Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby?

[4630]

7 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Bottom line - if there was any money to be earned from your proposal, someone would be doing it.

 

The fact that no-one is, tells us all we need to know.

 

If you can't accept that, you'll have to find someone else to debate it with you!

 

John Isherwood.

 

Spot on. 

[Giles]

"Why should the young have to buy second hand?"

 

Why should they be able to afford new expensive luxury items when they want them? I can't......

 

That's how life is....... many of my Christmas presents were second hand when I was young because for a few years my parents had very little money. I never had anything other than a second-hand bicycle, I've never had a new car, and unless I win the lottery I never will. As a youngster I was acutely aware that there wasn't enough money to go round, so of course I (we) couldn't always have this and that - but we certainly valued what we did have, and we saved up to buy from our local model shop, choosing very carefully.

 

I'm immensely grateful for what I have been able to spend on my hobby, but I spend more of it on components and materials to make things than on anything else, and I count myself extremely lucky. Money is again very tight, as it will be for very many people, and sadly manufacturers will be getting less custom, rather than more - which doesn't help them overmuch, 

 

I realised a very long time ago that just because I wanted something didn't mean that I should have it, or still less was entitled to it - second best - or second hand is perfectly acceptable. 

 

Andy - feel free to delete....

[adb968008]

On 14/08/2020 at 18:38, Wheatley said:

Must have missed the Oxford Rail trainset. Their open wagons are cheaper but the rest isn't that far behind the others.

 

Maybe Bachmann don't want a cheap entry level range ? (Thomas isn't that much cheaper than the main range). Gibson don't sell cheap guitars, Converse don't sell cheap shoes, other manufacturers fill that end of the market. 

Yes they do.., Epiphone... I used to own a Manic Street Preachers -esq inspired Gibson Les Paul in white, except it wasn’t, it was Epiphone.. several hundred pound cheaper,a brand owned by a Gibson.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[Nearholmer]

Attempting a brief shift away from grumpy old man mode .........,

 

I suppose the optimistic way to look at this thread might be to consider that once in a while, a very long while it has to be said, the frustration of a person who can’t afford something translates into them starting a successful  business providing the thing they want, at the price they can afford, to vast numbers of other people who also want it. I think F W Woolworth started that way, and he did alright until long after he had died.

 

Whether here and now is the place and time to enact the Great American Dream in budget-priced model trains is, of course, a different question.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Nearholmer

[adb968008]

13 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Whether here and now is the place and time to enact the Great American Dream in budget-priced model trains is, of course, a different question.

But what do you class as budget ?

 

I find Hornbys Railroad range to be budget savvy myself, coaches under £40, locos under a £100.. to me that’s got good legs... Hornby must find that too otherwise they wouldn’t be making so many of them.

 

Accurascale wagons let out around £20-£25 each, given what your getting, these are fantastic value. There mk5’s are around £45 each and are anything but railroad.
 

Budgets in the eye of the beholder.

Edited August 14, 2020 by adb968008

[Nearholmer]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

But what do you class as budget ?

In the context of this discussion, the budget in question is the OP’s, so you’d better ask them.

[Legend]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Must have missed the Oxford Rail trainset. Their open wagons are cheaper but the rest isn't that far behind the others.

 

Maybe Bachmann don't want a cheap entry level range ? (Thomas isn't that much cheaper than the main range). Gibson don't sell cheap guitars, Converse don't sell cheap shoes, other manufacturers fill that end of the market. 

Their N7 , which seems well received , is Comparatively cheap compared to Bachmann J72 . I think it was a proper motor too compare to the Coreless one on J72.  You are correct there are no trainsets , though , but I think we could agree Oxford is at the cheaper end of model railways . Not my cup of tea, but their rail gun is particularly cheap for its size and detail . 

[Talltim]

23 hours ago, Taigatrommel said:

  I wanted a Lima 156, I got a Hornby 142....

Bit like BR...

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am wondering if we are being trolled. Overly emotive phrases from a fresh arrival looking to realign the planets.

I don't know about realigning the planets but it does look as though we have a lefty who wants to change the old order. Model trains are for the sons of clergymen and army officers who attend public schools. Certainly not fit and proper items to be sold to the children of the lower classes. 

Bernard

[Claycrossjunction]

I do buy second hand but it can and has come with its own set of problems then having to mess about sending stuff back its not always the best option especially with having to care for our son 24 hours a day with new its less likely to be an problem. To person who thinks we should be entitled well no is the answer I have to save to buy things were not an well off family by any means purchases needed to be given real thought before buying happens. 

 

The 1961 date in the opening post was the year my late grandad brought the Hornby Dublo freight set for my dads birthday. We can't use it now and is not suitable for our son. 

 

Andy ask me what prices things should be sold for now bear in mind its for the younger modeller. Its needs to be kid proof super detailing no not really ,lights maybe but not a must. DC is fine DCC no . So basic train set with optional trains and wagons if one wants to add to their collection.  

 

Basic loco diesel/ engine around £30/40 

Basic wagons £5/9

All in train set £45/50 

 

I am not saying that super detailed trains needed to go just that the market needs to cater at both ends not just one. 

 

Ah yes the Oxford rail gun nice model my son wanting that but I know what would happen to it  LOL. 

 

 

[Claycrossjunction]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I don't know about realigning the planets but it does look as though we have a lefty who wants to change the old order. Model trains are for the sons of clergymen and army officers who attend public schools. Certainly not fit and proper items to be sold to the children of the lower classes. 

Bernard

Dam someone has found out about my grand planes for train model world even knows that the local vicar is in on it.........

[AY Mod]

8 minutes ago, Claycrossjunction said:

 

Andy ask me what prices things should be sold for

 

No, I asked you what your budget was, not how much you think things should be. That's completely different.

 

So, give us some ideas of what your budget is and what your interest areas are and we can give some meaningful suggestions instead of you wanting the moon on a stick.

[phil-b259]

11 minutes ago, Claycrossjunction said:

I do buy second hand but it can and has come with its own set of problems then having to mess about sending stuff back its not always the best option especially with having to care for our son 24 hours a day with new its less likely to be an problem. To person who thinks we should be entitled well no is the answer I have to save to buy things were not an well off family by any means purchases needed to be given real thought before buying happens. 

 

The 1961 date in the opening post was the year my late grandad brought the Hornby Dublo freight set for my dads birthday. We can't use it now and is not suitable for our son. 

 

Andy ask me what prices things should be sold for now bear in mind its for the younger modeller. Its needs to be kid proof super detailing no not really ,lights maybe but not a must. DC is fine DCC no . So basic train set with optional trains and wagons if one wants to add to their collection.  

 

Basic loco diesel/ engine around £30/40 

Basic wagons £5/9

All in train set £45/50 

 

I am not saying that super detailed trains needed to go just that the market needs to cater at both ends not just one. 

 

Ah yes the Oxford rail gun nice model my son wanting that but I know what would happen to it  LOL. 

 

 

Sounds reasonable - but is there really enough people wanting to buy such stuff?

 

Thats the basic problem with your argument - you probably could make a basic loco with no detailing, a basic paint job and a non DCC ready pancake motor drive for £40 but the market is going to be tiny and as such represent very poor value for money for mafacturers (and their shareholders).

 

If you want the sort of budget range you are talking about, you first need to address the social barriers which put young people off railway modelling in the first place. Long gone are the days when an interest in railways was considered ‘cool’

 

 

[Talltim]

9 hours ago, kevinlms said:

The thing about these cheap entry level sets, is that they are often 'self-contained', in the sense they are incapable of being extended or repaired. So when they break, into landfill they go, because there is nothing else you can do with them.

 

That will put both junior & the parents off the hobby, as obviously it's just junk!

 

At least with 'proper' sets like Hornby or Bachmann, you can acquire another loco or whatever and it will just work.

I’ve just bought one, as parts for bashing into narrow gauge stuff. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Talltim

[Zomboid]

I would have thought that a £40 loco would be sufficiently cheap and nasty to prevent the purchase of any further such products.

 

Though actually when I was restarting, I was able to buy a Bachmann DC Alco S1 for £45, and comically easily built, Atlas Trainman pre-decorated boxcar kits were under £15. If you look beyond the UK to much larger markets like the US then there may be sufficient volume to enable lower priced entry level equipment.

[Philou]

In respect of rolling stock and if you're capable of making kits, there's a good range of wagons to be had at reasonable prices - wheels included and self-coloured plastic - so no painting needed if you shouldn't want to. The downside is they are not as robust as RTR.

 

When I were a lad ..... we too, were not too well off and trains were added to at birthdays and Christmas - I believe it to be a perennial problem. I could only afford to buy stock (locos were paid for bit by bit) when I worked in a model shop! Jump forward 40 years and it's only being recently retired that I had been able to permit myself to buy what I wanted - family life, mortgage and the like got in the way in-between. As Nearholmer said above, it's a question of budget and even now my recent free-and-easy spending has been severely curtailed over the last 12 months and will be so, for forseeable future.

 

Just my two pees.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[PatB]

2 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

I do buy second hand but it can and has come with its own set of problems then having to mess about sending stuff back its not always the best option especially with having to care for our son 24 hours a day with new its less likely to be an problem. To person who thinks we should be entitled well no is the answer I have to save to buy things were not an well off family by any means purchases needed to be given real thought before buying happens. 

 

The 1961 date in the opening post was the year my late grandad brought the Hornby Dublo freight set for my dads birthday. We can't use it now and is not suitable for our son. 

 

Andy ask me what prices things should be sold for now bear in mind its for the younger modeller. Its needs to be kid proof super detailing no not really ,lights maybe but not a must. DC is fine DCC no . So basic train set with optional trains and wagons if one wants to add to their collection.  

 

Basic loco diesel/ engine around £30/40 

Basic wagons £5/9

All in train set £45/50 

 

I am not saying that super detailed trains needed to go just that the market needs to cater at both ends not just one. 

 

Ah yes the Oxford rail gun nice model my son wanting that but I know what would happen to it  LOL. 

 

 

I'm a bit behind with UK pricing, but those numbers look to be in the ballpark of Hornby's entry level stuff RRP. Which, admittedly, is not terribly good, with generic locos and stock from 40 yo tooling, but that's presumably how they hit the price point. However, with savvy buying, and waiting for bargains, better equipment can be had for about the same money. Didn't Hattons have the SDJR Jinty for 30 quid or so a while back? And ISTR basic Railroad coaches for a tenner or so, too (or Dapol's simple kits). Yes, what's available is limited, or dependent on luck and opportunity, but it's really no different from the situation of 40-50 years ago. There was a budget range back then, too, but Playcraft went to the wall a long time ago. 

[YesTor]

Okay, it's basic, but it is a train set for under £50, and there are many alternatives if you are happy to spend an additional £20 or so:  https://www.jadlamracingmodels.com/Hornby-r1248-santas-express-christmas-train-set-oo-gauge-2019/

 

Or, there's always the DIY route if you prefer to seek something more to your own taste and you're prepared to buy used.  As such, less than 5 minutes on eBay discovers (and there are literally hundreds more options):

 

Oval of Hornby track  £10.51  

LIMA Class 20 Diesel Locomotive  £36.00

Job lot of 5 Freight Wagons  £15.54 

Hornby R8250 Controller w/ Mains Transformer  £10.00

 

So it's still possible to clump together a few decent items for under £70.  Then you can simply expand with additional track, rolling stock, buildings etc as funds allow.  And perhaps similar to what others have said already, often the best tools to inspire the imagination are the most basic ones to hand - cardboard boxes and the most basic LEGO bricks I recall being my only options as a very small child.

 

Best

Al
 

Edited August 15, 2020 by YesTor

[YesTor]

 

2 hours ago, Philou said:

In respect of rolling stock and if you're capable of making kits, there's a good range of wagons to be had at reasonable prices - wheels included and self-coloured plastic - so no painting needed if you shouldn't want to.

 

3 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Ah yes the Oxford rail gun nice model my son wanting that but I know what would happen to it  LOL.

 

Indeed, it's actually a really good idea to perhaps buy your lad a cheap kit of some kind.  Frightened of him making a mess of it?  Don't be.  I vividly recall making a total pig's ear of the first couple of kits I laid my hands on as a youngster...  but that's kind of the point, because whilst you are making an irretrievable mess of things, you are also learning at the same time.  And by making a mess and learning it will either inspire him to try, and try again, or it won't.  In my opinion, creativity cannot be forced, it has to be drawn from a natural curiosity within... but allow him that opportunity... 

 

Al

Edited August 15, 2020 by YesTor

[SteveyDee68]

Budget Model Railways has been mentioned, with their 3D printed loco bodies on rtr chassis. One thing that has struck me is how much 3D modelling and printing is now going on in the Materials Science departments of schools; perhaps a way of enticing youngsters into the hobby would be to target schools with the information needed to allow pupils to create model trains? This is not something for the manufacturers to promote, but perhaps by the hobby as a whole?

 

For such projects, schools would work on the basis of a "standard" chassis for locos or a standard bogie power unit. Levels of detailing would be entirely up to the (young) designer.  If it wasn't for the pandemic, I was hoping to persuade a materials science teacher I know to build an Inglenook shunting puzzle layout using 3D printed structures; perhaps the rolling stock and locos could also be designed/printed by her pupils? Given the new "steampunk" range by Hornby, I would not be surprised to see some imaginative creations coming from young designers. Using technology as a "hook" might be one way of creating interest among the "digital" generation?

 

Steve S

[mdvle]

On 13/08/2020 at 20:44, adb968008 said:

i think thats a bit too young for the average teenager.

 

Personally I think whats missing is a “lima” of 2020...

 

that is a basic bodyshell, with no bells and whistles, but a decent paint job.

Thats how my generation afforded the hobby, accepting compromise for affordability. 

 

 

But it's not what the current generation want - they want DCC/Bluetooth so they can have the multimedia effects of playing with lights and sound.

 

Example - this kids layout in France, where the kid is dragging the father into DCC/Sound.

 

(note that I am not saying the necessarily want / need highly detailed accurate models, because I don't know, but they are an electronic generation and a plain old dumb train going around a layout without any effects isn't going to hold their attention).

Edited August 15, 2020 by mdvle

[mdvle]

 

18 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

The model railway industry is targeting the wrong buyer they will pay the price in the end . History repeats itself Hornby Dublo did this error refused to move with the times over produced over priced it all came crashing down in 1964. The industry is in trouble they think by putting the price up will cure all their problems it is shorted sighted thinking at best reckless at worst.

 

In case you weren't aware, Hornby has been losing money for a number of years now and has reshuffled it's executive ranks as a result several times.  Hornby is also the only one with a cheap range.  Maybe the should be selling stuff at higher prices so they make a profit?

 

And if you think UK models are expensive you should try the US - more expensive than the UK stuff - and one of the major companies appears to have just put through a $40 (£30.50) price increase on their latest new tooling diesel announcement.

 

18 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

I've read on this thread its an adult hobby but yet these people owned a train set or train has a child.

 

It has always been primarily an adult hobby - specifically the 45+ year old whose kids have grown up so the money and time (and perhaps space) is now available.

 

The key point to remember is that 95% of those kids of the past who had trainsets never returned to the hobby as adults, so the fact that they aren't getting trainsets as a kid isn't relevant.

 

But the kids who are interested in trains, and who will likely return later in life, are still in the hobby if you go out and look for them.

 

18 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Social media platforms have brought the hobby into the limelight

 

Which is the point many make - that things like YouTube and Facebook are bringing new adults into the hobby, they see a video promoted to them by some algorithm and it hooks them as they look for something to do once they don't need devote their time to their kids activities anymore.

 

18 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

either in reviews or advertised  the demand is there I often see comments in YouTube videos young collector's saying they would like to buy but simply can't afford it no one is winning here.

 

Always been true, so why would you expect it to be any different in 2020?

 

Though I would also point out that both Sony and Microsoft are releasing the next generation of their game consoles before Christmas - want to consider how many kids will be getting the (guess of $500) new console, with the extra controller(s) and other accessories, and the several games at $70 each?

 

For some kids the money is there, they simply choose to spend it (through wish lists) on something other than trains.

 

18 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Another thing I read here what people did in th 1950s/60s with respect we don't live in that time it's 2020 the industry could rise to the challenge time will tell who will survive.

 

The industry can't pretend basic economics don't apply.

[kevinlms]

7 hours ago, Talltim said:

I’ve just bought one, as parts for bashing into narrow gauge stuff. 

That's OK, because I'm assuming that you're adult enough to understand the implications and the purpose you purchased it for.

 

The topic is about budget priced stuff for beginners to the hobby.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

But it's not what the current generation want - they want DCC/Bluetooth so they can have the multimedia effects of playing with lights and sound.

 

Example - this kids layout in France, where the kid is dragging the father into DCC/Sound.

 

(note that I am not saying the necessarily want / need highly detailed accurate models, because I don't know, but they are an electronic generation and a plain old dumb train going around a layout without any effects isn't going to hold their attention).

I always have considered the idea of a basic oval and nothing else as rather negative.

Adding 2 sidings is a vast improvement, even if very short.

My first train set had a passing loop and a siding, for some time. My parents weren't wealthy, but grandparents etc, all contributed and I certainly didn't get anything else!

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

Another thing I read here what people did in th 1950s/60s with respect we don't live in that time it's 2020 the industry could rise to the challenge time will tell who will survive.

Fact is the modern hobby has already gone to cheaper Asian factories to get the models made, rather than British/West European wages and conditions.

 

The only way to get models made cheaper still (not that they are necessarily SOLD cheaper - got to keep the profit margins up!), is to go to other 3rd world countries and exploit them. There is some buyer resentment on doing that sort of thing. Examples include sustainable cocoa plantations, anti-child labour rules on textiles and footwear and even fair wages!

 

All of these go against making cheaper and cheaper models available, so little Johnny can have an extra wagon in his train set for the same price!