1938 Tube Stock on the Central Line; Fiction or fact?

[lttractiongroup]

Evening All,

I'll start off by saying that as far as I am currently aware, '38TS did not operate for any reasonable amount of time on the Central Line, if at all. There may have been one-off exceptional movements that I'm unaware of, but they add little to answering this question.

A few people have suggested to me that '38TS was used on the Ongar branch shuttle early on. Whilst this would be excellent news, I imagine that they're probably thinking of the similar-looking '35TS that's known to have worked the shuttle.

Here is one suggestion that '38TS was used, citing a specific unit number; tube-history.dslack.uk/rolling-stock/1938.php#use-differant-lines
Is anyone able to confirm whether this is false or true?

If anyone believes that they have any sort of conclusive proof that '38TS operated on the Central Line for any length of time, please post here or get in touch with me please; I would be very keen to read/see/hear/watch it.

- Dan
--
Secretary, London Transport Traction Group
www.lttractiongroup.co.uk
lttgsecretary@gmail.com

 

Also posted here; https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31710/1938-tube-stock-central-fiction

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Brian Hardy's Undergrund Train File: Tube Stock 1933-1959 records 10177 - 012265 - 11177 being loaned to the Central Line from the Northern Line for Epping-Ongar, deputising for 1935 Tube Stock 10011 - 11011 which was being used for regenerative braking testing. The body of the text gives the very precise date of 16 November 1957 for the start of the loan, but a photo of a 1938 Tube Stock train in North Weald (and the leading motor car definitely is 1938 and not 1935 Tube Stock) says the photograph was taken on 19 July 1957 (the main text says the line wasn't electrified until November 1957).

 

10011 - 11011 returned to the Central Line in 1960 (where it acquired a Standard Stock trailer, as had the other two 1935 Tube Stock units), so I suppose this is when the 1938 Tube Stock loan ended.

 

I think (but am not entirely sure) that 1938 Tube Stock trailers were used with 1960 Tube Stock motor cars on Hainault-Woodford, but I only remember Standard Stock trailers.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Jeremy C

[Arun Sharma]

!938 stock trailers 4929 [012392], 4927 [012229] and 4921 [012366] were converted to run with 1960 stock between Feb 76 and Apr 78 though four trailers of converted pre-1938 standard stock still existed in 1980 when they were refurbished. These survived until scrapped in Aug 83. 

In fact, given that various physical bits of lines on the system have changed their line names from time to time, it is still true to say that the 1938 TS is the only stock to have operated on all the named tube and surface lines - with the exception of the W&C line. 

Remember for example that part of the Northern City line physically became part of the Victoria Line and the bit north of Wembley Park to Stanmore was originally built as part of the Metropolitan Line. The lines from Acton Town to Hounslow West and Uxbridge were also originally part of the [Metropolitan] District Railway.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Arun Sharma
Addnl info

[Ray H]

And the line to Stanmore was part of the Bakerloo line for a fair while.

 

My understanding was that 1935/38 tube stock was technically out of gauge between Bank & Liverpool Street unless the positive shoe beams were removed.

[4630]

12 hours ago, lttractiongroup said:

If anyone believes that they have any sort of conclusive proof that '38TS operated on the Central Line for any length of time, please post here or get in touch with me please; I would be very keen to read/see/hear/watch it.

- Dan
--
Secretary, London Transport Traction Group
www.lttractiongroup.co.uk
lttgsecretary@gmail.com

 

Also posted here; https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/31710/1938-tube-stock-central-fiction

 

If you’re able to, get hold of a copy of Underground News - July 2020 published by the London Underground Railway Society.

 

There’s an interesting article about 60 Years of the 1960 Tube Stock that includes details and history of the ‘38TS conversions that were done for use with ‘60TS on the Hainault-Woodford shuttle.  Also included are several photos of the stock in service and on Hainault depot.  

[Metr0Land]

14 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

I think (but am not entirely sure) that 1938 Tube Stock trailers were used with 1960 Tube Stock motor cars on Hainault-Woodford, but I only remember Standard Stock trailers.

 

Both 1938 and Standard cars were used

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1960_Stock

[lttractiongroup]

Curious - I thought I'd bookmarked the thread.

 

Needless to say that thanks to the sources named here and on the other forum I'm now under no doubt that a '38TS unit was employed on the Ongar branch shuttle. 

 

From my group's perspective that's very useful information!

[Gwiwer]

 

On 10/08/2020 at 22:52, Jeremy C said:

I think (but am not entirely sure) that 1938 Tube Stock trailers were used with 1960 Tube Stock motor cars on Hainault-Woodford, but I only remember Standard Stock trailers.

On 11/08/2020 at 12:54, Metr0Land said:

 

Both 1938 and Standard cars were used

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1960_Stock

 

But not at the same time.

The 1960-stock motor cars had pairs of Standard stock trailers between them initially. Those were replaced by the single 1938 stock trailer.

 

The OP can rest assured that 1938 tube stock has operated on the Central Line for a significant period of time albeit only three trailer cars and largely (not exclusively) confined to the Hainault - Woodford shuttle.  I believe one set was also used on the Ongar service at times on a duty which included an early morning Woodford - Ongar through train.  

 

Operation of 1938 stock on the Ongar line has already been mentioned.  

[jim.snowdon]

On 11 August 2020 at 08:54, Ray H said:

And the line to Stanmore was part of the Bakerloo line for a fair while.

 

My understanding was that 1935/38 tube stock was technically out of gauge between Bank & Liverpool Street unless the positive shoe beams were removed.

I believe the actual problem was more to do with the ability of the positive shoegear to cope with the higher position of the conductor rail in the original Central London Railway tunnels.

 

Jim

[Lord of Narnia]

That was my understanding too. The smaller dimensions of the original Central London Railway tunnels caused the positive rail to be slightly higher up on the tunnel ring. 

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, Lord of Narnia said:

That was my understanding too. The smaller dimensions of the original Central London Railway tunnels caused the positive rail to be slightly higher up on the tunnel ring. 

1.5" higher, if I remember correctly. Sufficient to cause the later types of radial arm shoegear difficulty.

 

Jim

[keefer]

Confirmed on the 3rd/4th rail pages at CLAG:

http://www.clag.org.uk/3rd-4th.html#Collector-shoes

 

"[Picture of an] Axlebox-mounted collector shoe assembly on Central Line 1992 stock. Most collector shoes act by gravity, but this type of hangar is non-standard, owing to the need to cater for a non-standard positive conductor rail height on the central section of the Central Line between White City and Liverpool Street......Because of the way the Central London Railway tunnels were enlarged, they are no longer quite round, and for clearance reasons the outside positive rail is of a special shape and placed 1.5" higher than usual."

[jim.snowdon]

17 hours ago, keefer said:

Confirmed on the 3rd/4th rail pages at CLAG:

http://www.clag.org.uk/3rd-4th.html#Collector-shoes

 

"[Picture of an] Axlebox-mounted collector shoe assembly on Central Line 1992 stock. Most collector shoes act by gravity, but this type of hangar is non-standard, owing to the need to cater for a non-standard positive conductor rail height on the central section of the Central Line between White City and Liverpool Street......Because of the way the Central London Railway tunnels were enlarged, they are no longer quite round, and for clearance reasons the outside positive rail is of a special shape and placed 1.5" higher than usual."

Although back in the late 1980s, when I ran a measuring shoegear over the Central Line, the +/- 1/8" declared tolerance turned out to be wildly inaccurate. Reality was rather more +/- 1.5".

 

Jim