Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby?

[Wheatley]

A Bachmann main range train set is in the same price bracket as a Nintendo Switch or a PS4. The Thomas set about half that.

 

A single main range  wagon is available for about the same price as a smallish box of Lego, 3 Playmobil figures and a dragon, or a game for the Nintendo/PS4. 

 

Railway modelling isn't cheap but it's unrealistic to expect it to compete with the cheap mass market end of the toy market. Clearly Bachmann has decided not to follow Hornby's Railroad model for what, to them, are good reasons.

 

I also think it's a fallacy that the adult hobby needs to snare youngsters to survive - it snares adults with disposable income. 

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Silly Moo said:

I’m a bit mystified by your post, Bachmann do Underground Ernie and are about to reintroduce Thomas, Hornby do Harry Potter and the Hornby Junior Range with a Paddington train. There is also the Hornby Railroad Range. Not forgetting Lego Trains. I’m sure they are all available second hand if you are on a budget. 

i think thats a bit too young for the average teenager.

 

Personally I think whats missing is a “lima” of 2020...

 

that is a basic bodyshell, with no bells and whistles, but a decent paint job.

Thats how my generation afforded the hobby, accepting compromise for affordability.  

However the magic sauce is “2020” .. it needs to reflect todays modern railway, a railroad series of units (Electrostar, class 319, 195/331, 180,185, 455,507 etc etc).

 

Lets face it, super-detailed of these are going to be eye wateringly high, but if reduced to the basic level of 3 unlit NEM coupled coaches and a railroad motored carriage..it offers oodles of potential for super detailed modellers to rekindle their skills, and a cheap entry to those who are enticed by what they see at the station.

What I saw as a big miss was Hornby not milking a class 142 as a railroad model last year, sadly each passing year those 1980’s toolings will become less relevent as BR bites the dust, but theres a passenger carrying void when it comes to post 2000 built stock... Voyager, 170, Pendolino, 395 and Azuma, after that your luck slows.

it does seem to be a mental barrier here in the UK, Japanese modelling is dominated by units, Germany has all manner of units.. rather than thinking of a 4 coach EMU, why not look at how they are built...
 

often its two identical driving cars. look at the class 150... its the same as a class 318 but different intermediates, the new 195 and 331 is the same, most Electrostars are similar, and many are very similar to the 170’s.

 

So why not sell 2 cars, plus addons.. thats how we did it as kids...and if a door or two is missing but gets the right livery, well we made that trade off in the 1990’s, were doing it now with Railroad 47/66’s, so why not new units... that new generation can then push for higher quality as their finances grow in adulthood, but at least the market demand will be there

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by adb968008

[Claycrossjunction]

Budget Model Railways on YouTube did an video on why model railways are so expensive and later did one on the future of the hobby to me it said it all. They have their own range which sells well no I've have no connection to them or ever met them just admire what they do. The model railway industry is targeting the wrong buyer they will pay the price in the end . History repeats itself Hornby Dublo did this error refused to move with the times over produced over priced it all came crashing down in 1964. The industry is in trouble they think by putting the price up will cure all their problems it is shorted sighted thinking at best reckless at worst. The global economy going to take a hit big time and will be survival of the fittest situation in the business world spending will tighten as time goes on the industry business model needs to change to survive these times. I've read on this thread its an adult hobby but yet these people owned a train set or train has a child. Social media platforms have brought the hobby into the limelight either in reviews or advertised  the demand is there I often see comments in YouTube videos young collector's saying they would like to buy but simply can't afford it no one is winning here. Another thing I read here what people did in th 1950s/60s with respect we don't live in that time it's 2020 the industry could rise to the challenge time will tell who will survive.

[cctransuk]

12 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

 

I am aware of Hornby Dublo history I have a fine book on the subject . The question is why can't present day manufacturers do an budget range the market it is their for taking model railways are for all ages not the wealthy few who will be gone soon the young are their future no customers no business. Why should the young have to buy second hand have you seen some of eBays crazy prices they are nearly as much has new. 

 

Because it costs a fixed minimum amount to produce any range - budget or deluxe - and that minimum is NOT 'budget'.

 

There's no getting away from that - manufacturers are not going to sell models at less than they cost to produce, are they?

 

This is not rocket science - simple mathematics and logic!

 

John Isherwood.

[Zomboid]

When I was a teenager in the 1990s I could only afford any new rolling stock as Christmas and birthday presents. And that was the sub-railroad cack that Hornby were peddling at the time.

 

I could buy a superquick building kit with my pocket money if I didn't spend it on the cinema, the train fare & entry to an exhibition or something else that week.

 

It's never been a hobby that your average youngster could afford to go wild in, and I don't see that ever changing, unless the government steps in and decides to subside loss making toy trains, which I'm not going to hold my breath for.

[Claycrossjunction]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Because it costs a fixed minimum amount to produce any range - budget or deluxe - and that minimum is NOT 'budget'.

 

There's no getting away from that - manufacturers are not going to sell models at less than they cost to produce, are they?

 

This is not rocket science - simple mathematics and logic!

 

John Isherwood.

Like I've said before an Hong Kong businesses saw the opening I highly doubt they made an loss the Chinese for all theirs faults are good at business hence China's high GNP. 

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Like I've said before an Hong Kong businesses saw the opening I highly doubt they made an loss the Chinese for all theirs faults are good at business hence China's high GNP. 

 

Bottom line - if there was any money to be earned from your proposal, someone would be doing it.

 

The fact that no-one is, tells us all we need to know.

 

If you can't accept that, you'll have to find someone else to debate it with you!

 

John Isherwood.

[Claycrossjunction]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

When I was a teenager in the 1990s I could only afford any new rolling stock as Christmas and birthday presents. And that was the sub-railroad cack that Hornby were peddling at the time.

 

I could buy a superquick building kit with my pocket money if I didn't spend it on the cinema, the train fare & entry to an exhibition or something else that week.

 

It's never been a hobby that your average youngster could afford to go wild in, and I don't see that ever changing, unless the government steps in and decides to subside loss making toy trains, which I'm not going to hold my breath for.

The government are in part to blame in damaging any industry with VAT increases in the last few years we had VAT at 17/5 % then it dropped to 15% then it rose to the present 20% none of this helps .

[Claycrossjunction]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Bottom line - if there was any money to be earned from your proposal, someone would be doing it.

 

The fact that no-one is, tells us all we need to know.

 

If you can't accept that, you'll have to find someone else to debate it with you!

 

John Isherwood.

Well they have Oxford Rail spring to mind .

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Well they have Oxford Rail spring to mind .

 

So why the question in the first place?

 

"Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby"?

 

You are simply arguing round in circles.

 

John Isherwood.

[Poggy1165]

I expect the question a potential manufacturer would ask is - is there a sufficient demand at a given price for me to make a profit?

 

I suspect the answer is no. Model railways are no longer the toy of choice for the overwhelming majority of kids. Partly because trains are not an integral part of their life as they were for my generation. 

 

HD trains (for example) were not only owned by lucky boys like me, they were also purchased by serious, adult modellers of the day. That (adult) market now demands high fidelity - even at the expense of robustness - and the younger market is much more limited. 

[chris p bacon]

13 minutes ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Like I've said before an Hong Kong businesses saw the opening I highly doubt they made an loss the Chinese for all theirs faults are good at business hence China's high GNP. 

 

You really need to understand how the Chinese export market operates. For it's own internal production It is still classed as an 'Emerging market' and in very simple terms a company can export at cost and receive a payment from the central government to cover profit. It is able to flood the market with items at less than postage cost as this is also subsidised by the recipient country. 

 

Product commisioned from the UK for manufacture in China is treated as normal exports.

[Guy Rixon]

13 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

 

I am aware of Hornby Dublo history I have a fine book on the subject . The question is why can't present day manufacturers do an budget range the market it is their for taking model railways are for all ages not the wealthy few who will be gone soon the young are their future no customers no business. Why should the young have to buy second hand have you seen some of eBays crazy prices they are nearly as much has new. 

Why should a basic model be less expensive to manufacture than a highly-accurate one? Most of the costs are the same. The extra consultancy to achieve a highly-accurate, historical model won't be that great an increment. You can save somewhat by not having so many hand-assembled parts, but the manufacturer has assembly costs even for a toy. You could reduce the quality control, but the quality on the full-price models is debatable, so maybe not so much to cut.

 

The other possible change is to make the same models, year after year, in quantity, so that the tooling costs are spread out more. That's the exact opposite of the recent trend to make everything as limited editions, and one would have to wonder whether the older business-model still works.

[Dungrange]

21 minutes ago, Claycrossjunction said:

The government are in part to blame in damaging any industry with VAT increases in the last few years we had VAT at 17/5 % then it dropped to 15% then it rose to the present 20% none of this helps .

 

...but the VAT rate is irrelevant as it is applied to all competing goods at the same rate.  The government needs to raise money to fund public services, so taxes consumption of non-essential goods, which includes model railways, but also games consoles and other much more cool toys.  These are not life's essentials, never have been and never will be.  The VAT on toy trains helps to fund the National Heath Service (NHS) and other more important things like the education of these children.

 

The fundamental issue is that model railways are no longer 'cool' in the eyes of most children and teenagers because they have much more choice.  Most children think of toy / model trains as something for either pre-school children (ie 'babies') or 'old men'.  At my local model railway club one young boy came along with his father (prior to us shutting down due to Covid-19 restrictions) and the son's interest in railways is what prompted his father to become a member.  Santa delivered a new N gauge locomotive to the young lad at Christmas past, but his mother highlighted to me that when he told his scout group in January what he got for Christmas, many of his peer group simply laughed at him and highlighted that they'd grown out of Thomas years ago.  Peer pressure is a far greater deterrent to becoming involved in model railways than cost.

 

There are obviously children who are interested in model railways (despite peer pressure against uncool hobbies like model railways) but I think they are very much in the minority and as you've highlighted yourself, there are some cheaper options available.  There may not be as much at that price point as you'd like, but that is a direct reflection of the limited demand.

[Joseph_Pestell]

We do have a budget range - Hornby Railroad. Not perfect but certainly fit-for-purpose as an entry-level product, especially the former Lima models.

Comparing the current prices against what we paid when we were youngsters, they have only just about kept in line with inflation (and not that for some products).

[Chrisr40]

In my experience you can get high fidelity models on a tight budget. You just have to sometimes settle for an unpopular livery that has not sold well and now languish in the bargain bin. See the Oxford Rail Janus. Or as I really enjoy doing seeking the best bargains at the shows. Both mean a bit more effort than just opening a catalogue but you can pick up good stuff. My best bargain was  a brand new Heljan Hymek for £35 a year back...granted the husband of the wife selling it may not have been over the moon about it when he got back from lunch.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Chrisr40

[kevinlms]

14 hours ago, MyRule1 said:

Very cheep train sets do exist and many heritage railways sell items such as these...

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Train-Set-Tracks-Battery-Operated/dp/B009P540O8/ref=asc_df_B009P540O8/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309819440071&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=18088662022433817192&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9044901&hvtargid=pla-562193575390&psc=1

 

I recall Sam's trains actually gave a reasonable review gone.

The thing about these cheap entry level sets, is that they are often 'self-contained', in the sense they are incapable of being extended or repaired. So when they break, into landfill they go, because there is nothing else you can do with them.

 

That will put both junior & the parents off the hobby, as obviously it's just junk!

 

At least with 'proper' sets like Hornby or Bachmann, you can acquire another loco or whatever and it will just work.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Like I've said before an Hong Kong businesses saw the opening I highly doubt they made an loss the Chinese for all theirs faults are good at business hence China's high GNP. 

The Chinese can make excellent stuff, but they can also make absolute rubbish, which is not worth buying. Yes, they probably still make money, but how many do they put off for good?

[Joseph_Pestell]

19 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

The thing about these cheap entry level sets, is that they are often 'self-contained', in the sense they are incapable of being extended or repaired. So when they break, into landfill they go, because there is nothing else you can do with them.

 

That will put both junior & the parents off the hobby, as obviously it's just junk!

 

At least with 'proper' sets like Hornby or Bachmann, you can acquire another loco or whatever and it will just work.

 

Absolutely right, Kevin. When I ran a model shop, I used to dread January/February when I would get new would-be customers arrive wanting to add to these toyshop train sets. It was difficult to explain to them that Jouef sold three totally incompatible ranges under the same brand name.

[kevinlms]

3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Absolutely right, Kevin. When I ran a model shop, I used to dread January/February when I would get new would-be customers arrive wanting to add to these toyshop train sets. It was difficult to explain to them that Jouef sold three totally incompatible ranges under the same brand name.

The local model shop had an answer ready. He explained that situation to them carefully and politely, that there was nothing he could do. He then asked if he could throw it in the bin for them!

 

These department stores with a toy section & chain toy shops, just don't care as they have their money.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Quote

 

 

I take the point made that any new budget range needs to reflect today's railway.

 

For freight locos, Hornby are well placed with 59/66 and 37. Perhaps not strong enough on wagons.

 

For passenger, there is the bonus of shorter HSTs, but yes they are short of options for modern passenger other than 67 + Mk4 and the 156. How difficult would it be to use the 156 mechanicals (I have never owned one so don't know how they are put together) and put a bodywork on it to represent a more modern unit?

 

Edit: Forgot to 153/155.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell

[Giles]

First world problems.........

['CHARD]

10 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

.... the 156. How difficult would it be to use the 156 mechanicals (I have never owned one so don't know how they are put together) and put a bodywork on it to represent a more modern unit?

 

Not worth rebodying TBH - there's nothing appropriate and it would scarcely make economic sense, although they could no doubt churn out more recent liveries of the 156 that could appeal to contemporary modellers.

[Joseph_Pestell]

52 minutes ago, Giles said:

First world problems.........

 

First world problems is what RMweb is for. Escapism from all the world's really difficult and nasty stuff.

[tomparryharry]

I concur with other posters on here. Buy the budget items first, to allow the newcomer to get to grips without forking out oodles of cash.  

 

E-Bay is indeed a boon and a B'Stard at times. Just watch out for the silly items, where something cheap & tacky is gloriously described as 'rare'....

 

Yes, they are indeed rare. No-one else has ruined a model just as badly as that.......

 

Happy modelling,

Ian. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by tomparryharry
Teext clean-up