And people think larger scales are expensive?

[Nearholmer]

JI,

 

But why do you (and some others) feel so strongly about it?
 

That’s what intrigues me.

 

As an aside, his comparison could be read as being between a very soundly engineered real working miniature steam locomotive, and a sophisticated plastic toy train. It’s all in the way you tell it.

 

KP

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Nearholmer

[melmerby]

It's just the totally invalid comparison which is used to excuse a particular choice, as if there wa some doubt.

I don't see why a comparison is needed at all. It's inviting ridicule.

 

If you want to run live steam that's a choice you make and a larger gauge is logical as live steam is a more practical proposition.

If I wanted to run live steam a Roundhouse loco would be a good starting point, simple and robust with spares readily available but I wouldn't feel the need to compare it to something else, because it's one of a kind.

 

In the same way Loveless steam locos are exquisite models of the real thing. they are as far removed from a Millie, as Millie is from a BP.

Yer pays yer money and makes yer choice!

[tomparryharry]

Let's see, a scale train formation. I'll keep it in 00, but others can work out their own scales & gauges. Let's say, a 50-wagon mineral train. 

 

Locomotive x 1:-  £150 (approx). 

 

50 mineral wagons:-  50 x £22.50 (approx) £ 1,125

 

Guards van  £21.00

 

Add it all up:-  £1,296  give or take a fishplate... Also, before DCC, or sound. 

 

Little wonder, therefore, that the real market is rolling stock. No motors to blow, chips to fry, just pop them into a pretty box, and bang on. One continues to wonder whether major manufacturers will want to make new locomotives, when the big bucks are in wagons. 

 

Doubtless other posters will have their own theories .

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Talltim]

33 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

Let's see, a scale train formation. I'll keep it in 00, but others can work out their own scales & gauges. Let's say, a 50-wagon mineral train. 

 

Locomotive x 1:-  £150 (approx). 

 

50 mineral wagons:-  50 x £22.50 (approx) £ 1,125

 

Guards van  £21.00

 

Add it all up:-  £1,296  give or take a fishplate... Also, before DCC, or sound. 

 

Little wonder, therefore, that the real market is rolling stock. No motors to blow, chips to fry, just pop them into a pretty box, and bang on. One continues to wonder whether major manufacturers will want to make new locomotives, when the big bucks are in wagons. 

 

Doubtless other posters will have their own theories .

 

Cheers,

Ian.

In the US, two of the big manufacturers have only ever made freight vehicles

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, Talltim said:

In the US, two of the big manufacturers have only ever made freight vehicles

Freight is much more popular in the US IMHO probably due to the major lack of passenger trains in large areas of the US for many years now.

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by melmerby

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

JI,

 

But why do you (and some others) feel so strongly about it?
 

That’s what intrigues me.

 

As an aside, his comparison could be read as being between a very soundly engineered real working miniature steam locomotive, and a sophisticated plastic toy train. It’s all in the way you tell it.

 

KP

 

 

 

Nope - he said "OO has really rocketed in price. I'm glad I jumped ship"; a straight (misleading) comparison on price.

 

I don't feel strongly about the large scale / small scale (non) issue - I feel strongly about idiotic and pointless statements, intended to provoke argument; (akin to trolling).

 

In that, he succeeded!

 

John Isherwood.

 

PS. "....very soundly engineered real working miniature steam locomotive.... "; "sophisticated plastic toy train". Are "miniature .... locomotive" and "sophisticated ..... toy train" interchangeable in this context? Discuss!

Edited August 7, 2020 by cctransuk

[Nearholmer]

13 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

I feel strongly about idiotic and pointless statements, intended to provoke argument; (akin to trolling).

But would some power the giftie gie us .......

[cctransuk]

Just now, Nearholmer said:

But would some power the giftie gie us .......

 

If I understood what that meant - I might well agree.

 

John Isherwood.

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

Little wonder, therefore, that the real market is rolling stock. No motors to blow, chips to fry, just pop them into a pretty box, and bang on. One continues to wonder whether major manufacturers will want to make new locomotives, when the big bucks are in wagons. 

 

Which is odd, because one of the major manufacturers admitted that they money is in locos. People begrudge paying for non-motorised rolling stock.

 

I find it telling that having kicked this off, there is no sign of the OP...

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

I find it telling that having kicked this off, there is no sign of the OP...

 

There, there - I told you so - a troll!

 

John Isherwood.

[tomparryharry]

1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Which is odd, because one of the major manufacturers admitted that they money is in locos. People begrudge paying for non-motorised rolling stock.

 

I find it telling that having kicked this off, there is no sign of the OP...

 

You might well be seeing a different perspective, Phil. People do indeed begrudge paying out for non-motorised stock. Actually, that's not quite right. I'd guess people begrudge paying out on stock which is quickly approaching parity with the aforementioned locomotive. It's nothing to do with expecting people to 'give it away', and far, far from it. Some of the quality & fidelity of the model locomotives  is-are  exquisite, and rightly command what is now, reasonable values. However, the humble wagon is a different matter entirely. 

 

I haven't seen the OP, but there's a chap at the local A+E with third-degree burns on the fingertips. The keyboard suffered 'spontaneous combustion'.....  

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Listerboy]

I had thought that putting this topic in the section marked 'Modelling musings & miscellany' would highlight this as a non serious post, just reflecting what I personally have been told at exhibitions. I make all my rolling stock from raw materials, with the exception of wheels, axleboxes and couplings. My locos are kit built, or modified Faller or other G scale, made to look more British. 

 

I've attached a picture of one of my coaches, it needs a few more decals. The chassis is wood, the body was 2 cereal boxes. The cost? About £5 to £7.

[Nearholmer]

Very nice!

 

There is something uniquely satisfying about building things in the bigger scales from traditional raw materials.

[PaulRhB]

10 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

I'd guess people begrudge paying out on stock which is quickly approaching parity with the aforementioned locomotive.

Ok so apart from electronics and motor how much less design work is there in a piece of stock than a loco?

A simple wagon has less parts so is faster to assemble but a coach or wagon with a lot of detail probably takes ⅔ the time so rapidly approaches the same assembly cost. As mentioned to then charge £100 for it wouldn’t sell well so things like the observation saloon and polybulk are priced at what the market will pay but don’t have the same margin. Then we see the locos profit margin pushed to compensate  

You have to look across the whole range to make money, that’s why the specialists in the US who only do wagons charge a bigger margin as they have no other revenue stream. 
Back in the 90’s I worked for an etched kit manufacturer and there were regular questions why coaches cost nearly the same as loco kits so we gave a basic breakdown. 
Common to both kits, Eg class 25 & Mk1

Research & development

Pre-rolled etched body. 

Etched body detail. 
Underframe castings. 
Bogie etches, castings & 4 axles. 
Bearings. 
 

Unique to loco

Motor & gears

Cab detail 

 

Unique to coach 

plastic seating strips

Etched interior dividers, tables. 

So the actual difference was about £20 in materials!

The same is still true in kits now and is very similar in rtr. Therefore you put the margin on certain items because you know how the human brain works! It happens across all products and look at the extremes in printers and inks where they reverse it and sell you the complicated bit cheap because they can make the profit on the but you need to run it! That doesn’t cause much moaning does it? And when you do moan cheap inks wrecked my printer you’re surprised it’s excluded from the warranty  

As pointed out above you need to compare truly comparable items but also look at what they do in the range. Start sets are often loss leaders with virtually no margin to hook you in. Those who use them to scratchbuild on get cheap model railways but that’s got to take the other reasons and their time into account  

[PaulRhB]

7 hours ago, Listerboy said:

I've attached a picture of one of my coaches, it needs a few more decals. The chassis is wood, the body was 2 cereal boxes. The cost? About £5 to £7.

Modelling time at commercial rates?

 

Very nice and true value would easily match the rtr stuff from Accucraft and I suspect you would be able to charge more because they are custom handmade  

The essence is it’s a hobby so we write off the time as fun. Wheeler dealers always makes me smile because their ‘profit’ ignores all Ed / Ant’s time because the premise is if you did it yourself as a hobby. 

[rob D2]

I think maybe we are taking the OP post too seriously .

 

Larger scales are actually cheaper - I could trade 20 OO locos in and just have one O scale with sound smoke and pro weathering ....because that is all I could fit on a 10’ plank...going up and down .

 

We all have too many locos generally. That’s because a) that’s where the character and glamour is and b ) need a variety to look realistic ( I model  EWS And those worked in nationwide pools so you’d often never see the same stuff twice )

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Very nice!

 

There is something uniquely satisfying about building things in the bigger scales from traditional raw materials.

However you could still do it 00 and wouldn't need to eat so many cornflakes, so it would be cheaper.

 

I remember years ago when the back of one of the cereal packs actually had cut out (N/TT gauge?) model trains.

[Nearholmer]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

However you could still do it 00 and wouldn't need to eat so many cornflakes, so it would be cheaper

There is nothing satisfying about working in a scale that gives me eye strain!

[Listerboy]

54 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Modelling time at commercial rates?

 

Very nice and true value would easily match the rtr stuff from Accucraft and I suspect you would be able to charge more because they are custom handmade  

The essence is it’s a hobby so we write off the time as fun. Wheeler dealers always makes me smile because their ‘profit’ ignores all Ed / Ant’s time because the premise is if you did it yourself as a hobby. 

 

I have no intention of selling them, they're running quite happily on my railway. The cost refers to the financial cost to me. The modeling I enjoy. 

[Listerboy]

16 minutes ago, melmerby said:

However you could still do it 00 and wouldn't need to eat so many cornflakes, so it would be cheaper.

 

I remember years ago when the back of one of the cereal packs actually had cut out (N/TT gauge?) model trains.

 

I would have no need to do it in OO, as there are plenty of coaches and wagons out there, and the card thickness lends itself to 16 rather than 4mm.  

 

There's a great deal more than just cutting out 4 sides and gluing them together. 

[hayfield]

Looking at Parkside kits the cost of 7 mm items is about 3.5 times dearer than 4mm items, they are about 3.5 times the mass so in this instance the prices are similar

 

Looking at small Dapol locos 7 mm locos are about twice the cost of 4mm locos (even though their mass is much greater

 

Peco medium radius turnout £15 in 00 gauge, just under£ 60 in 7mm, though flexi track 7 mm is under twice the cost

 

Locos seem better value, track and wagons about the same cost per size

 

Certainly in recent years the cost of 4mm scale has increased and the cost of 7mm decreased, but I would expect a modeler would still spend similar amounts which ever scale they use, simply more items in 4 mm scale or bigger items in 7mm scale

[PaulRhB]

33 minutes ago, Listerboy said:

 

I have no intention of selling them, they're running quite happily on my railway. The cost refers to the financial cost to me. The modeling I enjoy. 

That’s exactly the point I was making  

At the end of the day as long as you perceive the value in an item it doesn’t matter what it cost you. As ably demonstrated by your post modelling can be cheap in whatever scale if you supply creativity and labour as part of the hobby. 
I’ve got six small 16mm locos & trams that all cost under £70 in parts but a rtr version of a similar size varies between £200-£500 from Regner to Roundhouse  

I still see the value in my LGB 2-10-2 that cost £1000 ten years or more ago though  

[Hibelroad]

There are bargains to be had in all scales depending what your modelling aims are. Twenty years ago OO  RTR was mediocre at best, the current models are excellent in terms of accuracy and finish. The price compares well with kit or scratch building if you factor in the extra cost of tools which would be needed to create models of comparable quality. . 

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, rob D2 said:

Larger scales are actually cheaper - I could trade 20 OO locos in and just have one O scale with sound smoke and pro weathering ....because that is all I could fit on a 10’ plank...going up and down .

 

Can I just point out that in the world of Garden Rail, O gauge is "smaller scales"

1 hour ago, rob D2 said:

We all have too many locos generally.

 

True. I have 3 16mm battery-powered Simplex diesels. All are 32mm gauge, and I don't actually own a 32mm gauge railway!

 

As for the Regner steam loco that arrived this week to someone who doesn't really do steam...

[Steamport Southport]

11 hours ago, Listerboy said:

I had thought that putting this topic in the section marked 'Modelling musings & miscellany' would highlight this as a non serious post, just reflecting what I personally have been told at exhibitions. I make all my rolling stock from raw materials, with the exception of wheels, axleboxes and couplings. My locos are kit built, or modified Faller or other G scale, made to look more British. 

 

I've attached a picture of one of my coaches, it needs a few more decals. The chassis is wood, the body was 2 cereal boxes. The cost? About £5 to £7.

 

Very nice.

 

But how much do Hornby four wheel coaches cost nowadays? About a fiver if you look in the bargain bins.

 

Or a GEM 009 Bug Box kit is about the same price.

 

http://www.lytchettmanor.co.uk/lytchett-manor/oo-9-rolling-stock

 

 It was the pointless price comparison that irked people.

 

 

 

Jason