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BR 'Mixed Traffic' steam loco question - Lined vs Unlined Black


Rob Haigh
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Apologies if this is a silly/basic question...

 

Why were some mixed traffic locomotives in the BR steam era painted in lined black while others of the same class were unlined (e.g. Black 5s)?

 

Was it just because certain works just didn't bother with the lining in general?

Or most/all works stopped bothering after a certain time?

Were certain locos more regularly used on one traffic duty (either freight or passenger) so painted accordingly?

 

I've wondered for a time, and couldn't find any previous threads.

 

Thanks!

Lined_vs_Unlined_Black.png

Edited by Rob Haigh
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It was just an economy thing as the end of steam approached from the early 1960s. From the earlier days of BR, all locos classed as mixed traffic, including some which had once been top link passenger engines Midland Compounds spring to mind) were painted lined black wherever built or overhauled, but the system fell into disuse.

 

The same thing happened to green engines, many of those were turned out without lining too.

Edited by LMS2968
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You would also see locos in unlined black in the first few years after nationalisation.  A look at photos of the period shows Crewe turning out some Black 5s in plain black with BR numbers sometimes with blank tenders into 1950.

 

Simon

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2 hours ago, 65179 said:

You would also see locos in unlined black in the first few years after nationalisation.  A look at photos of the period shows Crewe turning out some Black 5s in plain black with BR numbers sometimes with blank tenders into 1950.

 

Simon

 

That's because only express passenger locomotives were meant to get lined black at that point. Prior to 1950 they hadn't decided the livery and the works were still painting them in pre 1948 colours. Crewe adopted lined black for express and everything else would get unlined black.

 

Eight Duchesses received LNWR lined black until they decided to paint them blue. The rest were mainly still in LMS livery with a handful in experimental blue.

 

Details here.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class#Pre-1951

 

 

 

Jason

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It's actually all a bit more complicated than that. The new liveries were well established by 1950.  Sticking with Black Fives because I don't have detail for anything else. They were being turned out with full mixed traffic livery with the then new BR emblem in 1949 e.g. 44907 in August 1949. I'd therefore assumed that oddities like 44930 and 44938 coming out of works after light intermediate overhauls in late 1949/early 1950 were in plain black apart from numbers purely  because full repaints were only done at a heavy general overhaul. However, 44905 came out of Crewe after a heavy general in late April 1950 in the same plain black.

 

As ever model according to dated photographs as reality is always messy!

 

Simon

 

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BR issued an edict in December 1963 To all works overhauling steam locos that all locos needed re painting were to be painted in plain black for those classes that had been previously lined out and the same applied to green locos ( Jubilees and Britannia’s, Ivatt class 2s et) that were previously lined out. Some works were a little slow in following the new instruction and St Rollox works was still lining out locos into early 1964. 45312 was seen ex works from Cowlairs on 22-March 1964.
A few Jubilees received the plain green and all the Brittanias although if you scrapped the green paint of the previous lining was revealed underneath. The green used was also a slightly different colour being more of a Khaki green. Only 1 BR standard 5 was painted plain black. Some locos went into works lined out and were not repainted so retained lining when they left works, a cleaning being all that was required. Some Black 5s retained lining until the end of steam in 1968.

Edited by Norton961
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The type of repair would dictate whether a loco was repainted, a “casual” definitely not, an “ intermediate” which did not require the boiler to be taken out of the frames ( and therefore the boiler cladding not being removed) probably not. An intermediate would involve the wheels and motion dismantled  and the wheels out of the frames but the boiler would remain in situ. When the revised tender coat of arms appeared in 1957 some locos still had the early emblem into 1964 so 73025 was still running with this, indicating it had been through works without being repainted. At least one rebuilt Scot withdrawn in 1963 was still carrying the early coat of arms at withdrawel.

 

 

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70000 was black when first released, LSL did a nod to this when released after its last overhaul.

 


closest we’ll ever get to a mainline 9f, I wish they’d left it like this and just add a BR1F (with its extra water capacity) from its owner’s 9f.... doesnt look too shabby...



GCR did a nod to plain green brits too..

 


 

people wax lyrical about 1960-1968, but I doubt we will see mainline steam days like 2008-2014 again either...

Edited by adb968008
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14 hours ago, Norton961 said:

 if you scrapped the green paint of the previous lining was revealed underneath.

 

I seem to recall that in the late 60's Black 5's were painted plain black but the lining was still underneath the black paint and using a coin with a rough edge would remove the paint and bring the lining back , whichever coin was used - I cannot remember now - was the term given by enthusiasts to doing it

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11 hours ago, Norton961 said:

When the revised tender coat of arms appeared in 1957 some locos still had the early emblem into 1964 so 73025 was still running with this, indicating it had been through works without being repainted. At least one rebuilt Scot withdrawn in 1963 was still carrying the early coat of arms at withdrawel.

 

Examples of the early emblem were around later than 1964. Here’s one withdrawn in 1967:
 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/80572914@N06/7475357282/in/photolist-cozaho


I’m sure there was a topic on late survivals of the first emblem, but I can’t find it.

 

(Edit - found it:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131735-early-crests-in-the-60s/ )

 

Edited by pH
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I was commenting on another thread only yesterday about how there seemed to be no rationality to pre 1966 diesel liveries, but that they were interesting and often helped to improve the look of the loco as well.  You could I think say something similar for steam locos even before economy liveries are taken into account.  The standard BR steam liveries as establshed after mid 1949 were black for freight and shunting locks, those power classified xF, lined black for mixed traffic locos, those power classified xMT, and lined green for passenger locos, those classified xP.  

 

So, Britannias and Clans, power classified 7MT and 6MT respectively were turned out in mixed traffic lined black livery, weren't they?  Oh, hang on a minute, they weren't; Britannia debuted in freight black but was fairly quickly repainted in lined green passenger livery before it went into traffic and that livery was applied to the rest of those classes.  They other BR standard locos all came out in the correct mixed traffic lined black except of course for the 9Fs which were correctly unlined black with one exception.  

 

Ok, but it all made sense with the other locos, didn't it, they followed the rules.  Oh, hang on a minute, not all of them did.  The LMS 4P compounds have already been mentioned as having mixed traffic lined black livery, but this seems to have been applied across the board to all 4-4-0s despite their clearly passengerial status, even Schools class.  Small 4-coupled passenger tank locos  should have had lined green passenger livery as well, but were turned out across the board in lined black.  The GER E4 was a mixed traffic design but BR painted it as a freight loco.  The WR painted an 8750, 3F, in lined black to look smart on the lawn at Paddington, and such clearly passenger locos as Brighton Atlantics had lined black mixed traffic livery.  I have never seen anywhere or seen referred to an instruction to paint 4 coupled passenger locos in mixed traffic livery; they should surely have been lined green.  

 

In 1956, a stone was cast into the already ripple disturbed waters of BR's understanding of freight/shunting, mixed traffic, and passenger locos and what liveries they should carry; regions were given greater autonomy in choices of livery.  They all responded in their own ways; the LMR took the opportunity of painting some Princess and Duchess pacifics in yellow lined crimson lake, basically the locos' original livery and very smart.  The ER and NER painted some mixed traffic V2s in lined green passenger livery, and the Southern started painting it's Schools' in lined green passenger livery.  The WR went a bit bonkers, painting any loco that might be used on a passenger train, which was most of its mixed traffic fleet, in lined green, even types that had never carried lined livery in GW days.  They kept to the 'plan' in one regard, though; 14xx got lined green but 58xx didn't.  Similarly 54/64xx, passenger locos by virtue of being auto fitted, had lined green livery while the non-auto fitted 74xx were freight black for branch pickups.  In fact I wouldn't swear to any loco being painted lined black on the WR after 1956, including BR standards; 73xxx 5MT, 75xxx 4MT, 78xxx 2MT, 82xxx 3MT.  

 

There were from 1956 occasions of mixed traffic WR locos being painted in economy unlined green, ex GW ones looking much like they had under the GW, or unlined black.  In 1960 Swindon turned out Evening Star in full lined green passenger livery, and this was by any lights a pure freight loco, but this was sanctioned and excusable.

 

But pre-1956, broadly speaking, the liveries were applied correctly, with the exceptions noted, applying to Britannias, and Clans which should have been given mixed traffic lined black, and 4 coupled passenger locos which should have been given lined passenger green.  There would also be an argument for Bulleid pacifcs receiving mixed traffic lined black, as had not Mr Bulleid claimed that this is what they were in order to get them built during wartime?

 

Personally, I reckon a spam can would have looked drop dead stunning in plain black, as did the A4s and streamlined Coronations.  There is something sort of evil about a black streamlined locomotive.

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16 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 There would also be an argument for Bulleid pacifcs receiving mixed traffic lined black, as had not Mr Bulleid claimed that this is what they were in order to get them built during wartime?

You took the words right off my keyboard!

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33 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I was commenting on another thread only yesterday about how there seemed to be no rationality to pre 1966 diesel liveries, but that they were interesting and often helped to improve the look of the loco as well.  You could I think say something similar for steam locos even before economy liveries are taken into account.  The standard BR steam liveries as establshed after mid 1949 were black for freight and shunting locks, those power classified xF, lined black for mixed traffic locos, those power classified xMT, and lined green for passenger locos, those classified xP.  

 

So, Britannias and Clans, power classified 7MT and 6MT respectively were turned out in mixed traffic lined black livery, weren't they?  Oh, hang on a minute, they weren't; Britannia debuted in freight black but was fairly quickly repainted in lined green passenger livery before it went into traffic and that livery was applied to the rest of those classes.  They other BR standard locos all came out in the correct mixed traffic lined black except of course for the 9Fs which were correctly unlined black with one exception.  

 

Ok, but it all made sense with the other locos, didn't it, they followed the rules.  Oh, hang on a minute, not all of them did.  The LMS 4P compounds have already been mentioned as having mixed traffic lined black livery, but this seems to have been applied across the board to all 4-4-0s despite their clearly passengerial status, even Schools class.  Small 4-coupled passenger tank locos  should have had lined green passenger livery as well, but were turned out across the board in lined black.  The GER E4 was a mixed traffic design but BR painted it as a freight loco.  The WR painted an 8750, 3F, in lined black to look smart on the lawn at Paddington, and such clearly passenger locos as Brighton Atlantics had lined black mixed traffic livery.  I have never seen anywhere or seen referred to an instruction to paint 4 coupled passenger locos in mixed traffic livery; they should surely have been lined green.  

 

In 1956, a stone was cast into the already ripple disturbed waters of BR's understanding of freight/shunting, mixed traffic, and passenger locos and what liveries they should carry; regions were given greater autonomy in choices of livery.  They all responded in their own ways; the LMR took the opportunity of painting some Princess and Duchess pacifics in yellow lined crimson lake, basically the locos' original livery and very smart.  The ER and NER painted some mixed traffic V2s in lined green passenger livery, and the Southern started painting it's Schools' in lined green passenger livery.  The WR went a bit bonkers, painting any loco that might be used on a passenger train, which was most of its mixed traffic fleet, in lined green, even types that had never carried lined livery in GW days.  They kept to the 'plan' in one regard, though; 14xx got lined green but 58xx didn't.  Similarly 54/64xx, passenger locos by virtue of being auto fitted, had lined green livery while the non-auto fitted 74xx were freight black for branch pickups.  In fact I wouldn't swear to any loco being painted lined black on the WR after 1956, including BR standards; 73xxx 5MT, 75xxx 4MT, 78xxx 2MT, 82xxx 3MT.  

 

There were from 1956 occasions of mixed traffic WR locos being painted in economy unlined green, ex GW ones looking much like they had under the GW, or unlined black.  In 1960 Swindon turned out Evening Star in full lined green passenger livery, and this was by any lights a pure freight loco, but this was sanctioned and excusable.

 

But pre-1956, broadly speaking, the liveries were applied correctly, with the exceptions noted, applying to Britannias, and Clans which should have been given mixed traffic lined black, and 4 coupled passenger locos which should have been given lined passenger green.  There would also be an argument for Bulleid pacifcs receiving mixed traffic lined black, as had not Mr Bulleid claimed that this is what they were in order to get them built during wartime?

 

Personally, I reckon a spam can would have looked drop dead stunning in plain black, as did the A4s and streamlined Coronations.  There is something sort of evil about a black streamlined locomotive.

I thought it was much simpler than this. Pre-1957, anything from 5P downwards was black, lined. 6P and 7P were lined green and, until sanity was restored, 8P were blue. Freight locomotives were simply black, unlined. 

 

Jim

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But I've never seen this instruction, or it referred to, anywhere.  It does seem to hold, though, with the likes of 6-coupled B12s or Saints appearing in lined black livery.  But not Stars, and they were rated 5P; to ever rule there's more exceptions than rule.  5P King Arthurs, same power class as Schools, got lined green.

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15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

In 1956, a stone was cast into the already ripple disturbed waters of BR's understanding of freight/shunting, mixed traffic, and passenger locos and what liveries they should carry; regions were given greater autonomy in choices of livery.  They all responded in their own ways; the LMR took the opportunity of painting some Princess and Duchess pacifics in yellow lined crimson lake, basically the locos' original livery and very smart.  

 

Personally, I reckon a spam can would have looked drop dead stunning in plain black, as did the A4s and streamlined Coronations.  There is something sort of evil about a black streamlined locomotive.

 

I think that for the Duchesses, this was the first time they had been painted red, apart from those that were originally red streamliners. These built unstreamlined were turned out in the final LMS black lined straw livery. For my part, I don't think crimson lake really suits a very large locomotive, with such large areas unrelieved by lining. It may just be what the eye is accustomed to but I think that the larger LMS express passenger engines - 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s - look at their most handsome in green. Though I agree about sinister black streamliners!

 

The LMS had, I think, already stopped painting most 4-4-0s red at the 1928 livery change, with the exception of the compounds. The 2Ps were always lined black. In BR days the Compounds suffered the revenge of Crewe but at least none was ever painted in GWR colours!

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4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think that for the Duchesses, this was the first time they had been painted red, apart from those that were originally red streamliners. These built unstreamlined were turned out in the final LMS black lined straw livery. For my part, I don't think crimson lake really suits a very large locomotive, with such large areas unrelieved by lining. It may just be what the eye is accustomed to but I think that the larger LMS express passenger engines - 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s - look at their most handsome in green. Though I agree about sinister black streamliners!

 

The LMS had, I think, already stopped painting most 4-4-0s red at the 1928 livery change, with the exception of the compounds. The 2Ps were always lined black. In BR days the Compounds suffered the revenge of Crewe but at least none was ever painted in GWR colours!

IIRC, the LMS painting instruction in 1928 said everything class 5 and below was to be black; only passenger locos of class 5X and higher were to remain in red.

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13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

But I've never seen this instruction, or it referred to, anywhere.  It does seem to hold, though, with the likes of 6-coupled B12s or Saints appearing in lined black livery.  But not Stars, and they were rated 5P; to ever rule there's more exceptions than rule.  5P King Arthurs, same power class as Schools, got lined green.

The B12s were BR class 4P3F in 1955. That doesn't explain the the remaining B17/1s though (those with the 180lb. boilers), which were IIRC green in class 4

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The original liveries decided upon in 1949 were as per the attached, which is a memo from RA Riddles to OVS Bulleid, dated 31 Jan 1949. It should answer some of the points raised on here.

 

Best wishes

 

Simon

490131 Riddles to Bulleid livery letter page 1.jpg

490131_Riddles_to_Bulleid_livery_letter_page_2.jpg

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18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

In 1960 Swindon turned out Evening Star in full lined green passenger livery, and this was by any lights a pure freight loco, but this was sanctioned and excusable.

Evening Star (and a couple of other 9Fs) went to the S&D and did many turns as a passenger locomotive, so lined green turned out to be appropriate in the end.  The 9Fs were almost too good for speed and haulage capacity by all accounts on this route :-). As it didn't need assistance (double heading) it saved cost too - but that may have not been welcome 'upstairs' on a condemned route...

I wonder if it's livery (as well as not being of GWR design) was a reason this celebrity loco was posted out to Bath MPD?

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