B-Units, possibly a daft question!

[daveyb]

Are there controls in a B-Unit?

 

I'm guessing yes as it may need to be moved in a yard or depot situation but possibly only a basic set-up?  Most of them seem to have a window next to the central end door and I'd guess it was for these 1/2 cabs.

 

There was a similar system in one end of 1962 stock on the London Underground so they could split trains and run a 1.5 set though I'm fairly sure it was only used in the depot.

 

Sorry if it seem a daft question...

[pH]

Yes, some B-units have controls - usually only for 'hostlers' to move them around engine facilities. Here's a discussion about this:

 

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/153565.aspx

[long island jack]

Haysi railroad had a b unit to move coal hoppers

 

[sulzer27jd]

Have a Google search for the Haysi Railroad. It's an Appalachian coal railroad that used an ex Clinchfield F7B unit as its main power at one point.

 

As I'm typing this I see a photo has just  been posted of it. The other end actually had a little cab with a window.

 

John

[russ p]

Going slightly off topic APT power cars have basic controls to move around depots. 

In the US the controls are known as hostler controls

[webbcompound]

Some of the pre-war ATSF B units had extra windows put infor use by a driver

[Dublodad]

1962 tube stock had cabs at both ends of both 3 and 4 car units. Those with shunting controls were 1949 tube stock UNDM's - Uncoupling Non Driving Motor Cars. These supplemented the 1938 tube stock when the train formations were changed, if I remember correctly on reforming the 9 Car Northern Line units

[mdvle]

The Rock Island had 2 B units - AB6 - built specifically to look like a B unit so the train looked good, but actually had full cab and lights to take a small train split off at a mid point.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMC_AB6

[dibber25]

British Columbia railway had M-420B units that were MLW M420s without a cab for radio-controlled mid-train use. They had a hostler's cab - a cubicle - at one end. (CJL)

[russ p]

23 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

British Columbia railway had M-420B units that were MLW M420s without a cab for radio-controlled mid-train use. They had a hostler's cab - a cubicle - at one end. (CJL)

 

Were they the only 420 Bs Chris?  They must have been quite late for B units . Not really sure why they died out as although not as versatile they must be quite a bit cheaper. 

 

When I first worked for DRS we seriously looked at making some class 20 B units to make a triple 3000hp unit . Shame it didn't happen 

[mdvle]

20 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Were they the only 420 Bs Chris?  They must have been quite late for B units . Not really sure why they died out as although not as versatile they must be quite a bit cheaper. 

 

The cost, particularly over 20 years, I am guessing isn't significant given that the design already has the space for a cab - and you lose serious flexibility.

 

As things currently stand if there is some sort of failure that means a unit can no longer lead you can simply swap with another unit - not possible if the other unit(s) are B units (and now consider, unlike the UK, how far away a replacement or maintenance person may be in many parts of North America).

 

Or you don't have to worry about juggling the allocation of A and B units at a origin point to ensure you always have something to lead a train while still having enough horsepower on each train, and again the issue of failures making some A units unavailable.

[pH]

36 minutes ago, russ p said:

Were they the only 420 Bs Chris?  They must have been quite late for B units .

The last B units built in North America were GP60Bs for ATSF in 1991, at least 14 years after those BCR units. Some were still in service in 2017, at least.

Edited August 12, 2020 by pH

[dibber25]

I think they were the only M-420B units. They were delivered in 1975 and there were only 6 or 8 of them. They were used as mid-train units The reference I have says they were used with the railway's radio-control cars but it also says that the M420B hostlers cab contained a radio control receiver and I have a feeling they enabled BCR to dispose of its radio-control cars which were conversions of much older F7 or F9 B-units. (CJL)

 

[russ p]

9 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

The cost, particularly over 20 years, I am guessing isn't significant given that the design already has the space for a cab - and you lose serious flexibility.

 

As things currently stand if there is some sort of failure that means a unit can no longer lead you can simply swap with another unit - not possible if the other unit(s) are B units (and now consider, unlike the UK, how far away a replacement or maintenance person may be in many parts of North America).

 

Or you don't have to worry about juggling the allocation of A and B units at a origin point to ensure you always have something to lead a train while still having enough horsepower on each train, and again the issue of failures making some A units unavailable.

 

If you have two units and a couple of B units the operational reasons for not having  B units is covered 

When we looked at the 20s back in the 90s it was going to  be a lot cheaper than rebuilding a 20 as a 20/3 

And that was before stuff like GSMR etc

I seem to remember we were going to put additional fuel tanks in where the cab would be to match the capacity of the side tanks.

 

[dave1905]

After the UP/MP merger a lot of the older SD40-2's, particularly the ex-MP engines were converted to B units, primarily by removing the seats in the cabs and relettering them.  

[daveyb]

So it's as I guessed, in the main. It would be really awkward having a loco you couldn't move stuck in the way, so if only enough to shunt it then the controls were a sensible and likely addition. 

 

Once you moved into hood or cowl units and the need for a uniform, streamline shape is overcome by the need for efficiency and flexibility, the need for Bs is gone.

[AndrewC]

After changes to the laws around cabs and fittings, CP removed controls from a large number of SD40-2 units as well. These were easily recognisable as they also blanked out the cab windows. 

 

To answer the OP, CP also operated at least 1 F9B using hostler controls as part of a pair of switchers in Calgary back in the early 80s. Others like 4457 were rebuilt in to Robot cars. 

[Johann Marsbar]

20 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

To answer the OP, CP also operated at least 1 F9B using hostler controls as part of a pair of switchers in Calgary back in the early 80s. Others like 4457 were rebuilt in to Robot cars. 

 

I seem to have managed to photograph part of one of the two F7Bm's (6800/1) they used whilst passing through Calgary on VIA Rail, back in 1989.......

 

Taken through the train window whilst the train was moving, so not a brilliant shot.  I had lined up to photograph 1520 and it was too late to get a shot of the B unit having realised that I hadn't seen anything like that elsewhere on the journey in CP colours. Didn't have any clue what I was going to see on that trip either! (first trip to Canada, so not aware of things like the "Trackside Guide")

 

[AndrewC]

16 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

I seem to have managed to photograph part of one of the two F7Bm's (6800/1) they used whilst passing through Calgary on VIA Rail, back in 1989.......

 

Taken through the train window whilst the train was moving, so not a brilliant shot.  I had lined up to photograph 1520 and it was too late to get a shot of the B unit having realised that I hadn't seen anything like that elsewhere on the journey in CP colours. Didn't have any clue what I was going to see on that trip either! (first trip to Canada, so not aware of things like the "Trackside Guide")

 

One of the last Via trains through Calgary as the service was rerouted through Edmonton (blech) on CN lines in Jan 1990. 

[Johann Marsbar]

13 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

One of the last Via trains through Calgary as the service was rerouted through Edmonton (blech) on CN lines in Jan 1990. 

 

I had a Canadian Railpass in July 1989 and ended up travelling Toronto-Vancouver via the CP route in both directions, albeit in seating accomodation rather than a sleeper. Rather glad I did, given it was rerouted, as you say, fairly soon afterwards, though the train was very heavilly loaded both ways when I travelled.

Managed Vancouver-Toronto via the CN Edmonton route in April 1991 on another trip, but that was done in a sleeper (Sherwood Manor) in a very empty train. My Father and I had the rear dome car to ourselves for the whole trip!

[Mike_Walker]

Many if not all of the EMD F Series B units were equipped with "hostler controls" mounted inside next to one of the access doors.

Additionally, many of the F3B and F7Bs so equipped had a hinged "porthole" next the controls which could be opened to look out. This can be seen as the centre window of the B unit here which is a F7B rebuilt to resemble a F3B.

 

Here it can be seen in its more usual position as the last porthole next to the door.

 

This VIA ex-CN F9B appears not to have hostler controls, at least not the opening window although one or both might have been removed when the unit was upgraded.

 

 

In addition to E and F series B units, EMD constructed some "Cow & Calf" pairings of switchers designated the TR (Transfer) series such as this somewhat battered Belt Railway of Chicago TR4B. 

These combinations are similar to BR's Class 13s and should not be confused with the engineless "Slugs" created by some railroads from standard switchers.

 

 

As mentioned the British Columbia Railway received eight custom-built M420Bs from Montreal Locomotive Works (MLW) in 1975 numbered 681-688. These did indeed have remote control gear allowing them to work in the mid-train position without a separate control car, hence the RCL (Remote Control Locomotive) prefix. They also had hostler controls inside the door where the cab would have been.

 

 

Other "modern" B units were supplied to both Burlington Northern and Santa Fe before the BNSF merger. Burlington Northern received 101 B30-7AB units (4000-4100) from General Electric in 1982.

 

Santa Fe had the last B units built, 23 GP60Bs from EMD in 1991 as part of its "Super Fleet" numbered 325 to 347.

 

Finally, a handful of second-generation SD units were rebuilt without cabs following wreck damage. An example is BNSF 7505 , a rebuilt SD45. Note that in addition to removing the cab, the dynamic brakes were moved to a position where the cab/nose used to be. This helped increase their efficiency by moving them away from the hot prime-mover. This was also the reason the d/b's were moved in the SD50s and subsequent EMD models.

 

This former Norfolk Southern SD40 was converted to a B unit by CP by removing the seats and control stand and plating over the windows. Several units, including CP's own SD40-2s were modified in this way to save upgrading the cabs to meet changing regulations.

 

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Mike

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Mike_Walker

[Jim Martin]

As well as various railroads turning A units into B units by removing/rebuilding/isolating the cab, the Chicago & North-Western bought some surplus E8 and E9 B units from Amtrak in the early 70s and converted them into A units for operation on their Chicago suburban service by adding a home-brewed cab. Google "Crandall cab" for links, pics and some modelling articles.

 

Jim

[daveyb]

I remember the CP SD40-2 that were used as B units with blanked cabs. There were a few kicking around Medicine Hat on the Lethbridge run in 99-02. Some of them have since been changed back to full control again (then refurbished into SD30 eco).

 

Do the cow and calf units count as A & B units? Slugs have no engine so no controls are necessary.

 

I must admit that I was initially talking about the the carboxy B units built that way rather than the hood units that were converted. I'm not sure I see the point of a cowl B unit...

[dibber25]

On 12/08/2020 at 21:59, dibber25 said:

I think they were the only M-420B units. They were delivered in 1975 and there were only 6 or 8 of them. They were used as mid-train units The reference I have says they were used with the railway's radio-control cars but it also says that the M420B hostlers cab contained a radio control receiver and I have a feeling they enabled BCR to dispose of its radio-control cars which were conversions of much older F7 or F9 B-units. (CJL)

 

I know it's a bit late for a follow-up on this topic but I just found this picture. I think it would be 1981 when I was taken round North Vancouver yard in a pick-up truck by one of the truly great guys who ran British Columbia Railway in those days. It really shows the hostler's cab quite well and does make one wonder whether there was any worthwhile cost saving when it's in the same place as a regular cab. CN disposed of M-420s to other, smaller, railways but I don't know if M-420Bs were any use to anyone else. (CJL)

Edited October 25, 2020 by dibber25

[pH]

2 hours ago, dibber25 said:

CN disposed of M-420s to other, smaller, railways but I don't know if M-420Bs were any use to anyone else.

Three of the M420Bs went to OmniTRAX and were used on railways in the Canadian Prairie provinces:
 

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,23151

Edited October 25, 2020 by pH
Clarification