gauge one Midland in Gauge 1

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said:

Re the solebars, I hesitate to say, but thought they were timber on your wagon, in common with most Midland wagons.

 

It will make the build easier......

 

This wagon is featured the Midland Record  wagons special, if you haven't got your own copy I'll happily drop one in the post to you!

 

The wagon Richard is building is a D339/D339A double bolster wagon (25'0" over headstocks; 15'0" wheelbase, fixed sides); the one in Midland Record No. 2 Supplement is the D336/D336A long lowside wagon (20'6" over headstocks, 14'7" wheelbase, drop sides). In a private email exchange with Richard I discussed the differences between the two: the D336 underframe is basically the same as the standard 14'11" over headstocks, 9'0" wheelbase underframe, discussed here:

but with extra-long middle longitudinals - rather on the stretch limo principle. The D339 is arranged differently, apparently with the middle bearers at around 5'0" spacing (judging from the position of the side knees) and hence long end longitudinals and diagonals. Both have wooden solebars of the standard 11" x 4.5" cross-section but both have these strengthened on the outside by a 1/4" thick steel plate. On the D336, this plate is flat and the wagon has the usual side rail supporting the hinged dropside; on D339, from the diagram, this plate is L-shaped with the angled part supporting the side - no side rail.

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a copy of the drawing no. 1113 for the double bolster wagon but unfortunately it's not one of the drawings for which a scan has been posted on the website. I have enquired if a scan does exist (the Study Centre collection being currently unavailable) but have not yet heard back.

[Tricky]

8 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

Beautiful work Richard, great to see some decent G1 modelling!

 

Re the solebars, I hesitate to say, but thought they were timber on your wagon, in common with most Midland wagons.

 

It will make the build easier......

 

This wagon is featured the Midland Record  wagons special, if you haven't got your own copy I'll happily drop one in the post to you!

 

Simon

The solebars were definitely clad, hence no external straps for the W irons. I have a copy of the Midland Record specials - didn’t think to look in there!

[Tricky]

18 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

Beautiful work Richard, great to see some decent G1 modelling!

 

Re the solebars, I hesitate to say, but thought they were timber on your wagon, in common with most Midland wagons.

 

It will make the build easier......

 

This wagon is featured the Midland Record  wagons special, if you haven't got your own copy I'll happily drop one in the post to you!

 

Simon

I stand corrected - the wagon in the supplement doesn’t have external straps for the W-irons either! Perhaps this could be my next one? If anyone knows of a nice turn of the century motor car model or something similar in 1:32 to grace it?

Edited August 13, 2020 by Tricky

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, Tricky said:

I stand corrected - the wagon in the supplement doesn’t have external straps for the W-irons either! Perhaps this could be my next one? I’d anyone knows of a nice turn or the century motor car model or something similar in 1:32 to grace it?

 

A turn of the century motor car would almost certainly have travelled in a covered carriage truck or, a few years later, a motor car van either goods or passenger rated. All very interesting vehicles and, being enclosed, you don't have to model the motor car! Although you could do a cameo of one being loaded at an end-loading dock...

[Not Jeremy]

Oooops - thank you for that, I stand corrected

 

Do you know, I hadn't twigged that at all, despite contemplating building a model for myself. It is now clearly the case looking at the drawing, notes and photograph, in fact it is blindingly obvious.

 

And its a different wagon too - I really must pay more attention!

 

I still fancy building one of the Dia 336 wagons though. I already have a suitable vehicle for a load, a vintage lorry I cobbled together from an Airfix "Old Bill" type bus kit for "Pomparles Siding" - it makes quite a convincing old lorry.

 

Keep up the good work!!

 

I'll keep quiet at the back....

 

Simon

 

 

[Tricky]

Some more modest progress today, I keep picking away at it. The bolts arrived today so I’ve had a go at fitting a few. They are insane. Enough to drive anyone completely bonkers! They scale correctly but somehow look too small. Too late now though, I shall persevere. But getting them spot on in line is nigh on impossible. 

In other news as you can see I’ve fitted the soleplates and temporarily set it on its wheels for the first time. The track has been painted and ballasted; further weathering to be done when it’s dry. 

[Tricky]

I’m wondering about these Historex bolts. I’ve sized them according to @Compound2632’s prototype sizes but I think they all come up small. I wonder if @airnimal might be able to advise? I think if I can get some slightly larger ones I’ll then have a go at drilling them out. 

[34006]

It is possible that the heads are one size smaller than normal bolts.I know the GWR did do this on loco buffers,and buffer beams.I think it must have been a bean counters money saving device.

 

atb

 

Phil.

Edited August 13, 2020 by 34006
Further thought!

[airnimal]

Tricky, I am sorry that the Masterclub hex bolts were to small. I hope they will come in useful in your 7mm modelling and will not be wasted. I am afraid I model by eye and if something looks right then I will use it. If something is a few thou out then provided it is not to obvious that's fine by me. 

I have only ever done a couple of things in Gauge 1 for myself plus I have built 5 or 6 etched kits for my friend Peter. I found the Gauge 1 / 10 mm scale a pain that's utterly bonkers. 

Have you looked at the nuts and bolts from the BA range. I don't know how 16 BA would scale out but it might be worth measuring a few ?

Mike

[Compound2632]

How does the width of the nut compare with the bolt diameter? 

 

Midland Wagons Plate 41 is the best close-up view I can find. This wagon is most likely D302 or D663A, the drawings for which are in Midland Record No. 2 Supplement. On the axleguard wing-plate, which is 2¼" wide, the nut is about two-thirds to three-quarters of the width, say 1½" - 1¾". The drawings show these to be ⅞" bolts*, so I'd take this as being consistent with the nut being twice the bolt diameter, over its corners; with over flats being a factor of cos 30 less. I don't know what thread the Midland was using but looking at a table of modern Whitworth bolts, a ⅞" bolt has width over flats of 1.48" if to BS 190 or 1.30" if to BS 1083 - that's 1.70" or 1.50" over corners. BS 1083:1965 and BS 190:1924 are the versions I can find; I believe these date are the most recent revisions. I also read the head sizes were reduced by one size during WWII; presumably codified in BS 1083. Therefore I think we can take it the the larger head sizes - roughly twice the bolt diameter over corners or 1.7 times over flats - apply to this 1990s wagon.

 

*On your wagon, if like others of the 1880s/90s, these bolts are ¾" - presumably they went up a size when the load was increased from 8 tons to 10 tons.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Compound2632

[Tricky]

More detailing today. I’ve got as far as I can with the above solebar details until some bigger bolts arrive and the couplings from Slaters. I’ve got the bolsters to do but holiday beckons so they will have to wait. 
 

The length of display track is finished and I’ve ordered a bespoke acrylic display case for it. 
 

The rope tying points are actually pinned to the solebars with some of the ridiculously small bolts. All the other bolts so far have been done using the biggest size I bought, so when some even bigger ones arrive I’ll be able to deal with the acne that’s broken out in readiness. 

Dave Harris of the Midland Study Centre came up trumps with a scanned official drawing which amongst other interesting features seems to show individual backing plates in the internal corners, whereas photos seem to show square plates. I’ve gone with the drawing but I’m not sure as it looks too fussy. 
 

 

[Tricky]

On 13/08/2020 at 12:02, Compound2632 said:

 

A turn of the century motor car would almost certainly have travelled in a covered carriage truck or, a few years later, a motor car van either goods or passenger rated. All very interesting vehicles and, being enclosed, you don't have to model the motor car! Although you could do a cameo of one being loaded at an end-loading dock...

I wonder what sort of vehicle or load would be suitable for a long drop side?

 

And incidentally any ideas for a load for the double bolster other than the ubiquitous tree trunk? 

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Tricky said:

And incidentally any ideas for a load for the double bolster other than the ubiquitous tree trunk? 

 

Square sawn timber? Iron/steel rails, girders, or other long fabrications? - up to the load limit, which may mean looking up densities etc. Signal posts/components?

 

Examples from Warwickshire Railways (Lawley Street):

 

Empty D339 but square timber on a pair of timber trucks - steel sections piled up on the ground.

Same again from a different angle.

Unsawn logs on Great Western vehicles - also in the previous picture, from a different angle (very rural, the Western).

[Tricky]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Square sawn timber? Iron/steel rails, girders, or other long fabrications? - up to the load limit, which may mean looking up densities etc. Signal posts/components?

 

Examples from Warwickshire Railways (Lawley Street):

 

Empty D339 but square timber on a pair of timber trucks - steel sections piled up on the ground.

Same again from a different angle.

Unsawn logs on Great Western vehicles - also in the previous picture, from a different angle (very rural, the Western).

Yes, would have been the most likely loads I guess. 
I’m sure I’ve seen a photo of a Rolls Royce chassis being loaded onto something - probably in either Midland Wagons 1 or 2. 

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Tricky said:

I’m sure I’ve seen a photo of a Rolls Royce chassis being loaded onto something - probably in either Midland Wagons 1 or 2. 

 

That's into a motor car van.

 

Re loads for the double bolster, the BR era loading instructions on the Barrowmore Model Railway Group site may provide inspiration as well as authenticity - scroll down almost to the end.

[MR Chuffer]

6 hours ago, Tricky said:

probably in either Midland Wagons 1 or 2. 

Page 104, Midland Wagons 1, D.336.

Edited August 16, 2020 by MR Chuffer

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That's into a motor car van.

 

2 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

Page 104, Midland Wagons 1, D.336.

 

I'm away from my books but @MR Chuffer you've jogged my memory. One photo of a RR chassis being end-loaded into a motor car van, the other of one being craned into a long low?

[Dave Hunt]

Would such things as naval gun barrels or ships' masts have been transported on the double bolsters?

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Would such things as naval gun barrels or ships' masts have been transported on the double bolsters?

 

Ship's masts - too long?

Naval gun barrels - too heavy?

 

The double bolster wagons, Lots 383 and 422, were rated 8 tons; the girder wagons, with the extra stanchions, Lot 639, were rated 12 tons, according to Drg. 1113. @Tricky has modelled the 8 ton version with just the pair of bolsters at 15 ft centres. In Midland Wagons that seems to be D339A which is curious as it's the earlier version. 

 

I wouldn't have thought wooden ships masts or spars would be an inland traffic anyway - I believe by the late 19th century and for a good while earlier, the main supply had been from the Baltic - one reason why the British government was so anxious to keep Denmark from allying with Napoleonic France. So distribution by coastal shipping seems more likely. Steel masts might be another matter. When did they start to be used?

[Dave Hunt]

I have read that steel masts were used on the 'windjammers' of the late 19th century and that steel spars and even masts featured on some of the fast clippers that were in use then but I'm no expert on such things.

 

Dave

[Tricky]

I think I will probably end up with the tree-trunk load as that would seem the most likely load and within its weight loading. 

However, thoughts are turning to a small  diorama of the Rolls-Royce chassis being loaded. As I’m away from my books at the moment would anyone be able to furnish a photo of the picture from Midland Wagons? The only thing is on my choice of rolling stock I’m a bit limited to what Slaters offer as underframe parts ie standard stuff. It doesn’t look like they do anything other than standard 8 spoke wagon wheels for instance. I had thought about a flat carriage wagon with period load but no mansell wheels and long springs. Or long buffers. 

[airnimal]

Tricky, is this the picture you want ?  I had the books to hand building my Midland trolley wagon.

As for a load my good friend Peter has made me a casting from his local foundry. When the wagon is finished I will chain it down according to regulations.

[Tricky]

56 minutes ago, airnimal said:

Tricky, is this the picture you want ?  I had the books to hand building my Midland trolley wagon.

As for a load my good friend Peter has made me a casting from his local foundry. When the wagon is finished I will chain it down according to regulations.

Yes, that’s the one, thank you. 

[Compound2632]

Dave Harris of the Midland Railway Study Centre very kindly took a moment out from his preparations for recant to send Richard and myself a scan of the Study Centre's copy of C&W Drg. 1113, which I have been studying intently with a view to copy-cat building one in 4 mm/ft scale. There are a couple of peculiarities:

• The solebars, which on most Midland wagons are of 11" x 4½" timber, are on this wagon only 4⅛" thick. Combined with the 11" x 4" x ⅜" thick L-shaped steel angle on the outside, this gives the standard 4½" thickness. The only advantage of this that I can see is that this enables the standard headstock to be used, with the standard bolt/bracket piece of ironwork on the outside of the solebar end. However, the headstock is not the standard 7'6" long but 7'8"! - although I suppose it could still be drilled out using the standard jig.
• Where a standard underframe has two transverse middle bearers, 6'1" x 11" x 4½", this wagon has six. The centre four are spaced at 3'7" (face-to-face); the outer pair at each end are at 2'9" face-to-face, equispaced either side of the axle centreline. This means that a non-standard axleguard has to be used, with the vertical part of the wing irons at 2'6" rather than 3'0" centres, in order to fit between the transverse timbers. Having had another look at the photos in Midland Wagons, this is apparent - but, I think, only when you know its there.

This drawing was originally prepared for the 8 ton double bolster wagons of Lots 383 and 442 (1896/98) with the bolsters at 15 ft spacing but has been marked up in red with changes for the 12 ton girder wagons of Lot 639 (1906) - showing the bolsters closer together and additional stanchions in pockets on the wagon side. Other changes include heavier-section axleguards for the W4 oil axleboxes, stronger bearing and buffing springs, and "12 ton" wheels specified - these changes are all indicated by notes in red ink, not by re-drawing the components.

 

Whoever said "don't measure off the drawing, rely on the marked dimensions" needs to check this drawing out. The transverse timbers either side of the axleguards are marked as being at a face-to-face spacing of 2'9" at one end and 2'7" at the other. The former has to be the correct dimension, otherwise everything doesn't add up to 25'0" - this is confirmed by running a ruler over the drawing.

[MarshLane]

Hi Tricky,

Nice development. I am following along ... is this aimed at being just a standalone wagon on in a display case then .. or the start of bigger plans!

 

Rich