Post-1918 / Pre-1940 War Dept wagons?

[george stein]

Were there distinctive Big Four type wagons exclusively for War Department use in the inter-war period?  Distinctive livery & markings?

[Nearholmer]

I've wondered about this too, and from what I've discovered so far, which almost certainly isn't the whole story, I think the answer is "no". I think that the WD shed wagons at the end of WW1, and acquired again at the start of WW2.

 

This site contains some useful information, but I do know that it isn't a comprehensive picture (it doesn't mention the late-WW1 Rectank wagons, for instance)  http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/index.htm

 

Some other sources say that the WW1 40T Parrot*/Warflat (armoured fighting vehicle carrying) wagons were transferred to LMS ownership, then requisitioned back at the start of WW2.

 

Most military material, including ammunition, was carried in railway company, rather than WD, wagons, even during WW1 and WW2, and the vast majority of "internal user" wagons on military railways were requisitioned or purchased ex-railway company vehicles. However, during WW2 the Southern did build a batch of "pillbox" brake vans specifically for WD to use on military railways,.

 

The other wagon fleet to consider for WW2 is that provided by USATC, some of which were used in Britain, but that is outside your period.

 

I will be very interested to read what others contribute to this discussion.

 

* Not to be confused with a different type of Parrot wagon built during WW2 to carry aircraft parts.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Wickham Green too]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

......... However, during WW2 the Southern did build a batch of "pillbox" brake vans specifically for WD to use on military railways, ...........

 

 

To split hairs, it was two batches of twenty - but Ashford built an awful lot more besides : 75 ramp wagons, 100 tank wagons, 1600 open goods wagons & 25 warwells - did I miss anything ? - not to mention innumerable goods vans and opens ( to REC order ) for all four 'grouping' companies ........ and, of course the 'military railways' involved weren't just the UK ones but across many theatres of conflict too.

[Nearholmer]

Oh, I thought the pillboxes for the WD were built at Eastleigh, not that it matters.

 

I “copped” a couple of these vans still in military ownership, lurking at the Yardley Chase military railway, in I think 1982. That line was still ‘Secret’ at that date, but I’ve since found out that it served oodles of bunkers in a forest, Rumoured to store nuclear weapons, and the army had taken-over the remnants of the ex-MR branch from Northampton, so it was a fair length, but I have a feeling it was already OOU when I came across it while out on a bike ride one Sunday morning.

 

The only good photo I’ve seen of the line https://www.flickr.com/photos/142340440@N04/26153051323

 

(The army had quite a fleet of these North British 200hp 0-4-0DH, which were essentially the same as the BR locos D2700-08)

 

 

Back to topic.....

Edited August 8, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Some other sources say that the WW1 40T Parrot*/Warflat (armoured fighting vehicle carrying) wagons were transferred to LMS ownership, then requisitioned back at the start of WW2.

 

There is some information on Warflats in LNWR Wagons Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 2011). 

 

The LNWR bought 40 of the 35 ton Rectanks from the WD in 1921, giving them diagram D109. These were designed under the auspices of the Railway Executive Committee (hence the name) but most of the design work was done at Derby, where most were built, though 40 were built at Swindon and some by the L&Y. After the war, the GWR bought 40 - possibly the ones they'd built - the Midland and NER bought another 40 each. The LNWR and Midland adapted them in different ways, since they are recorded on different pages of the LMS Diagram Book of Specially Constructed Wagons, p 12 for ex-LNWR wagons, coded BBA, and p 13 for ex-Midland ones. Some of these were requisitioned in WWII, with eight GWR examples lost in France in 1940 - but of these, five were recovered in 1945 and returned to GWR stock.

 

The LNWR also purchased 25 of the 40 ton Parrots in 1921, from a batch of 250 built by Leeds Forge to an order of July 1917. The LNWR gave them diagram D110; the LMS put them on page 18 of the Specially Constructed Wagons book, coded BBZ. These remained LMS and then BR property into the late 50s, i.e. it appears they were not requisitioned in WWII. On page 19 of the same book, the LMS recorded 412 Parrots listed as being of Midland Railway origin but given numbers in the Midland, LNWR, and Caledonian blocks. This appears to be because they were purchased in 1923/4 and were given numbers of withdrawn wagons. On p 20 were listed a further 17 ex-Midland Parrots, given code FVF.

 

Not all were sold by the WD after WWI. The authors of LNWR Wagons state "The basic design was so successful that the army retained a stock of them and built [sic] more for use in WWII."

 

There were a large number of long-wheelbase 4-wheel 20 ton vans with very Midland-style sliding doors built for the WD at Derby, Ashford, Lancing and maybe elsewhere. A number of these were sold to the Societe Belgo-Anglaise des Ferry Boats for use on the Harwich - Zeebrugge train ferry service.  They've been discussed recently:

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

Very useful, especially the nugget that not all WW1 Parrots were sold by WD. Maybe the same is true of Rectanks and Polls.

 

What we need is a picture of an inter-war AFV train, or wagons stored somewhere. I will keep hunting.

 

The first place to go with a query like this ought to be the Museum of Army Transport, but since it was closed, and the collection strewn all over the place ages ago, that is irritatingly impossible.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Oh, I thought the pillboxes for the WD were built at Eastleigh, not that it matters.  .......

Apologies - I thought I'd better double check and while the majority of the Southern's wartime wagon building was at Ashford, the first batch of WD brake vans, the Air Ministry tank wagons and the Warwells were built at Lancing ......... obviously Eastleigh were too busy with 8Fs and rescue launches !

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Very useful, especially the nugget that not all WW1 Parrots were sold by WD. Maybe the same is true of Rectanks and Polls.

 

What we need is a picture of an inter-war AFV train, or wagons stored somewhere. I will keep hunting.

 

The first place to go with a query like this ought to be the Museum of Army Transport, but since it was closed, and the collection strewn all over the place ages ago, that is irritatingly impossible.

 

 

You could try Bovington; if AFVs were transported by rail, they might well have records. Most inter-war tanks seem to have been quite small, so may well have been carried on Lowmacs, or even low-sided merchandise opens.

[Nearholmer]

You’re probably right - some of the MoAT collection went there, and it’s a place I’d like to visit if/when circumstances permit.

 

The British light tanks of the inter-war period were so tiny as to look comical. There are some great Pathe news films available via You Tube showing various exercises and manoeuvres from 1930 onwards, which are well worth a watch.

 

I don’t think even the biggest inter-war tanks would have needed wagons that didn’t already exist by the end of WW1, and, as you say, many of the mechanised vehicles would have fitted in/on ordinary wagons.

 

Ideal would be an S-scale display, because Dinky made all the key vehicles in C1:60 scale, although they are ‘highly collectible’, which is a synonym for expensive.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Tony Cane]

The Book Southern Wagon Pictorial by Mike King has two pictures of interwar tanks on railway wagons. In both cases the tanks are carried on ex LSWR machinery wagons, both 4 and 6 wheel, or an ex SECR Well wagon. The tanks are Vickers Medium MKII types, available from Milicast in 1/76 scale, The 4 Wheel LSWR machinery wagon is in the David Geen range, some are available from W M Collectables, at a price.

 

Both picture sources are the Tank Museum, though one is via a 1934 German publication!!!!!

[Nearholmer]

Brilliant.

 

That tallies with the one semi-relevant Inter-war image that I could find on-line, which showed a field-gun and limber being loaded onto what I’m fairly certain was an ex-LSWR 4W machinery wagon.

 

Here are the Dinkies. Superb models considering that they are contemporary with the real things but mostly very rare due to Mazak rot.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

34 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Brilliant.

 

That tallies with the one semi-relevant Inter-war image that I could find on-line, which showed a field-gun and limber being loaded onto what I’m fairly certain was an ex-LSWR 4W machinery wagon.

 

Here are the Dinkies. Superb models considering that they are contemporary with the real things but mostly very rare due to Mazak rot.

 

 

Thanks for posting that; I was completely unaware of these models. Is it my imagination, or is there someone cycling past the tank in the last-but-one photo?

[Nearholmer]

I think there is!

 

The various tanks at this time seem to have had top speeds of 15mph and 30mph, so he wouldn’t have needed to pedal very hard.

[dvdlcs]

20 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Here are the Dinkies. Superb models considering that they are contemporary with the real things but mostly very rare due to Mazak rot.

 

Interesting addition in the advert. By my reckoning the total for the five individual items would be 3 shillings 5 1/2d yet you can have the complete set for only 1/2d more than the individual components!

[Nearholmer]

You got a nice box, though!