BR Wagon Fleet Composition, 1956-58

[Guest WM183]

Hi folks.

I have a couple of questions regarding the composition of the BR wagon fleet toward the end of the 50s, say, between 1956 and 1958-59 or so. They deal pretty much with how I might go about deciding what sorts of wagons to build, so here goes:
 

1) Was there still many 9' wheelbase vans around? I know 10' was required for XP marking, but when did they really phase older 9' WB stock out?

2) With regard to opens, did the later all-steel LMS and LNER, along with BR designed open goods, versions, ever become dominant? What about earlier vacuum braked opens, like those from LNER or LMS with clasp brakes?
3) When did the PO mineral wagon fleet finally get more or less replaced with the new 16t opens? Would any still have been around in pre-BR livery at this point?

4) For that matter, how much stock, both passenger and goods, would be repainted by this time? 75%? 90%?
5) When did conflats become commonplace? How about the BR's standard 12t vans?

Thanks much!

Amanda

[TravisM]

Hi Amanda,

 

I don’t know the exact ratio of wagons but I seem to remember that some asked the same question a few years ago.  From what I remember, former PO wagons were kept until the ubiquitous 16t mineral wagons started coming on stream.  If they were still in good condition, they were generally patched up, given a lick of paint and soldiered on until enough wagons were built to replace them, and even them, some lasted until the mid 60’s.

[brossard]

I don't know the numbers with precision but I do know that 9' wooden bodied wagons were "ruthlessly" culled from about the mid 50's on.  With so many in the fleet you would expect some to hang around for quite some time.

 

My date is roughly 1962 and I have 3 ex PO wagons, suitably distressed, with P numbers on black patches.  I also have 4 steel mineral wagons, all of which are 9' WB.

 

Just to be rebellious, I just finished a pair of ex LMS 9' WB vans.

 

By the end of the 50s my guess is that more AVB fitted than unfitted were around.  You would be right, IMO, to build fitted wagons, but, for variety, throw in a few unfitted.

 

John

[LNER4479]

Hi,

 

I model in roughly the same period as yourself and my long time reference has been the Don Rowlands book 'British Railways Wagons - the first half million'. In it, he systematically describes the design and construction of each type of the British Rail 'Standard' wagon fleet and the vehicles they replaced. There is also a complete listing at the back of wagons types, diagram numbers, build dates, fitted / non-fitted and running numbers.

 

Armed with this information, I've studied many photographs of my chosen location / time period and you start to get the 'feel' of the balance of BR-built versus pre-1948 wagons in the 1950s era.

 

Looking specifically at your question 3, this is perhaps the most remarkably part of the story as the numbers are truly staggering and it is well summarised by Rowlands. In 1948, BR inherited roughly 1.25 million wagons, of which roughly half million were former PO coal wagons. These were replaced by roughly 250k(!) steel mineral wagons, the majority to the ubiquitous Diagram 1/108 (206,444 of them to be exact). The greatest concentration of this build was 1953-1957. Therefore, by 1956-1958 the numbers of former wooden-bodied PO wagons would be rapidly diminishing - photos usually show only the odd one here and there, in amongst a sea of steel body wagons. Rowlands highlights that there were still large numbers of grease axlebox PO wagons in 1948 and these were the priority for replacement. Virtually all trace of former markings would be gone; if not repainted then faded to nothing with random planks replaced (sometimes not even painted).

 

Note that, as predominantly unfitted wagons, the steel body minerals were actually 9 foot wheelbase (ref your question 1); the fitted wagons were on the longer 10 foot wheelbase (and of course there were other types with longer wheelbases than that). More modern types with longer wheelbases and better suspensions were developed in the 1960s but that's outside your time period.

 

There were already plenty of conflats around pre-1948, LMS and LNER especially having established designs. BR built new conflats throughout the 1950s, the most common type being the Conflat A, nearly 20,000 being built up to 1958.

 

12T vans? Most common diagram was Diagram 1/208 with - again - nearly 20,000 being built. But there were many pre-1948 van designs around as well still in front line use well into the 1960s. Overwhelmingly, study of photographs of 1950s goods trains shows a glorious mix of van body styles, with virtually no two alike. (note that diagram 1/208 could be built in either planked or ply style)

 

The mix of wagons can vary according to the location and routes running through it. For what I would call 'general' goods traffic (as opposed to specialised, block trains), I work on the basis of a rough 50:50 split between opens and vans. Fitted vs non-fitted? Again depends on the traffic flows. There were some fully-fitted express trains (for perishable or other time-sensitive traffic) but more often there would be a 'fitted head', ie fitted wagons at the front of the train with the rest unfitted. The various classifications of goods train types ('C', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'G' etc) were all specified according to the number and proportion of fitted wagons in the train. So, unless you have some very specific traffic flows in mind, a typical 1950s mix would probably be less than 50% fitted vehicles, particularly if you have a lot of (unfitted) coal wagons.

 

It all really started to change in the 1960s, with larger numbers of bogie wagons (eg tankers, freightliners), more fitted wagons, as British Rail desperately tried to stem the drastic fall off in traffic - but, again, outside your (and mine!) field of study.

Edited August 8, 2020 by LNER4479

[Fat Controller]

On 06/08/2020 at 18:48, WM183 said:

Hi folks.

I have a couple of questions regarding the composition of the BR wagon fleet toward the end of the 50s, say, between 1956 and 1958-59 or so. They deal pretty much with how I might go about deciding what sorts of wagons to build, so here goes:
 

1) Was there still many 9' wheelbase vans around? I know 10' was required for XP marking, but when did they really phase older 9' WB stock out?

2) With regard to opens, did the later all-steel LMS and LNER, along with BR designed open goods, versions, ever become dominant? What about earlier vacuum braked opens, like those from LNER or LMS with clasp brakes?
3) When did the PO mineral wagon fleet finally get more or less replaced with the new 16t opens? Would any still have been around in pre-BR livery at this point?

4) For that matter, how much stock, both passenger and goods, would be repainted by this time? 75%? 90%?
5) When did conflats become commonplace? How about the BR's standard 12t vans?

Thanks much!

Amanda

From the mid-1950s, there was a campaign to retro-fit vacuum brakes to 10' wb merchandise vehicles that had been built unfitted; these were mainly wartime, and early post-war builds. Once this was in progress, 9' unfitted (and later, fitted) merchandise stock was withdrawn: there were oddities:-

9' china-clay wagons

9' unfitted vans used on certain traffics on the Waverley line, serving customers with wagon turntables

9' Pallet Vans, converted from 9' fitted GWR 'Minks' , which were largely confined to a flow from Kirkcubright.

With regard to open wagons, all types lasted until the 1980s (LNER steel High, LMS/BR corrugated end and wooden end opens, GW, SR and LNER types ) .BR didn't introduce its own design for opens, simply continuing building LNER and LMS- designs. It did build a lot of both ordinary opens, and shock-fitted types.

There were ever-diminishing numbers of ex-PO types that survived into the 1960s; a lot ended their days on Loco-Coal duties. Some retained quite a bit of their original livery, occasionally with odd planks from other wagons; others were unpainted or grey.

Repainting depended where a wagon was overhauled. Main works might carry out a full repaint, but smaller establishments would only repaint what was absolutely essential. Thus wagons could last with traces of original livery for many years. The oddest I remember seeing was a freshly-painted ex-LNER Loco Coal, with black panels carrying the 'Loco Coal' lettering; this was three years after steam finished...

The problem is finding views that focus on more than the loco. Wagons have been the 'pauvre parent' until relatively recently, and photos of recognisable vehicles in trains are relatively few and far-between. It might be worth you looking at a few sites on line; Dave F, who posts daily on here, has albums of 1960s views, whilst Ernie Brack (Irish-Swiss Ernie) has albums of photos going back into the 1940s, and before.

[Aire Head]

Things would have changed massively between 1956 and to 1958/59.

 

When I researched for my mid 50s based project the ratios for merchandise stock was roughly.

 

1/3 Vans and 2/3rds Open.

 

2/3rds of Vans were fitted as opposed to 1/3rd of Opens.

 

Of course that doesn't factor in what these wagons were doing but it certainly showed me that I needed.

 

1) More Open Merchandise wagons than I had expected

2) A lot more unfitted wagons than I expected.

[The Johnster]

My time frame is a broad church, a whole decade 1948-58, and I try to maintain a general merchandise ratio of 50/50 vans/opens, 50/50 fitted/unfitted.  'Specialists' (insulated vans, shock absorbers, cattle, sand tipplers, and so on) are not included in this.  I have made a conscious effort to include as many liveries as possible in a relatively small fleet.  Minerals make up the bulk of the fleet (I model South Wales) and I do not have enough 7 plankers in PO livery with P numbers, and no plain wooden ones.  Yet.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

If I remember correctly Model Railway News had a series of articles in the70's on this subject.

 

Memory makes me want to say it was titled 'Getting the Balance Right' possibly written by Martin Waters?

 

But - it's getting on for fifty years ago - so I may have got it wrong.

 

Thanks

Phil H

[Guest WM183]

Thank you all so much for your replies! 

 

I am still deciding between 1950 or so and later, 1956-58 or so, and basically my choice comes down to whether or not I want BR standard engines to be present at all, and the wagons to be commonplace. As I purchased a kit for a BR standard class 4 mogul in 00, I suppose I at least want to run it! I'd also like an excuse to have some LMS paint or transition livery hanging about too.

This is a huge help, though. Knowing that 10' wheelbase vans in particular, but opens also, would have been at the  head of the line for upgrades and the like, with old PO wagons (Particularly with grease axleboxes) probably getting culled as quickly as possible, helps. I'd imagine the PO wagons that they kept the longest were the 1923 RCH spec ones, with 12 ton capacity. I think I will go roughly 50-50 between opens and vans, with mineral wagons *not* included in that total, but counted on their own. Of those, I'll probably do as was mentioned above, with perhaps 2/3 of vans and 1/3 of opens fitted. 

This is helpful! 
 

[Fat Controller]

29 minutes ago, WM183 said:

Thank you all so much for your replies! 

 

I am still deciding between 1950 or so and later, 1956-58 or so, and basically my choice comes down to whether or not I want BR standard engines to be present at all, and the wagons to be commonplace. As I purchased a kit for a BR standard class 4 mogul in 00, I suppose I at least want to run it! I'd also like an excuse to have some LMS paint or transition livery hanging about too.

This is a huge help, though. Knowing that 10' wheelbase vans in particular, but opens also, would have been at the  head of the line for upgrades and the like, with old PO wagons (Particularly with grease axleboxes) probably getting culled as quickly as possible, helps. I'd imagine the PO wagons that they kept the longest were the 1923 RCH spec ones, with 12 ton capacity. I think I will go roughly 50-50 between opens and vans, with mineral wagons *not* included in that total, but counted on their own. Of those, I'll probably do as was mentioned above, with perhaps 2/3 of vans and 1/3 of opens fitted. 

This is helpful! 
 

Something to note is that a lot of the 'new-build' unfitted stock was delivered with only the iron-work in grey, and all timber unpainted (apart for the black patches for lettering). 

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

Update - Seems I got the names mized up!

 

Model Railway News August 1974 - Don Rowlands  - Keepiong the balance Pt 2 (cant find partt  as havee some missing issues.

 

Model Railway News February 1975 - Martin Waters - Goods Train Formations

 

Thanks

Phil H

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Something to note is that a lot of the 'new-build' unfitted stock was delivered with only the iron-work in grey, and all timber unpainted (apart for the black patches for lettering). 

The original instruction was amongst those issued regarding liveries on 1/6/48.  Due to the austerity post war economy and the difficulty in obtaining paint, unfitted wooden open wagons and overhauled wooden minerals were not painted grey.  These were mostly the big 4 designs that were still in full production.  Wooden bodied vans were painted grey, never left unpainted, as the body had to be waterproofed (in theory at least).  Also, replacement planks for painted wagons were not to be painted.  

 

In the case of the XPO minerals, it was common for replacement planks to be obtained from whatever was lying around in the yards and collieries, so it was possible to see a filthy 7 planker with barely visible livery patched with old unpainted wood, new unpainted wood, or a plank from an different wagon with a completely different livery.  The game with these was to patch them up and keep them in service until the disintegrated, especially if they were loaded, and I can remember asking in the early 60s what 'OJO' chalked on the side of such a wagon meant.  It meant One Journey Only, for a loaded wagon, which was to be withdrawn from service as soon as it was unloaded.  But if there was an immediate shortage of empties for the pits, then it might even then be pressed back into service.

 

A regular supply of empties was essential to pit working; few collieries, in South Wales at least, had much room to keep a reservoir of empty wagons, and running out meant that there was nowhere for the coal being won underground to go, so work came to a stop fairly rapidly.

[Il Grifone]

I understand that the rule from, about 1955 at least, was that wooden wagons were not to be repainted apart from the ironwork, so that theoretically P.O.liveries would still be in place. My memories (late fifties - a long time ago now) are of wooden wagons not being particularly uncommon (we climbed into one once!*) and being grey. I would have been quite excited to see one in P.O. livery - as I was on seeing 'G W' in large letters on a van once.

* It wasn't enough fun to repeat and we shouldn't have been in the goods yard anyway!

 

The clay wagons were 9 foot wheelbase because on the unloading arrangements at Fowey. The new buildswere basically straight replacements for the old GWR design. Despite the Ratio model, most did not have roller bearings.

 

Grease boxes were the norm for P.O. wagons (the bosses didn't have to recharge them!). I read somewhere that there was a mystery as to why the boxes were open and the grease gone. Investigation found that the local crows had worked out how to open them and then ate the grease with the assistance of the neighbourhood sheep.

(Possibly apocryphal of course!)

Edited November 19, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

Grease boxes were the norm for P.O. wagons (the bosses didn't have to recharge them!). I read somewhere that there was a mystery as to why the boxes were open and the grease gone. Investigation found that the local crows had worked out how to open them and then ate the grease with the assistance of the neighbourhood sheep.

(Possibly apocryphal of course!)

 

PO wagons to the RCH 1923 specification had oil axleboxes; I'm not really well-up on the 1950s scene but I would have supposed that although they only accounted for around half the ex-PO wagon fleet at nationalisation, being the newer ones they would have been the last to be withdrawn with the deluge of 16 ton steel mineral wagons?

 

I did read that rolling stock exported to Russia in the 19th century had to be supplied with non-poisonous grease as there had been cases of peasants being poisoned.

[Cwmtwrch]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

PO wagons to the RCH 1923 specification had oil axleboxes; I'm not really well-up on the 1950s scene but I would have supposed that although they only accounted for around half the ex-PO wagon fleet at nationalisation, being the newer ones they would have been the last to be withdrawn with the deluge of 16 ton steel mineral wagons?

Essentially, yes. The 'big 4' didn't like grease boxes, so there were few railway owned ones left by 1948. They couldn't do anything about PO wagons, if the owner was uncooperative, as they were private property, and they couldn't refuse the traffic either. BR scrapped grease box PO wagons asap after they inherited them, but it took a while.

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I understand that the rule from, about 1955 at least, was that wooden wagons were not to be repainted apart from the ironwork, so that theoretically P.O.liveries would still be in place. My memories (late fifties - a long time ago now) are of wooden wagons not being particularly uncommon (we climbed into one once!*) and being grey. I would have been quite excited to see one in P.O. livery - as I was on seeing 'G W' in large letters on a van once.

* It wasn't enough fun to repeat and we shouldn't have been in the goods yard anyway!

 

The clay wagons were 9 foot wheelbase because on the unloading arrangements at Fowey. The new buildswere basically straight replacements for the old GWR design. Despite the Ratio model, most did not have roller bearings.

 

Grease boxes were the norm for P.O. wagons (the bosses didn't have to recharge them!). I read somewhere that there was a mystery as to why the boxes were open and the grease gone. Investigation found that the local crows had worked out how to open them and then ate the grease with the assistance of the neighbourhood sheep.

(Possibly apocryphal of course!)

Sheep at Dowlais also learned this trick in the late 60s, so coal trains coming down from Cwmbargoed opencast would screech to a seized standstill within a mile or so despite the gradient and having the boxes topped up just before departure (the sheep simply ran around the other side and emptied those axleboxes).   For those of you living on Romney Marsh or in similar places, Dowlais sheep do not look or behave like little fluffy clouds in a grass sky; these are bred for wool and are scraggy, feral, ugly, ill-tempered, generally unpleasant even at a distance, and highly delinquent in character, as you’d expect from creatures that eke out a living on the bleak and exposed 1,800ft heights of Dowlais Top, where the rain comes up at you from below even in what passes for summer up there.  
 

MGR working defeated them, but the brakes were carp and descents to Ystrad Mynach were sometime ‘interesting’.  Nerves of steel, we ‘ad, boyo, nerves of steel, wills of iron, hearts of ice, and knobs of butter. 
 

For the sandwiches. 

 

 

 

[Artless Bodger]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I did read that rolling stock exported to Russia in the 19th century had to be supplied with non-poisonous grease as there had been cases of peasants being poisoned.

Reminds me of the story that Russian prisoners of war, held in the Medway towns during the Crimean war, were known to climb lamp posts to drink the lamp oil. 

 

[Il Grifone]

Now it's mentioned, I seem to recall that it was actually Dowlais referred to above.