Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby?

[PatB]

I think we've established that there was never a cheap way into model railways. Not r-t-r at any rate. 

 

Which suggests that the issue (if there really is an issue) is, actually, how can we/the manufacturers/whoever persuade enough kids that the rewards from modelling are worth a) expending a high proportion of their finite acquisitional power, b) ditto time, and c) the very large target that being known for having a nerdy hobby paints on a kid's back. 

 

And that, I might venture, is significantly more complex than simply a ready supply of 20 quid train sets. 

[YesTor]

18 hours ago, NIK said:

Easier but more more expensive?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

Not necessarily, quite the opposite I would have thought.  If we are talking about 'budget' models then eBay for example is awash with Lima and older Hornby locos - there never seems to be any shortage of the old Hornby Jinty-framed Class 08 , or any of the Lima diesels for that matter.  And if you miss one then there'll be more than a few more along soon, and likely at a better price.  Wagon/coach bundles can be picked up for next to nothing.  Track and accessories too, if you keep your eyes open.  It's very much a buyer's market...

 

Best

Al

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

Not worth rebodying TBH - there's nothing appropriate and it would scarcely make economic sense, although they could no doubt churn out more recent liveries of the 156 that could appeal to contemporary modellers.

It would be no use to many on here, but actually using a 156 chassis (if it runs well) as a basis of any 23m DMU would be good enough for many people. Before RTR became as good as it is, I could easily imagine the 156 chassis being used as the basis of a 175 for example, or a 165/6/8. It would probably look ok from a sensible distance to someone who knows what they generally look like but aren't so familiar with the underframes.

 

In fact doesn't a 175 have cowling round the undergubbins? There's a project for someone with lots of time, a 3D printer and "modellers' block" - a 175 on a Lima 156 chassis.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

Why should a basic model be less expensive to manufacture than a highly-accurate one? Most of the costs are the same. The extra consultancy to achieve a highly-accurate, historical model won't be that great an increment. You can save somewhat by not having so many hand-assembled parts, but the manufacturer has assembly costs even for a toy. You could reduce the quality control, but the quality on the full-price models is debatable, so maybe not so much to cut.

 

 

This sounds good. You could give it a name. Design Clever?

[Legend]

18 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

There never was a 'budget range' of model railways - try Googling some old Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang price lists and converting the prices to today's currency.

 

It was, and still is, a case of cutting your clothing to suit your cloth and buying secondhand - something infinitely easier since the advent of the internet and Ebay.

 

John Isherwood.

 

True there was never a really budget range , Although I remember Lone Star OOO you could get out of Woolies . It was push along though .

 

However back in the 60s (early 60s anyway) I think it was perceived that Tri-ang was cheaper than Hornby Dublo just as now Bachmann is perceived more expensive than Hornby and Oxford are cheaper than both .   Hornby are traditionally in the toy and model markets and sometimes get confused .  Bachmann I think are firmly in enthusiast market with high cost items . I really don't know why they persist with train sets at all.

 

What is certainly true is we don't have a budget range with the functionality of the Marklin range mentioned previously . I think no one really is prepared to invest in the tooling for a low cost and therefore low margin range .  Possibly seen as too risky  compared to making for established enthusiast market ? Hornby sort of dipped their toe in the water with the battery trainset they introduced , it looks a bit like an Italian train and the latest version is in Paddington Bear colours . But you can't extend it and it lacks the functionality of Marklin . A bit of a missed opportunity there I think . I've always said that what was needed was a Cheap 66, and some hoppers for play value , and maybe something like an IET these days (I used to think HST but these are being withdrawn !)

 

The cost of model railways is a factor for new entrants . Parents reluctant to spend on something that their kid may or may not take to . Its much easier just buying something with the functionality of a playstation ,xbox or new phone  . There does need to be something better , more than an 0-4-0 and two trucks going round an oval.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Model railways have increased in price more than many other hobbies. In 1977, a tender steam loco from Hornby cost £10; a bottom-of-the-range SLR from Canon or Nikon around £200. VAT was 25% on such "luxury" items—it would soon be reduced to 12.5%. Now, the SLR costs about twice as much; the Hornby steam engine 20 times as much.

 

Of course, modern model steam locos are much more detailed; advances in manufacturing have cut camera prices, but — compared to "general" inflation which includes such items — model trains have gone up more than most.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

How difficult would it be to use the 156 mechanicals (I have never owned one so don't know how they are put together) and put a bodywork on it to represent a more modern unit?

 

Edit: Forgot to 153/155.

 

3 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

Not worth rebodying TBH - there's nothing appropriate and it would scarcely make economic sense, although they could no doubt churn out more recent liveries of the 156 that could appeal to contemporary modellers.

 

Almost but missed the baby for the bath,..  

Hornbys “all in one” bug motor is useful all round... the 4 wheel bogie of a 156 sits under the 153, Bil, Hal, 73...  the 6 wheel bug sits under the 31,37,47,66.

 

The costs of making, painting, assembling, boxing, shipping and marketing of any of the ex-Lima models are probably very much the same, if made in the same quantity.

 

Thats where economies are made:

 

The motor of the 156 could go under any number of units.

Hornby is capable of making 3 different mk2es toolings with retail under £40.

The motor goes retail at Hornby spares shops from £10.

so it is possible to make 4 coaches, one motored for under £200 RRP.

 

Electrostar seems to be the most on point, with most liveries per £ and most able to get several variants acceptable on a minimal number of toolings, with acceptable compromise... GWR, Gatex, Southern, SE, GN, GA thats half the country right there, other half eventually for sure.

 

I doubt many will buy 5 or 6 at £500 RRP, but the enticement will appeal at £200 before discount, even if theres the odd window out of alignment...
 

if the bar was lowered further to a  2 coach pack, with 2 coach addons.. your barrier to entry could be c£120-140 RRP.. that puts it firmly into the lads and dads market or commuter trainset territory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by adb968008

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Model railways have increased in price more than many other hobbies. In 1977, a tender steam loco from Hornby cost £10; a bottom-of-the-range SLR from Canon or Nikon around £200. VAT was 25% on such "luxury" items—it would soon be reduced to 12.5%. Now, the SLR costs about twice as much; the Hornby steam engine 20 times as much.

 

Of course, modern model steam locos are much more detailed; advances in manufacturing have cut camera prices, but — compared to "general" inflation which includes such items — model trains have gone up more than most.

 

Dangerous to quote individual items. Televisions, and some other domestic items, have probably increased by even less than the SLR.

 

Foreign travel is another area where prices are far lower despite continuing devaluations of sterling.

 

But another of my hobbies, drinking beer, has gone up by far more than the price of model trains.

[Nearholmer]

In response to the original posting, before I read what others have said: ‘‘twas ever thus.

 

A very high percentage of modellers started-out having to scratch around for secondhand bargains, saving-up from our paper rounds, wheedling at birthdays and Christmas etc, and actually eBay has made it a zillion percent easier to find ‘bottom end’ stuff upon which to learn the craft.

 

Cereal packet card is still free, and if you are lucky enough to have a proper timber merchant nearby, off-cuts are still cheap.

 

Doing things on the cheap actually drives creativity.
 

You won’t leap direct to a full-functioning layout with DCC and all the latest r-t-r on the cheap, but you will build skills that last a lifetime.

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Foreign travel is another area where prices are far lower despite continuing devaluations of sterling.

 

But another of my hobbies, drinking beer, has gone up by far more than the price of model trains.

 

That says more about the worsening state of the economy here.

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by adb968008

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

In response to the original posting, before I read what others have said: ‘‘twas ever thus.

 

A very high percentage of modellers started-out having to scratch around for secondhand bargains, saving-up from our paper rounds, wheedling at birthdays and Christmas etc, and actually eBay has made it a zillion percent easier to find ‘bottom end’ stuff upon which to learn the craft.

 

Cereal packet card is still free, and if you are lucky enough to have a proper timber merchant nearby, off-cuts are still cheap.

 

Doing things on the cheap actually drives creativity.
 

You won’t leap direct to a full-functioning layout with DCC and all the latest r-t-r on the cheap, but you will build skills that last a lifetime.

I’m going to rise to the challenge...

 

youve given me a great idea, my daughters train mad, and bored...

[ColinK]

There is Budget Model Railways who do 3D printed bodies to fit on cheap RTR chassis (even cheaper secondhand) It does mean doing a bit of modelling, but thats what the hobby is about.  Eg £15 for a diesel shunter body.

[AY Mod]

 

20 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

now theirs no hope for younger modeller

 

18 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

given how the economy is going no will be able to afford it

 

18 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Why should the young have to buy second hand

 

18 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

would not be a problem for Chinese to start making and sell them overseas undercutting others

 

6 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

The industry is in trouble

 

5 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

The government are in part to blame in damaging any industry

 

 

I am wondering if we are being trolled. Overly emotive phrases from a fresh arrival looking to realign the planets.

[Stubby47]

4 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

I am wondering if we are being trolled. Overly emotive phrases from a fresh arrival looking to realign the planets.

 

You've already been told off for being cynical this week, just watch your step or else...

[APOLLO]

 Realign the planets ?

 

Leave them alone - I love the way the earth rotates - it really makes my day !!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[Nearholmer]

21 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Overly emotive phrases from a fresh arrival looking to realign the planets.

Isn’t that simply the definition of youth?

 

Oh, hang on a minute..... I don’t think the OP is all that youthful.

 

Hmmm.

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Dungrange]

15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

However the magic sauce is “2020” .. it needs to reflect today's modern railway, a railroad series of units (Electrostar, class 319, 195/331, 180,185, 455,507 etc etc).

 

Lets face it, super-detailed of these are going to be eye wateringly high, but if reduced to the basic level of 3 unlit NEM coupled coaches and a railroad motored carriage..it offers oodles of potential for super detailed modellers to rekindle their skills, and a cheap entry to those who are enticed by what they see at the station.

 

I think that today's unit based railway is potentially also part of the problem.  It's not the first time that I've been at an exhibition in front of a trade stand and a youngster has pointed out a model of a multiple unit to which the parent announces, "that's too much money for a couple of coaches"!!  To those parents who don't know much about the real railway, they see a two car multiple unit and expect it to be the price of two Hornby Railroad coaches, which they want to pay £10 each for.  Multiple units are perceived to be neither as glamorous as a locomotive nor as cheap as a coach, but I agree that they are probably essential if you want to recreate a model of the local station.

[cctransuk]

44 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

I am wondering if we are being trolled. Overly emotive phrases from a fresh arrival looking to realign the planets.

 

The same thought had crossed my mind - and I am not unknown for being 'overly emotive'.

 

I couldn't help noticing that, at one point above, the OP argued that there is a budget range available from Oxford, despite his assertion, in the thread title, to the contrary!

 

John (Uncontroversial) Isherwood.

[Claycrossjunction]

If I was trolling I do a much better job than this. It seems to me people are jumping to defend the industry . When I first started this hobby I did buy new only to find the quality not that great  for the price parts in the box parts falling off it does not give an good impression. I have a son who has mental health issues it is hard work when having to explain why dad got to take back his favourite train when it should be perfect out of the box. 

[Claycrossjunction]

25 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

The same thought had crossed my mind - and I am not unknown for being 'overly emotive'.

 

I couldn't help noticing that, at one point above, the OP argued that there is a budget range available from Oxford, despite his assertion, in the thread title, to the contrary!

 

John (Uncontroversial) Isherwood.

 I mentioned Oxford Rail because their prices are cheaper than Hornby and Bachmann in general though I heard Hornby are involved in this company that could be wrong though. I once asked Bachmann about producing an budget/ starter range just got the standard reply. 

[Claycrossjunction]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Isn’t that simply the definition of youth?

 

Oh, hang on a minute..... I don’t think the OP is all that youthful.

 

Hmmm.

 

Lets say I am younger than you think .
 

 

 

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, Claycrossjunction said:

It seems to me people are jumping to defend the industry .

 

No, there's quite a few years cumulative experience here.

 

What is your budget that you can comfortably afford for this project then?

[Wheatley]

7 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Well they have Oxford Rail spring to mind .

Must have missed the Oxford Rail trainset. Their open wagons are cheaper but the rest isn't that far behind the others.

 

Maybe Bachmann don't want a cheap entry level range ? (Thomas isn't that much cheaper than the main range). Gibson don't sell cheap guitars, Converse don't sell cheap shoes, other manufacturers fill that end of the market. 

[Nearholmer]

18 minutes ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Lets say I am younger than you think

Possibly, since I misread the 1961 date as a reference to you, rather than your father.

 

I do still think you’re expecting a bit too much of “the trade”, in that it can make some living from genuine toys pitched mainly at pre-schoolers, and some money from adults old enough to have a bit of disposable income, but can’t make money from skint teens and twenties, or skint pensioners or anyone else for that matter, so doesn’t serve them.
 

So, the best way to progress when skint is to largely ignore “the trade”, or at least use it very selectively indeed, and to make use of secondhand and ‘freebie’ material.

 

We all have skint periods in our lives (well 90%+ of us I guess), and with a recession looming again any of us could be prey to skint-ness in the near future, but that has never prevented the determined and inventive from enjoying the hobby.

 

 

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, Claycrossjunction said:

 I mentioned Oxford Rail because their prices are cheaper than Hornby and Bachmann in general though I heard Hornby are involved in this company that could be wrong though. I once asked Bachmann about producing an budget/ starter range just got the standard reply. 

Oxford was it's own company and still is to all intents and purposes, but it has become linked with Hornby because the MD of Oxford became the MD of Hornby at the last change investors.

 

Hornby do plenty of Railroad models to suit younger people and those who don't want to spend quite as much, they benefited from the purchase of the old Lima & Dapol models in that respect as they got the bodies and then plonked them on their own budget chassis.  Some new models did get full fat and Railroad versions designed side by side so again there was some cost management by Hornby in developing the RailRoad range, then there are some models which sit in between the ranges.

 

But the fact is Hornby had before and still have a catalogue of models they can call upon to make the Railroad models.  Bachmann don't have that sort of lesser detail back catalogue so developing such a range would be difficult and where would they start because Hornby are most likely going to have a similar one in their pocket - the 20, 25, 26, 27, 35, 37, 40, 47, 50, 55 and then in the steam locos they have a cross section of what would be sellers - Flying Scotsman, Mallard, Tornado.  Bachmann aren't doing it because the cost would be prohibitive and the market is already covered by Hornby.  In the US Bachmann do the less detail ranges with economy sound - just like Hornby and TTS - because there they have a market to sell to.