Small Parcels Vans & Trains

[br2975]

On the other hand............. not everything was 'backward'

.

The "Tyne - Severn BRUTE Circuit Working" introduced around 1969, involved the overhaul of 100 GUV and 20 BG vans, and the repainting (in all blue) of the BG vans.

All were authorised for 90mph running..

 

In addition 2,000 BRUTE trollies were earmarked for the system..

 

A GUV was able to load 19 BRUTE trollies and a CCT 13 BRUTE trollies..

 

The floors of the vans were marked out indicating the position of each BRUTE trolley, information was also marked internally at cant rail level..

 

Each van was given a reference e.g. G6 or G7 which started at Sunderland, and each space internally was allotted to a specific BRUTE trolley with dedicated destinations..

 

The BG vans were intended to carry "unBRUTEable" traffic, e.g. large or unusually shaped parcels..

All loading was governed by the BLI (BRUTE Loading Instructions).

 

There was a dependence on 'mail order' traffic, apparent from some of the starting points of the services, 

 

The longest working was the 18:30 Sunderland (South Dock - Brian Mills) - Bristol, which ran as follows

18:30  Sunderland (South Dock - Brian Mills). made up as follows 2x GUV Sunderland-Cardiff, 3x GUV Sunderland - Bristol, also 2x GUV en route Birmingham and 2x GUV & 1x BG Sunderland - Worcester to be detached at Sheffield

18:50-19:15 Sunderland Central

20:25-20:40 Newcastle Central - attach front, 3x BG ex Newcastle Forth for Bristol, Gloucester and Cardiff; attach rear 3x BG for Doncaster x1, Sheffield x2.

20:55-21:05 Durham - load 10x BRUTEs

21:32-21:47 Darlington

22:26-22:44 York

23:23-23:38 Doncaster - detach BG ex Newcastle

00:14-00:35 Sheffield - detach 8x vans for Birmingham, Worcester and Didcot (for Paddington), add 1x BG ex Leeds Parcels Concentration Depot also BCK & SO    ex Leeds

03:25-03:50 Gloucester - detach 5xvans for Gloucester x1, Cardiff x3, Bristol  x1 going forward at 08:05 ex Gloucester.

04:52 Bristol arrive. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by br2975

[Covkid]

On 26/08/2020 at 19:02, TheSignalEngineer said:

When I worked around Curzon St in the late 1960s 12T vans were used on the Christmas specials.

 

The GPO at Sutton Park used 12T vans in the lead up to Christmas, it's purpose I believe was to handle international traffic for the Royal Mail. There was a service every afternoon to Curzon St which was as 3G20 4G20 or 6G20 depending on traffic and this was solid class 25 until they were usurped by class 31.

 

In the morning the idea "little train" was 1G04 from New St which was a newspaper van detached from a Euston-Wolverhampton newspaper train.  The van was often 85534 a convert from a GUV, fitted with gangways and a toilet, as well as wrapping tables and much improved florescent lighting. 1G04 was always an ETH fitted loco, mostly a 45/1 but latterly a 31/4, and ran to the slow line platform 1 at Walsall where WH Smith staff met and unloaded it. The loco and van then ran back to Curzon St via Sutton Park as 5G17, the loco then going to Oxley or Vauxhall for coaching stock.

 

Not my shot but here is a 31 on some BGs getting to work 3G20 to Curzon St via Ryecroft Jn, Walsall and Aston

 

 

Another shot of the Sutton Park goods shed, with waht looks like 6M26 Earles-Handsworth cemenet train passing

 

 

 Probably a more useful shot for you is of this class 25 propelling it's short train into the loop ready to run round and shunt around to the Royal Mail area. The train appears to be a pair of 12T vacuum braked vanfits sandwiching a VAB or VBB "supervan" using it's vacuum through pipe to maintain the brake continuity. I assume this was prior to the reorganisation of freight train working arrangements where 3 brake fitted wagons needed to carry a tail lamp. 

 

http://loco-park.blogspot.com/2007/10/

[62613]

On 12/08/2020 at 18:10, The Johnster said:

Trolleys would always be parked with the brake on (even when it didn't work) parallel to the edge of the platform for obvious reasons, and the folk memory of a bad accident at Tamworth in the early days when an express hit a mail trolley that had fallen off a platform into it's path.

 

 

Are you thinking of the accident at Wellingborough?

[The Johnster]

Clearly I am.  The Tamworth accident involved routing an up Irish Mail incorrectly on to the up platform road, which then ran through the platform road with the loco derailed to be correctly routed through trap points into a stub siding which it overran, crashing into the river Tame.  It was Wellingborough where the mail trolley ran away and derailed a train, resulting in BoT recommendation that platforms should be level or slope away from the running lines, and that 'automatic' brakes set 'on' by spring loading and released when the handle was pulled down against spring pressure, be fitted to trolleys.  My understanding, possibly not correct, is that the practice of parking trolleys parallel to the platform edge and not at right angles to it was formalised at this time, but had been commonly practice before this as good sense.

 

I am getting increasingly worried about becoming a confused old duffer; I'm already pretty much an old duffer...  Both accidents are featured in Tom Rolt's 'Red For Danger', which i read many years ago but made the mistake of lending to someone. 

[Philou]

Oooh .... I think I have a copy of 'Red for Danger' somewhere - but alas, you didn't lend your copy to me........

[The Johnster]

No, Philipe, it definitely wasn't you.  It was a person who went away to university taking the book with him who I then lost contact with.  Last I heard, over 40 years ago, he was in San Diego, Cal., doing rather well for himself, the unmitigated book stealing swine...

Edited September 3, 2020 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

Nice photos of Sutton Park. The large GPO building - built in the war as the distribution centre for US forces mail - was threatened with demolition despite its listed status - no alternative use - though I believe part of the site is still used by the PO. The goods shed seen in the photos above has been turned into a luxury home!

 

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It was Wellingborough where the mail trolley ran away and derailed a train, resulting in BoT recommendation that platforms should be level or slope away from the running lines, and that 'automatic' brakes set 'on' by spring loading and released when the handle was pulled down against spring pressure, be fitted to trolleys.  My understanding, possibly not correct, is that the practice of parking trolleys parallel to the platform edge and not at right angles to it was formalised at this time, but had been commonly practice before this as good sense.

 

The irony at Wellingborough in 1898 was that the down main platform was the only one that had not already been raised. In his report, Lt.-Col. Yorke makes the suggestions that platforms be made level or sloping away from the rails and that trolleys be fitted with a brake that would be on except when the trolley was pushed or pulled. The BoT usually could only cajole and persuade unless it had the power to make regulations on the subject under the power given to it by an Act of Parliament; did it have such power in this case? As so often happens, the accident evidently spawned uninformed suggestions for improved safety; Yorke dismisses the idea that fitting the engine with a cow-catcher would have made any difference.

[rob D2]

Going back to your original idea of Aylesbury , there was a whole thread on aylesbury freight in 70s and 80s.

 

The vans were loaded in sidings behind the station , or slightly further down near the futuristic new office building, they were kept sometimes north of the station near the old goods shed.Used a mix of stock from BGs through SPVs to some of the older designs 

 

 

[Binky]

5 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Going back to your original idea of Aylesbury , there was a whole thread on aylesbury freight in 70s and 80s.

 

The vans were loaded in sidings behind the station , or slightly further down near the futuristic new office building, they were kept sometimes north of the station near the old goods shed.Used a mix of stock from BGs through SPVs to some of the older designs 

 

 

 

Some great info, Rob. Thanks. I'll have to find that thread.

It's good to see the 70s cars in that shot. Interesting to see the white door insides on the PMV too. I'd never given much thought to what colour they were inside but I guess this was done to maximise light.

[TheSignalEngineer]

21 minutes ago, Binky said:

Interesting to see the white door insides on the PMV too

IIRC the insides of vans and guards compartments were usually painted pale grey in that period.

[roythebus]

Remember pre about 1973 when ASLEF permitted guards to ride in the back cab of a loco, there would always have to be a brake van somewhere in the train for the guard.

[The Johnster]

Guards were placed in the rear cabs of locos from the ‘single manning agreement’ between BR, ASLEF, and the NUR in 1969, initially on Freightliner trains but very rapidly on any fully fitted Class 4 or 6 train.
 

The agreement’s provisions can be briefly summarised as follows: 

 

1) Guard to ride in rear cab of loco in secondman’s seat of that cab. 
 

2) Secondman (later called ‘Driver’s Assistant’ or ‘Assistant Driver’) required for any ‘special’ working not in the WTT, any with steam heating, and on all light engine/ebv.

 

3) Single manning driver must have ‘physical needs break’ of minimum 20 minutes between 5th and 7th hour of duty, off loco.  
 

4) Single manning driver not to exceed 8 hours duty including signing on, reading notices, and pnb. 
 

5) Guard to act as Secondman on light engine leaving depot or signing on point for a distance of up to 15 miles to pick up train, or any distance to home depot after working train.  Rides in front cab in Secondman’s seat. 
 

Where conditions 3) and 4) could not be met, a secondman had to be provided and a guard could not ‘act secondman’ in these instances; it had to be someone from the footplate line of promotion.  Single manning was used on all classes of trains except 9 IIRC; I’m sure Stationmaster will be able to tell us.  At any rate I cannot recall ever seeing a single manned class 9 in my own career as a freight guard at Canton, 1970-78. 
 

The agreement was resented by drivers and secondmen during the first few years; redundancies as result of Beeching cuts and dieselisation had been severe, and the promotion prospects of secondmen were very and drivers in the lower links were very badly affected.  As a new intake guard in 1970 I was all too aware of this; the attitude was that we were ‘back cab jockeys’, incompetent in ‘proper’ railway work.  We had to ‘prove’ ourselves; most of us did but there were one or two who were a bit of a liability that did the rest of us ni favours at all.  The railway had been decimated by Beeching, management were constantly looking for ways to cut costs, which were out of control, and morale was very low. 
 

Single manning had of course been around for years in multiple unit and diesel shunting duties.  Things initially went the other way when HSTs were introduced, with two drivers required where 125mph running was permitted.  

Edited September 4, 2020 by The Johnster

[The Stationmaster]

Right let's sort it out properly and get it accurate for once.

 

1.  Brakevans were dispensed with on fully fitted freight and parcels trains from May 1969 from which time the Guard rode in the rear cab of the loco (until DOO was introduced).

2. There was no new Manning Agreement in 1969.  

3. The only relevant agreement in that year was doing away with brakevans on fully fitted trains and allowing the Guard to travel in the rear cab,  The original proposal for the Guard to travel in the leading cab was rejected outright by ASLE&F.  Accordingly this Agreement did not modify the terms of the 1965 Manning Agreement or of the 1968 P&E Stage 1 Agreement.  

 

4. The only other change had been the August 1968 agreement under P&E Stage 1 which allowed a Guard, or Senior Railman etc passed in protection Rules to act as Secondman on a light loco movement of less than 5 miles (other than between depots)  and a Guard to act as Secondman up to a maximum of 15 miles at the start of a turn or of unlimited mileage at any other time during a turn of duty.  That was in some respects an updating of the fairly long standing half mile limit for a Guard or Shunter acting as Secondman on certain movements. 

 

4. Single manning of Driving turns was restricted to 8 hours in the 1957 Manning Agreement, the 1965 Manning agreement allowed it to be increased above 8 hours in certain circumstances subject to individual negotiation (an example was Swansea Drivers working out & back to Paddington which took the turn over 8 hours on loco hauled trains).  

However a 1919 Agreement at the National Wages Board officially restricted footplate turns of duty to a maximum of 9 hours but this was amended in the late 1940s to allow longer turns by agreement in special circumstances.  There were however 3 instances on the WR where a Driver could be rostered up to 12 hours but in all three cases the circumstances were a little unusual although one was station or yard pilot engine turns which could be single manned.

 

4. Physical Needs Breaks (PNBs) for single manned driving turns was, I think,  mentioned in the 1957 Manning Agreement and are definitely included (and I think were amplified in detail)  at the standard 30 minutes allowance between the third and fifth hours in the 1965 Manning agreement.  The break remained at 30 minutes until various train operating companies brought in their own variations (e.g. in the case of the operator I worked for it was referred to as 'a break from the driving cab environment'  (of unspecified duration but we undertook to try to achieve a minimum of 20 minutes).

 

I don't doubt that some footplate staff didn't like the appearance of Guards in the back cab but the critical thing was that it made no difference at all to footplate Manning Agreements and Guards had of course already been officially given a wider role in the leading cab the previous year.  ASLE&F were successful in 1969 in fending off a situation in which they considered (probably rightly) put the Secondman's job under threat.   However  things changed far more radically in later years when first (and in reality only marginally) the 'Trainman' concept was introduced and then went even further when full Driver Only Operation was applied to almost all freight trains from the mid 1980s onwards.

[TheSignalEngineer]

This goes back just before the blue era but the vans were still around a few years later.

 

Cravens Class 129 plus Fruit D and an LMS CCT (Parkside PC33 for the kit)

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcov3771.htm

[johnw1]

There was the sidings on the Down side of Leicester Midland station (between the station and the Royal Mail building) that in the 1970's seemed to play host to mainly 4 wheeled NPCCS.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/6989175771/

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by johnw1

[Oldddudders]

Although probably not really on the OP's radar, I recall a quite interesting working at East Croydon. An MLV - Motor Luggage Van - would come empty from Victoria Eastern, where it had no doubt just arrived off an afternoon boat train, and would enter the Down Sidings, picking up a couple of loaded vans and returning to Victoria via Crystal Palace, Tulse Hill and Herne Hill. The MLV was used because it had a limited capability off the juice rail, as the sidings were not electrified.

 

The vans were mainly used for Post Office traffic, I think, which would have been loaded there. The fact that the local hostelry, backing on to the loading bay by the sidings, was called the Porter and Sorter, did give a clue as to its customary clientele.  

[Binky]

On 06/09/2020 at 13:41, Oldddudders said:

Although probably not really on the OP's radar, I recall a quite interesting working at East Croydon. An MLV - Motor Luggage Van - would come empty from Victoria Eastern, where it had no doubt just arrived off an afternoon boat train, and would enter the Down Sidings, picking up a couple of loaded vans and returning to Victoria via Crystal Palace, Tulse Hill and Herne Hill. The MLV was used because it had a limited capability off the juice rail, as the sidings were not electrified.

 

The vans were mainly used for Post Office traffic, I think, which would have been loaded there. The fact that the local hostelry, backing on to the loading bay by the sidings, was called the Porter and Sorter, did give a clue as to its customary clientele.  

 

Still a very interesting bit of info. I can see myself being tempted into buying an MLV too!

[w124bob]

Not strictly a parcels working, but there was a regular once a week Red Bank to Longsight working, as the importance of Red Bank declined this was often a single vehicle move. The train was routed via Ashton junction, Denton and Stockport(run round) and onto the southern end of Longsight. On one occasion I was asked, due problems Stockport,  to propel the  the single GUV from Heaton Norris straight onto LO ! 

In steam days the working was Red Bank to York, booked for a 9f I believe .

[johnw1]

On 25/08/2020 at 19:36, Binky said:

Some great info here. Thanks everyone.

 

So far I've got myself 3x SPVs, a Vanfit and an ex-SR CCT. Can anyone suggest other small parcels stock that wouldn't look out of place on a blue era layout?

If you really want to be adventures you could try one of these

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/5890749766/

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 minutes ago, johnw1 said:

If you really want to be adventures you could try one of these

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/5890749766/

 

 

That's a nice one John, quite late to be in traffic use I would think?

[Binky]

1 hour ago, johnw1 said:

If you really want to be adventures you could try one of these

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/5890749766/

 

 

 

I do like those 6 wheelers, I believe they are only available as a brass kit?

[Fat Controller]

12 hours ago, Binky said:

 

I do like those 6 wheelers, I believe they are only available as a brass kit?

There's a brass kit available from someone who posts on RMWeb. I think it's macgeordie.

 

[Flood]

14 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

That's a nice one John, quite late to be in traffic use I would think?

There were still six in service at the start of 1978. 70670 was last one, noted withdrawn in June 1978.

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, Flood said:

There were still six in service at the start of 1978. 70670 was last one, noted withdrawn in June 1978.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brerbz

 

The BR blue livery appears to consistently not have any writing about dimensions, which was standard feature of 4 wheel NPCCS. Attractive vans I've been surprised they haven't been produced as a RTR or an easy build kit (plastic!)

 

Paul

[MidlandRed]

On 5 September 2020 at 10:48, TheSignalEngineer said:

This goes back just before the blue era but the vans were still around a few years later.

 

Cravens Class 129 plus Fruit D and an LMS CCT (Parkside PC33 for the kit)

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcov3771.htm

 

Interesting photo - I didn't realise these had different coloured cab rooves than the rest of the roof - unlike the WR and BRCW white ones, these look like they're coloured as the bodywork.  Not sure if its the perspective of the picture but the body/underframe at the front looks higher off the bogie than the rear - I was wondering whether it was possibly caused by weight distribution or the car accelerating/starting and the back bogie driving? Maybe it's just the photo!! 

 

Presumably these cars cars and the WR Birmingham area ones operated a network of services - I was wondering whether, as with the passenger DMU dieselisation (see class 116 thread) there was any publicity or records of the network operated? As the WR had four Birmingham area cars, presumably it was quite a broad operation? 

Edited September 9, 2020 by MidlandRed