BR 'Mixed Traffic' steam loco question - Lined vs Unlined Black

[ikks]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think that for the Duchesses, this was the first time they had been painted red, apart from those that were originally red streamliners. These built unstreamlined were turned out in the final LMS black lined straw livery. For my part, I don't think crimson lake really suits a very large locomotive, with such large areas unrelieved by lining. It may just be what the eye is accustomed to but I think that the larger LMS express passenger engines - 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s - look at their most handsome in green. Though I agree about sinister black streamliners!

 

The LMS had, I think, already stopped painting most 4-4-0s red at the 1928 livery change, with the exception of the compounds. The 2Ps were always lined black. In BR days the Compounds suffered the revenge of Crewe but at least none was ever painted in GWR colours!

Maybe I'm reading this wrong. apologies if I am but 6230-6234 were turned out in unstreamlined form in LMS red (Crimson Lake)with gilt numbering and lining.

Rgds...........Mike

[LMS2968]

And chrome plated shiny bits!

[PenrithBeacon]

8 hours ago, slilley said:

The original liveries decided upon in 1949 were as per the attached, which is a memo from RA Riddles to OVS Bulleid, dated 31 Jan 1949. It should answer some of the points raised on here.

 

Best wishes

 

Simon

I too found this document at TNA, and it's worth noting that this was an intention, it wasn't fully implemented after 1951.

 

I haven't found the location, if they have survived, of any of the panels 'Mr Ivatt' was preparing although I was told at the NRM that GWS Didcot has some panels of unknown provenance.

 

Do you know that all TNA documents are Crown Copyright and shouldn't be published without written permission?

Edited August 16, 2020 by PenrithBeacon

[PenrithBeacon]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

...

The LMS had, I think, already stopped painting most 4-4-0s red at the 1928 livery change, with the exception of the compounds. The 2Ps were always lined black. In BR days the Compounds suffered the revenge of Crewe but at least none was ever painted in GWR colours!

Only the Compounds of all 4-4-0 types were crimson lake after 1928, but there were a number of repaints into plain black during WW2. The last engine in LMS crimson lake was 40934 until September 1951!

[PenrithBeacon]

On 15/08/2020 at 19:08, The Johnster said:

... Britannia debuted in freight black but was fairly quickly repainted in lined green passenger livery before it went into traffic...

 

... I have never seen anywhere or seen referred to an instruction to paint 4 coupled passenger locos in mixed traffic livery; they should surely have been lined green.  

 

...

But pre-1956, broadly speaking, the liveries were applied correctly, with the exceptions noted, applying to Britannias, and Clans which should have been given mixed traffic lined black, and 4 coupled passenger locos which should have been given lined passenger green ...

I do think that you should be wary of some of these statements not a great idea to shoot from the handbag!

 

'Britannia' was exhibited in black primer it was never the intention that it should be in service like that. It was an exhibition standard black primer, but it was a primer coat.

 

By 1951 the Compounds were considered as mixed traffic designs and both the MR and LMS used them as such until they were replaced in this role by the Horwich Crab.  Pre WW1 the MR used the type on fitted freights as did the LMS later.

 

Essentially lined black was for the less important types with the even less important getting plain black. There is no other way of describing it!

 

4-4-0s were considered to be obsolete by 1951, significant perhaps, but obsolete. Hence the lined black liveries.

[The Johnster]

11 hours ago, slilley said:

The original liveries decided upon in 1949 were as per the attached, which is a memo from RA Riddles to OVS Bulleid, dated 31 Jan 1949. It should answer some of the points raised on here.

 

Best wishes

 

Simon

First time I've seen this written down, and it does answer my point about mixed traffic spamcans.  But it raises as many questions as it answers; the electric locos on the Southern were not painted blue and the ER's Manchester-Sheffield 1954 Goddesses weren't, either, though one was in it's later years.   I would guess that similar letters were sent to the other regions' CME, including those of the 13th and 18th instant, and it would be interesting to check the locos delineated by Riddles for each region; presumably those that were painted in the relevant liveries 1949-56.  Riddles was clearly interested in liveries and the appearance of a fleet under common nationalised ownership and the 'corporate branding' aspect, though it wouldn't have been called that back then.  It is perhaps a shame that completely new liveries were not tried on steam locos, but an austerity economy was not the ideal situation to play around in in this way, though some were tried during 1948, to be declared unmitigated failures by and large; wasn't there a purple A4?

 

What I call anomalies are probably differences of opinion between me and Mr. Riddles, and must be viewed in the knowledge that he was the man in charge and I wasn't even born for another 3 years.  But to class a Schools as not an express passenger loco when they were still very much in that role on the Hastings line, and to class a Star as an express passenger loco long after they had all been cascaded to secondary work by Castles seems illogical, Captain.  

 

On the WR, auto fitted locos were engaged almost completely in passenger work, and with trailers painted in express passenger livery at that until Mr Riddles put a stop to such shennanigans.  So, 14xx, 54xx, and 64xx should have been given lined black livery.  Some 14xx were but AFAIK no 54xx or 64xx was; they were painted in unlined black, and a good few 14xx were as well.  Trix once made a 56xx in lined black livery, and if this was correct is another odd choice, as the usual livery for them from mid '48 was unlined black; they were frequently used as passenger locos in South Wales and the West Midlands.  Large and small prairies appeared apparently indiscriminately in plain and lined black, and small 4575 prairies fitted with auto gear in 1953 were unlined black despite the passenger associations.  

 

Riddles states that the unicycling lion available from this date is a 'one size fits all' 28" square, but this was not realised in practice,  On the WR and probably elsewhere different sizes could be seen on some classes irrespectively, notably the Prairies and the 56xx.  The position tended to wander around a bit as well, especially on small tank locos like Adams Radials, Beattie Wells and Scottish lined mixed traffic pugs.  The smaller diesel shunting engines had to have the crest on the cab side, as did 10800, because the usual position was covered by louvres.

 

Railways are like that; almost any attempt to establish a standard livery that applies across the board is inevitably confounded by the different sizes and shapes of the locos, especially if lining is involved, and it has to be said that Riddles' liveries sat well on most of the locos it was applied to.  We should be grateful to him; I'm sure there were those on the board who would have preferred plain black for everything, and Riddles had every excuse to implement this.  He got it right, except perhaps the crimson and cream coaches which are a bit gaudy for my taste.  The non-gangwayed crimson looked fine, as did the 'electric' green and the freight liveries.  

 

I never realised that cylinders wore clothing, fashion conscious little divils they are to be sure.

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I do think that you should be wary of some of these statements not a great idea to shoot from the handbag!

Shoot from the handbag is a magnificent phrase, David, thank you for brightening an otherwise dull and rather pointless evening...

 

I'd been previously unaware of Riddles' 31/1/49 instructions to the regions' CME, assuming he wrote to them all and not just Bulleid.  There are livery anomalies, there always are, but the painting of what I consider passenger locos makes more sense in this light.  But I would have been less keen than Riddles, if it was him, to state that there was going to be a 'Mixed Traffic' livery of lined LNW style black, a thing I have grown up believing.  A more correct description would have been to describe express passenger locos as in lined green (8P were blue at this time but that didn't last long), freight and shunting locos were plain black, and Mixed Traffic and ordinary passenger train locos were to be in lined black.

 

No wonder the WR had a bit of a scattergun approach!

Edited August 16, 2020 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, ikks said:

Maybe I'm reading this wrong. apologies if I am but 6230-6234 were turned out in unstreamlined form in LMS red (Crimson Lake)with gilt numbering and lining.

 

Quite right. My mistake.

 

45 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Mixed Traffic and ordinary passenger train locos were to be in lined black.

 

But any vacuum or Westinghouse-fitted locomotive was potentially a mixed traffic locomotive, just as any express passenger locomotive could in principle be put on express goods work. (A goods train, the shame of it...) So by that reasoning, the only justifiable livery would be LNWR lined black for any fitted locomotive and plain black for any unfitted locomotive - which was probably what Riddles really wanted!

Edited August 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[The Johnster]

Come to that, in a pinch, any loco that was capable of hauling the train within the rules that is available can be used, and will be.  The GWR built all it's locos to be capable of hauling all it's trains, subject to route availability, and AFAIK the only exceptions were the 67xx and 6750 panniers, which had no vacuum brakes or steam heating pipes.  Locos inherited at the grouping and the ROD 30xx were the other exceptions.  

 

Liveries are incapable of preventing a locomotive from hauling a train, and as soon as more than one livery is being used, there are going to be anomalies.  The 3F rated 57xx and 8750 were the usual motive power on the Newport-Brecon service, which had gangwayed stock and took longer than some trains did between Cardiff and Paddington.  The normal loco for the Milford Haven-Paddington fish train, a class C goods, was a 7P Castle, relieved at Canton by another Castle, and this was repeated everywhere.  

 

My impression of Riddles is that he was very aware of the part that liveries played in the image of the railway, and as I have said I believe he chose, and used, his liveries wisely.  I have no doubt whatsoever that unlined black for all locos was mooted at executive and probably Commission level and that he had had to stick to his guns to get what he wanted from the bean counters, who would have been all too ready to remind him that his spending needed treasury approval and the nation was still in austerity, actually more so in 1949 than at any time during the war.

 

We as enthusiasts and modellers are obsessed by liveries, because they are a means to establish our layouts' periods, and because enthusiasts are obsessed by liveries anyway.  Working railwaymen by and large couldn't give a flying wotsit what colour the trains are, so long as they work properly, though public relations, what we now call marketing, would be interested.  They don't give a flying wotsit about how clean they are either, so long as they work properly and the job can be done in time to go home for tea.  You do not need to an enthusiast to perform a duty on the railway; you need to turn up on time (harder than it looks at 3 am on foul winter's night) sober and in good health, know the rules, your route if you are train crew, and your traction if you are a driver, carry the required and up to date equipment and publications, read the notices, and get on with it.  How 'enthusiastic' about all this you are, and I refer you to 3 am on a foul winter's night again, is your business.

 

Promotion is not affected by enthusiasm, it is affected by good attendance and sickness records, a lack of disciplinary action against you, and the ability to look smart in a uniform and not upset the travelling public, well, not much, anyway.  I have seen it from both sides, enthusiast and run of the mill I'd rather be up the pub, or still in bed, working railwayman, and try to model this.  I preferred Hymeks to 25s on the 90mph 4E11, 00.25 Cardiff-Peterborough Parcels, not because i prefer Hymeks to 25s as an enthusiast, which I do, but because the 25s would, I knew, be noisy, draughty, and uncomfortable in general, that I would freeze in the cab in cold weather even with the heater full on, and that my spine would be at least an inch shorter when we got to Gloucester, and so would the driver's.  On a Hymek OTOH, I would sit in a comfortable armchair on a quiet, properly noise insulated, smooth riding loco and usually had to open the window a bit because it was too warm.  After working the return leg of the Peterborough home from Gloucester, I would be relaxed and able to perform further duty if needed, usually a valleys passenger because someone had failed to turn up, and go home at lunchtime ready for an afternoon's refreshing sleep.  With a 25 I'd be exhausted and in not a little pain by 6am and much less willing to work the valleys job.  

 

So the loco had a direct effect on my physical state and my earnings, as I was prone to turning down lucrative overtime knowing I'd be at full stretch selling tickets on the valley job, esp. Mondays when they all bought weeklies.  These are the sorts of concerns that real working railwaymen have in their day-to-day lives, and liveries are well down on their lists of priorities!

 

[Andy Kirkham]

Is it known what shade of blue was proposed for main line passenger electric locos? Was it the same as the blue later used on the LMR AC electrics, or was it the same shade used for Class 8 steam express locos? Was any loco painted this colour in 1949 or 1950?

 

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Andy Kirkham

[MidlandRed]

3 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Is it known what shade of blue was proposed for main line passenger electric locos? Was it the same as the blue later used on the LMR AC electrics, or was it the same shade used for Class 8 steam express locos? Was any loco painted this colour in 1949 or 1950?

 

 

 

I think the LMR WCML fleet were the first to be painted blue (notable even those geared for freight work initially - the type B E3301-5). The fact is any of them could be found on freight also - truly mixed traffic! The AL6 were rail blue from the start so quite a different shade from the first 100 locos. The Design Panel was involved with the design and presumably livery design. Absolutely striking to see these locos pulling rakes of maroon coaches, particularly at high speed. 

 

The Southern Electrics nor the EM1 and EM2s followed this approach - notably the class 71 being green, introduced with the Kent Coast scheme in the late 50s. 

 

I wonder if Mr Bulleid received a blue panel for an electric loco as one of those promised? 

[PenrithBeacon]

11 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Is it known what shade of blue was proposed for main line passenger electric locos? Was it the same as the blue later used on the LMR AC electrics, or was it the same shade used for Class 8 steam express locos? Was any loco painted this colour in 1949 or 1950?

 

 

Yes, LNER Garter Blue in 1949, but then there was a change of mind to Electric Blue via black and Chrome Green.

 

AFAIK no BR electric locomotive was painted in Garter Blue

Edited August 21, 2020 by PenrithBeacon

[slilley]

13 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Is it known what shade of blue was proposed for main line passenger electric locos? Was it the same as the blue later used on the LMR AC electrics, or was it the same shade used for Class 8 steam express locos? Was any loco painted this colour in 1949 or 1950?

 

 

The second of the Bulleid/Raworth electric locos No CC2 was painted blue in 1948. I tried to find a colour picture for my book on these machines but no joy. Had to settle for a black and white one.

 

Simon