders, just enough to keep up speed and maintain momentum, any more is a waste.  A diesel OTOH at full speed is working flat out unrelentingly when speed has risen to the maximum with a full load on a level road.  So fast running steam locos, especially large pacifics which could be kept going with very little steam having to be made or used, were often making quite soft and gentle sounds at the exhaust; they purred!

I can line up every physicist in the world to confirm that this is a misperception. The power required to maintain a conventional railway train at speed does not vary with the power source. For equivalent power output at speed, the steam loco is working just as hard at producing power as the very evident  blarting of the diesel loco suggests.

 

On a well designed loco, the regulator will be fully open, the cut off as short as will deliver the required power output, a thin blazing hot fire maintained by 'little and often' firing, and the steam supply at both maximum design pressure and superheat temperature. The volume of steam per power stroke will be much less than at low speed, and with efficient exhaust porting and an ejector type exhaust designed for minimal back pressure, the noise output is much reduced, and is largely masked by the inescapable mechanical noises of all those metal wheels on the rails.

 

This was very evident when it was possible to compare the prototype Deltic with its quite extraordinary sound output, with the Kylchap equipped Doncaster pacifics; my Pa (electronics engineer then in the employ of De Havs) was able to call on a most expert aerothermodynamicist to explain this to me, and from this I believe my path into physics was set. The railway as an aid to education!

 

Sadly even when running in what is the most thermally efficient mode for a Stephenson steamer, its thermal efficiency will be well short of that achieved by the noisier diesel at the same power output: the vast energy loss from the steamer's  condensing water is a 'silent thief'.

[Nearholmer]

42 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

I can line up every physicist in the world to confirm that this is a misperception

 

I'm glad you said that, because I was going to take Johnster up on it yesterday, with a quick reprise of the Davis Equation and modern amendments thereto, but it was, and still is, too bl00dy hot for such discussions.

 

I think the misperception arises because the in-efficiencies of a steam loco are so huge, and so visible/audible for most of the time, that when it it is working at its most efficient, which is still in-efficient compared with other motive power, it appears to be doing nothing.

[Tallpaul69]

Thanks for the learned discussions guys, but I agree the weather is too much like being permanently on a steamer's footplate!

 

I think I can probably get away (to my own satisfaction) with using sound chips in different locos to that they portray, so long as I am careful about the use of the whistles.

I will have to take care about posting any video clips with whistling on!!

Meanwhile I am busy praying for a few storms,

Regards

Paul

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

59 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... it was, and still is, too bl00dy hot for such discussions...

That's where you need physics. My home is situated atop a modest hill immediately south of dense oak woodland growing on a north facing slope. In continuous sunshine this arrangement draws the cooler air from the woodland into my shaded garden seating area for free, ensuring peak mental performance is maintained. Knowledge is power (and comfort).

[Nearholmer]

I’ve been toying with the idea of turning the wall of our garage into a solar chimney, in order to get some air-movement going round here, because living in a flat locale, I think that’s about the only way to do it.

 

In the interim, set garden hose to deliver a very, very fine mist, and rely on evaporative cooling.

 

Again, both physics.