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An MR goods train originating from Liverpool - but where from?


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Trying to develop realistic operating rosters for traffic into East Lancashire originating in the Liverpool area. Whilst I know MR northbound express/passenger trains started from Liverpool Exchange, up to Blackburn over L&Y rails and thence northwards to Hellifield and the Settle and Carlisle, what if there was a MR goods train originating in Liverpool and following the same route? Though I'm not actually sure that they did as L&Y seemed to run goods trains beyond Blackburn, to Accrington, Burnley and beyond onto Midland metals into Skipton.

 

Doing the research, mainly Disused Stations, Huskisson seems a probable option, built especially by the Midland to tap into Docks traffic and connected to its allies in the area through the Cheshire Lines. Disused Stations: "In the last years of the nineteenth century the MR alone was operating goods trains from Huskisson to Carlisle, Stourton, Sheffield, Washwood Heath, Nottingham and Rowsley." It was busy into the 1960s but it does seem a bit cramped if there was that much traffic.

 

Then there is Sandon and Canada Docks where the Midland also invested but looking at the maps, the L&Y marshalling yards at Aintree have ample space but do not connect to the CLC unless you leave the yards and head north where there is a crossover from the CLC to the L&Y after Aintree yards - for the Midland to head to Blackburn over L&Y metals - but not the other way.

 

So, in essence, would Huskisson be the prime candidate for originating northbound, especially East Lancs, MR goods traffic or has anyone got more affirmative information?

 

This may help understand where I am going with this Liverpool area lines

 

Thanks for your inputs.

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I think you're reading the map wrong.  Liverpool is very confusing to non locals.

 

If you look at Huskisson Goods, that's the Midland goods shed for the North Docks, and Walton is where the Walton Triangle is. That was a massive marshalling yard, there was another one at the South end of the line at Halewood.

 

From there the MR trains would travel by CLC to their destination. Either North via Aintree or East and to the rest of the country via Warrington.

 

It wouldn't have to travel by L&Y. If any goods did then they would be put in L&Y trains. These railways were in competition.

 

 

 

Jason

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Posted (edited)

Ah, I will have to revisit, I have been scouring the NLS maps of the time and could only see the Aintree yards. But don't forget, competition or not, Exchange was the L&Y Liverpool station from whence MR Scotch expresses via the Settle and Carlisle were timetabled from running all the way over L&Y metals to Hellifield.

 

Thx

Edited by MR Chuffer
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The relationship between the MR & LYR was a good deal more sophisticated than is implied above. TNA at Kew has a good many working timetables for the CLC and the Midland Railway Centre might be able to help also.

Cheers

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15 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

the Walton Triangle is. That was a massive marshalling yard

Hi Jason, looking at the 25" 1892-1914 map on the NLS site, I just can't see any marshalling yards at or near the Walton Triangle. Are you referring to the L&Y Aintree site a little north of this?

 

When you say Halewood, do you mean at nearby Garston which I identified, but it is in altogether the wrong direction for heading north.

 

The CLC lines north would only get you as far as Southport, and am guessing this was commuter traffic in the main, which leaves 2 options, north on the L&NW - no!, and the L&YR, which the MR was already using to get to Scotland, and probably less so, to get to its goods facilities at Blackburn. This was an important town at the time which was served by both the L&NW and L&YR but the MR could only access using running rights, which were over the L&Y, hence the conundrum, how did the Midland get goods trains out of Liverpool and from where onto the L&Y line to Lostock Hall and beyond.

 

As @PenrithBeacon said, railway politics were very nuanced at the time. There is the term co-opetition that probably best describes the MR/LYR relationship.

Edited by MR Chuffer
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I'm no expert on Liverpool railways at all, but looking at Railway Junction Diagrams (the Liverpool sheet is dated 1909), from south to north, there was a CLC goods station at Brunswick (branched off the line into Liverpool Central at Egerton Street Junc), a Midland Railway goods station at Sandon Dock (accessed from the CLC Huskisson Goods branch from Fazakerley North and South Juncs) and a Midland Railway branch to Alexandra Dock Goods, which came off the CLC at Fazakerley Junc (a few yards north of Fazakerley North Junc, just to be confusing).  All of these connected with the Mersey Docks lines which served everything from Herculaneum up to Hornby Dock.  I recall when going round the Bury Transport Museum a couple of years ago, there was a very interesting display on the mezzanine level about the traffics carried by the railways in that area, and imported raw cotton from Liverpool to the mills was a very significant part of it.

Regards,

Tom, Staplehurst, Kent

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I suspect that the Midland, like most railways, would have preferred to keep the goods traffic on its own system. As well as the MR proper, that would include jointly owned lines (CLC), but might not go as far as exercising running powers (statutory or not) if they had to forego a share of the revenue. Passenger services are different: you don’t get much custom if the journey takes too long, so payment for use of “foreign” tracks would be tolerated.

 

It is impossible to deduce exactly what happened 100+ years ago by looking at an O/S map. It is marginally better looking at RCH maps, but they do not show if running powers were actually exercised for all services. The only way to find out for sure is from photos and archive records, e.g. appendices to the WTT, traffic noticed, receipts, correspondence, etc.

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Best bet, if you can find one, is a working time table. The Midland certainly ran goods trains into Liverpool, and the chances are they went from there over the CLC. The question is, where did the Midland exchange traffic with the L&Y?  My guess is Philips Park, which the Midland could reach via Glazebrook, Stockport, and Ashburys. Bit roundabout, but the old companies didn't care about that, certainly not for goods. 

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8 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

imported raw cotton from Liverpool to the mills was a very significant part of it.

- Which I'm angling for the (my) Midland to capture as it had goods facilities in Blackburn, a town ringed by the L&Y and at that time  one of the most significant mill towns, certainly with daily direct passenger services to London, Euston and St Pancras. (Nowadays, you're lucky to get any sort of on-time service to Manchester...!)

 

@RegularityI take your point, not all running rights are equal vis a vis passenger versus goods traffic.

 

@Poggy1165 Phillips Park still requires a traipse north over L&Y metals.

 

To get to the MR Colne-Skipton line of my interest avoiding L&Y metals would involve going round by Leeds and Bradford which is a bit of a stretch. So having gone as far into this as I can for now and as its a model railway and I have ample Midland and L&Y goods stock, I shall apply Rule 1 - a daily MR goods bringing the cotton in over the L&Y from Huskisson via Ormskirk and Lostock Hall, until more information comes to light.

 

Thank you all.

 

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I'm pretty sure, but will have to check my sources, that it was Huskisson for northbound traffic and Brunswick for southbound traffic. The Midland had rather extensive running powers over the L&Y from Liverpool and Manchester via Blackburn to Hellifield; the CLC doesn't really come into it for the Midland's Lancashire - Scotland traffic.

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1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm pretty sure, but will have to check my sources, that it was Huskisson for northbound traffic and Brunswick for southbound traffic. The Midland had rather extensive running powers over the L&Y from Liverpool and Manchester via Blackburn to Hellifield; the CLC doesn't really come into it for the Midland's Lancashire - Scotland traffic.

Yes, that was what was at the back of my mind, then as @Regularity said, not all running rights are equal vis a vis passenger versus goods traffic.

 

There must have been a heck of a lot of MR traffic going north bypassing Manchester and as I quoted earlier from Disused Stations: "In the last years of the nineteenth century the MR alone was operating goods trains from Huskisson to Carlisle, Stourton, Sheffield, Washwood Heath, Nottingham and Rowsley." It also states that it was busy into the 1960s but it does seem a bit cramped if there was that much traffic, so, if it did originate from Huskisson - and other dockside locations, was it marshalled in another yard before onward journey?

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm pretty sure, but will have to check my sources, that it was Huskisson for northbound traffic and Brunswick for southbound traffic. The Midland had rather extensive running powers over the L&Y from Liverpool and Manchester via Blackburn to Hellifield; the CLC doesn't really come into it for the Midland's Lancashire - Scotland traffic.

And the LYR had running powers over the S&C for freight (and into Hellifield for passenger traffic; it had an engine shed at Hellifield). I would doubt very much that the Midland would route it's Scottish freight via Manchester (too busy already and neither the LNW/GCR would be impressed) or by Ambergate (the great way round).

Cheers

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10 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:
3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The Midland had rather extensive running powers over the L&Y from Liverpool and Manchester via Blackburn to Hellifield; the CLC doesn't really come into it for the Midland's Lancashire - Scotland traffic.

And the LYR had running powers over the S&C for freight (and into Hellifield for passenger traffic; it had an engine shed at Hellifield). I would doubt very much that the Midland would route it's Scottish freight via Manchester (too busy already and neither the LNW/GCR would be impressed) or by Ambergate (the great way round).

That’s what we need to know.

 

Any photos in books?

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The L&Y didn't exercise its running powers north from Hellifield whereas the Midland vigorously exploited its powers south via Blackburn to Liverpool and Manchester. The two companies didn't tread on each other's toes very much - there were not many routes where they were in direct competition - but the Midland did rather take over the L&Y's long-distance traffic, both passenger and goods, northbound in Lancashire. The L&Y would no doubt have been very happy with the toll revenue and was of course continuing to Scotch route traffic originating from L&Y goods stations via the LNWR and Caledonian, preserving the balance of power between its two giant neighbours. Not to be forgotten that a section of the WCML in Lancashire was its property!

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8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The L&Y didn't exercise its running powers north from Hellifield whereas the Midland vigorously exploited its powers south via Blackburn to Liverpool and Manchester.

I'm reading in my recently acquired "The Skipton and Colne Railway and the Barnoldswick Branch" (too expensive...!) that the Midland granted the L&Y rights over it Colne - Skipton line in 1876 to connect to the Scotch expresses at Skipton coincidental with the opening of the Settle and Carlisle line. And of course, these connections were transferred to Hellifield after the L&Y completed its line there from Blackburn beyond Chatburn, but the L&Y continued to use the Colne -Skipton line for passenger, expresses and goods.

 

There are WTT examples and excursion papers from November 1881 that show both companies running passenger and expresses originating from Bradford and Leeds, and additionally the MR running goods from there and from Carnforth, and the reverse workings, but there is no detail beyond Colne (to Liverpool/Manchester?).

 

It seems unlikely all MR goods trains originating from Leeds, Bradford and Carnforth would terminate at Colne, a town of 20,000 at the time and which doesn't appear to have extensive facilities for goods traffic marshalling and handover.

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10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The L&Y didn't exercise its running powers north from Hellifield ...

Are you sure? My understanding is that the LYR ran goods trains from Manchester and Liverpool which combined at Hellifield in the extensive LYR owned sidings there.

There is a standard question in railway trivia quizzes 'what railway served Carlisle but wasn't on either the joint passenger committee or the joint goods committee? The answer is the LYR which didn't run passenger trains, but whose interest in the goods committee was looked after by the Midland. Another example of the close cooperation between the two railway companies as was the lowering of the tracks through Sough tunnel to accommodate the Midland's Pullman coaches for it's Manchester-Carlisle services.

Cheers

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I've never seen anything to suggest that the L&Y worked goods trains north from Hellifield with its own engines, unlike the Midland working its own trains south thereof. I've been re-reading Ahrons' chapters on the L&Y and Midland in Locomotive and Train Working in the Latter Part of the Nineteenth Century. He discusses the mutual running powers in the L&Y chapter, commenting that with the Midland working the Manchester Victoria - Blackburn - Hellifield portion of Scotch expresses and also the through St Pancras - Manchester Victoria - Bolton - Blackburn trains, the Midland "took practically the whole of the Manchester-Blackburn express trains out of the L&Y's hands". These were the trains that had to include a L&Y second class carriage. This Midland take-over was from 1888. But in return, with the opening of the Skipton & Ilkley line in 1889, the L&Y obtained running powers and operated a Manchester-Ilkley through service.

 

This is of course all passenger trains, so doesn't help with the OP's question.

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I've been looking through Ahrons and have finally tracked down the statement: "At the same time [as the Midland took over the Scotch passenger service between Hellifield and Liverpool and Manchester, 1888] the Scotch goods trains from Carlisle were worked through by Midland goods engines to Ancoats (Manchester) via Philip's Park Junction, and also to Liverpool." Unfortunately he doesn't state what Liverpool station!

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9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Unfortunately he doesn't state what Liverpool station!

Drat!! Thanks for persevering with this. At least the principle is established and I'm only trying to model the arrival from Liverpool (wherever..).

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11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been looking through Ahrons and have finally tracked down the statement: "At the same time [as the Midland took over the Scotch passenger service between Hellifield and Liverpool and Manchester, 1888] the Scotch goods trains from Carlisle were worked through by Midland goods engines to Ancoats (Manchester) via Philip's Park Junction, and also to Liverpool." Unfortunately he doesn't state what Liverpool station!

The Liverpool station would have been Central.

The Midland had  huge goods station at Ancoats so it isn't a surprise that they ran trains to Carlisle from there. The Midland's passenger service to Carlisle started at Victoria and was routed Bolton-Blackburn-Hellifield and onwards via S&C.

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I have just remembered that about my person I have the 1896 L&Y classification of goods trains book. (A volume that I keep meaning to hand over to the L&Y Archivist as it really should be with their archives.)

 

Anyway, it does mention Midland trains over the L&Y at some length. (And indeed other companies trains, but that's beside the point.) On the specific question of Liverpool traffic northwards we have:

 

3-50 am M (Mondays excepted?) Carlisle to Liverpool Conveys through traffic for Blackburn and Lostock Hall and exchange thereat. Inspector Evans (Hellifield) must wire to Mr Heaton (Clitheroe) and to Loco Department Lower Darwen, when this train requires a bank engine and the Clitheroe No 1 pilot must bank it. Stops at Aintree Junction to leave Liverpool L&Y traffic.  The departure of this train must be wired from Hellifield to Inspector Gill (Aintree Sorting Sidings) together with the number of wagons it has on for Liverpool (L&Y). Lostock Hall must also wire to Inspector Gill (Aintree Sorting Sidings) the time the train passes there.

 

1-40 am Hellifield to Huskisson. Conveys through traffic and traffic for Lostock Hall and exchange thereat. Stops when required to leave cattle traffic at Clitheroe and Whalley. Detaches Liverpool fish at Ormskirk to go forward by first passenger train. Stops at Aintree Junction to leave Liverpool (L&Y) traffic; and to attach, when required, traffic ex Silcock's Mill for Midland local stations. Runs on Sunday and stops at Blackburn for traffic purposes. The departure of this train must be wired daily from Hellifield to Inspector Gill (Aintree Sorting Sidings) together with the number of wagons it has on for Liverpool (L&Y). Lostock Hall must also wire to Inspector Gill (Aintree Sorting Sidings) the time the train passes. Stops at Blackburn on TuO to detach traffic.

 

7-45 pm Huskisson to Carlisle. Conveys traffic for beyond Hellifield only. Stops at Aintree Junction to attach loaded traffic for Midland line only. Not to exceed 32 wagons as far as Lostock Hall.  Attaches Scotch (sic) empties at Blackburn in addition to loaded traffic on Saturdays.

 

11-30 pm Huskisson to Carlisle. Conveys traffic for beyond Hellifield only. Stops at Aintree Junction to detach empties for Liverpool (L&Y) and to attach traffic for Midland line. Starts 11-35 pm on Saturdays.

 

That's all she wrote, but it does give us a good idea as to routing, which was not by the CLC. In passing, I should mention that Midland trains to Carlisle etc. from Ancoats were more frequent than the Liverpool trains. 

Edited by Poggy1165
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27 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The Liverpool station would have been Central.

 

Central (CLC) faces quite the wrong way. It was of course the terminus for the Liverpool portions of St Pancras expresses.

 

The Scotch passenger trains started from Exchange (L&Y), joining the Manchester Victoria (L&Y) portion at Blackburn. The Midland stationed 4-4-0s at the L&Y's Sandhills (Bank Hall) shed for the purpose - in 1888, brand new 1808 Class engines Nos. 1814-1818 but these were evidently though too good for shuttling between Liverpool and Blackburn so were replaced by old 1312 Class engines of 1876, which remained on this work until the Great Wat This is all in Ahrons.

 

Huskisson (CLC) still seems to me the most likely starting point for the Midland goods trains, with trip workings from the two Midland dock stations, Sandon Dock and Alexandra Dock, joining the L&Y at Aintree. 

 

What's not clear is where goods engines were shedded. Perhaps there weren't any, just Carlisle engines working through. The Midland never seems to have had a large allocation of 0-6-0s in the Liverpool district.

 

@Poggy1165 posted before me, confirming Huskisson via Aintree. Bingo!

Edited by Compound2632
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@Poggy1165 - brilliant, thanks, a huge leap forward in my understanding and confirming what I was always thinking might be the case. I can now finish my fictional WTT in confidence.

 

27 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The Liverpool station would have been Central

As @Compound2632 says, and confirmed by my 1910 Bradshaw's, L&Y's Exchange was the starting point for the Midland's northbound/Scotch passenger traffic, it seems to have been  a fearsome rival that knew how to get what it wanted.

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