Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby?

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, PatB said:

It's been a while since I read a recent RM, but ISTR it was a mix of the two, usually with two or three short articles under the Right Away banner

Sometimes Paul A. Lunn provided a compact layout plan, before he went to Model Rail.

[phil_sutters]

20 hours ago, PatB said:

It's been a while since I read a recent RM, but ISTR it was a mix of the two, usually with two or three short articles under the Right Away banner

The October RM 'Railway Modelling Explored' has six pages of articles on constructing a starter level continuous-run layout - Lockdown Junction - a collection of simple scenic suggestions for N gauge layouts and a method of starting a garden layout that can be taken up and down as required. As far as I can make out, all are by non-staff contributors.

BRM has a lengthy article on making trees from largely cheap and natural materials. There is also a comprehensive description of building a 1970s bungalow from a laser cut kit. Both these would make good early projects.

The last issue of MR I have ,No. 277, is packed with how-to-do articles - some harder than others, but some good material for new recruits.

The disheartening thing I would find if starting out now are the pages and pages of reviews of expensive locos and rolling stock. I am sure that comparisons have been made with the earnings levels versus cost of locos now and when I and others my age were starting out in the 1960s, but there is so much tempting kit out there now.

One aspect that must be encouraging is the number of really small layouts being made - boxfiles and the hideously named 'inglenook' - making easier starting points. Some of the TV competition steam punk and futuristic layouts have shown options that may be more appealing, although seeing mainstream manufacturers trying to appeal to that market rather misses the point. It is surely the ability to create your own whacky vision is the joy of those layouts.

Edited September 10, 2020 by phil_sutters

[Rockalaucher101]

12 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

One aspect that must be encouraging is the number of really small layouts being made - boxfiles and the hideously named 'inglenook' - making easier starting points. Some of the TV competition steam punk and futuristic layouts have shown options that may be more appealing, although seeing mainstream manufacturers trying to appeal to that market rather misses the point. It is surely the ability to create your own whacky vision is the joy of those layouts.

Couldn't agree more. Small layouts are incredibly fun. I'm building a shunters puzzle on the cheap using set track and old Hornby buildings I got from a job lot on eBay. Slow going but very rewarding. Has Hornby ever made a video promoting this idea like with the family fun project?

 

As for the Steampunk stuff. Making an RTR model Steampunk or Sci-Fi is all about experimenting, so I don't quiet see what Hornby's Bassett Lowke range is aiming for... Is it pre decorated with cogs, pipes and gears or do you glue it yourself? Non the less though the idea certainly has an appeal to it.

At Warley last year you couldn't get near the Kato Pass layout there were that many people crowded round it. Bright colours, rockets, space marines, dinosaurs and it's a pretty compact track plan... Think it's maybe 5x2 or 6x2?

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, Rockalaucher101 said:

Is it pre decorated with cogs, pipes and gears or do you glue it yourself?

 

 

[Rockalaucher101]

Well it turns out now that Tornado is in BR Green again... That invalidates one of my previous posts about sets that reflect current locomotives.

[Chimer]

On 09/09/2020 at 13:28, kevinlms said:

Railway Modeller changed it to 'Right Away' in 2002, with the stated aim of 'an exchange of railway modelling ideas for beginners of all ages'.

So 100% bang on target.

 

Later it was changed 'Railway Modelling Explored', with in turn was a rehash of a pull out supplement that appeared in the early 2000s.

 

Again it shows what can be done as starting projects.

 

 

Model Rail magazine has a couple of pages devoted to readers layouts, with a photo or 2 and a brief description.

 

So I don't get, where this ongoing discussion about ignoring beginners comes from - perhaps, it's the use of the word 'beginner', that is the problem?

 

I don't class myself as a "beginner", but there are lots of elements of the hobby that I have never got into, and I frequently find myself bookmarking articles in "Railway Modelling Explored" for possible future use.

 

Going back to the original "budget range" question, I am fortunate enough to be able to afford pretty much anything the Big Two produce if I really want it (or "them" if it's something like a rake of coaches).  But I know that for my money I'll probably be getting lots of clever / detailed features that I probably won't use (sound, lights, superdetail fittings) and/or wouldn't notice if they were missing.  But the economies of making basically the same thing in different ways probably mitigates against the possibility of producing two versions at significantly different prices.

[johnofwessex]

If you just want something to run, you can pick up some real bargains at shows, I got middle son a Mainline Manor for £9 about two years ago.

[PatB]

9 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

If you just want something to run... I got middle son a Mainline Manor....

Contradiction in terms, surely .

[Paleopotato09]

As an actual young person I am 19. 

The biggest factors stopping other young people entering the hobby is lack of money, public perception and well the skills needed.

Most of my generation adore technology most of them would look at you funny if you told them they had to create something. I think most like the finished product already there and are intimidated by the idea of getting it wrong. Or at least that's my silly personal opinion.

[Nearholmer]

2 minutes ago, Paleopotato09 said:

and are intimidated by the idea of getting it wrong.

 

That, I agree, seems to be a factor, not just in model railways, but in other things too. The pressure to "get things perfect", ranging from attainment at school, through to appearance as projected through social media, seems immensely greater now than when I was growing up (no social media than, thank The Lord), and it certainly puts teenagers off "having a bash" at a whole range of things. I know my son has limited himself as a result of it.

 

I would strongly encourage you to throw-off the shackles of perfectionism in all things - they are a sure-fire route to diminished happiness.

 

As regards cost: that too is linked to perfectionism. If you are prepared to settle for less than the most wonderful, there are second/third hand things out there for pocket-money prices, just begging to be sawn-up, repainted, "improved" etc.

[Paleopotato09]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

That, I agree, seems to be a factor, not just in model railways, but in other things too. The pressure to "get things perfect", ranging from attainment at school, through to appearance as projected through social media, seems immensely greater now than when I was growing up (no social media than, thank The Lord), and it certainly puts teenagers off "having a bash" at a whole range of things. I know my son has limited himself as a result of it.

 

I would strongly encourage you to throw-off the shackles of perfectionism in all things - they are a sure-fire route to diminished happiness.

 

As regards cost: that too is linked to perfectionism. If you are prepared to settle for less than the most wonderful, there are second/third hand things out there for pocket-money prices, just begging to be sawn-up, repainted, "improved" etc.

Yep and social media isn't inherently bad its just the sharing of ideas...just sometimes the wrong ideas. 
rant over i do feel more young people would get into the hobby but i just think they feel the older modellers look down on them.  

[Nearholmer]

A few will, because there have always been arrogant young twerps, grumpy middle-aged men, and silly old goats whose egos are so fragile that they are threatened by youth, but the best thing to do with that sort of pompous fool is to recognise them for what they are, then ignore them.

 

There are many more modellers who are so enthusiastic about their hobby that they will encourage anybody who shows the slightest interest.

 

Just bear in mind that some of the best, most creative, and innovative modelling, has always been by younger people, people who have learned the basics (often by trial and lots of error) in their teens, and burst forth as real talents in their twenties.

[Reorte]

7 minutes ago, Paleopotato09 said:

Yep and social media isn't inherently bad its just the sharing of ideas...just sometimes the wrong ideas. 
rant over i do feel more young people would get into the hobby but i just think they feel the older modellers look down on them.  

 

I guess it can look rather intimidating, like a bunch of very serious old men, and whilst many do indeed take things seriously that doesn't mean they'll look down on you. Oh, you'll always find someone who does unfortunately, but I think the vast majority will be very encouraging. But possibly over-enthusiastic in the most well-meaning way, piling on more and more (genuinely good) advice until it gets overwhelming.

[Paleopotato09]

Just now, Reorte said:

 

I guess it can look rather intimidating, like a bunch of very serious old men, and whilst many do indeed take things seriously that doesn't mean they'll look down on you. Oh, you'll always find someone who does unfortunately, but I think the vast majority will be very encouraging. But possibly over-enthusiastic in the most well-meaning way, piling on more and more (genuinely good) advice until it gets overwhelming.

Yeah this is quite similar to my experience of many members of my local model club being too friendly and with a lot of anxiety that isn't helpful.  I'd rather that than conflict but slow steps to not overwhelm new members. 

[Paleopotato09]

22 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

I guess it can look rather intimidating, like a bunch of very serious old men, and whilst many do indeed take things seriously that doesn't mean they'll look down on you. Oh, you'll always find someone who does unfortunately, but I think the vast majority will be very encouraging. But possibly over-enthusiastic in the most well-meaning way, piling on more and more (genuinely good) advice until it gets overwhelming.

Oh also fun fact i forgot to mention is the UK is having an Aging population which means less people are being born and more are living longer. 

[DK123GWR]

34 minutes ago, Paleopotato09 said:

intimidated by the idea of getting it wrong.

Not just something that affects 'fringe' hobbies, for want of a better word. At 18, most people who still play football are rather good at it. The rest have slowly dropped out over the years - some because of changing circumstances or a desire to persue something new, but others realise that as the pool of players contracts it is often the weaker players dropping out. This means that if they wish to continue playing, they have little choice but to play in teams and leagues where the standard of play is generally above theirs. Fortunately, I have always been a weaker player, and I think that's why I don't really care about how good (or not!) I am.

 

My view is that if you enjoy something - go ahead, regardless of your ability (unless you want to run the country of course). You never know, you might turn out to be better than you imagined. That was my experience with running. I was awful at it when I was younger - probably the second worst boy in my tutor group over 1500m in year 7. If I weren't so stubborn, I'd have been walking around at the back from then on. However, I always kept running to see if I could do slightly better than last year. By year 11, I finished 11th overall in my half-year group over a mile-long cross country (over 100 people). I could never have imagined that at the beginning of year 7. Soon after starting Parkrun later that year I was regularly finishing ahead of the person who had always represented my tutor group in the 1500m, the longest race at school sports days.

 

Above all, my message is that you should stick with anything if you enjoy it. If you turn out to be good at it that's a great bonus. If you don't, just do it for fun. If a human life is ultimately meaningless, it may as well be fun.

[Nearholmer]

5 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

If I weren't so stubborn

Try thinking of yourself as determined.

 

Stubborn is when you won’t listen to patently good advice; determined is when you won’t listen to people who are busy undermining your confidence.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

4 hours ago, Paleopotato09 said:

As an actual young person I am 19. 

The biggest factors stopping other young people entering the hobby is lack of money, public perception and well the skills needed.

Most of my generation adore technology most of them would look at you funny if you told them they had to create something. I think most like the finished product already there and are intimidated by the idea of getting it wrong. Or at least that's my silly personal opinion.

As a fellow young person (15), I completely agree with you. With my being in the USA, the situation is somewhat different. When I tell people I mess about with live steam engines, they are typically shocked. On rare occasions in a bad way, but most of the time they’re just shocked.

 

I certainly agree with you regarding money. Having been a OO modeler for 3 years before going into live steam o scale, I was able to buy one brand new rtr locomotive during those three years (a Bachmann 3f). Everything else had to be second hand, something that when concerning locos probably frustrates people due to how much better modern era rtr stuff is. 
 

Social Media is certainly the overwhelming thing in our lives. Most kids I know would much rather spend 2 hours scrolling on the ‘gram or Reddit rather than say, weather a BR mk 1. Although I think some might like it if they tried it, as they get so little job satisfaction from school. 
 

 

Douglas

[J. S. Bach]

2 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

 ...snip... I certainly agree with you regarding money. Having been a OO modeler for 3 years before going into live steam o scale, I was able to buy one brand new rtr locomotive during those three years (a Bachmann 3f). Everything else had to be second hand, something that when concerning locos probably frustrates people due to how much better modern era rtr stuff is.

 

Douglas

EDIT: Note all below are US O scale 1/48.

 

Some of the BEST stuff is on the used market; for example, this 13+ pound* Fairbanks Morse H16-44:

 

With its large wound-field motor somewhat visible in the cab (should be replaced with a can), ...

... and its 8-wheel drive and relatively low gearing, it should be able to pull the plumbing right out of the station:

 

The problem with most modern locomotives is (to me) all the electronic carp that is stuffed in them. It will not last like the old stuff; a lot of postwar Lionel still runs after fifty years. The modern stuff will not be easily repairable; the circuit components will be long obsolete and out of production.

 

Mr. Paleopotato09,

 Do not worry about your modeling skills, they WILL develop as you progress in the hobby. Mine eventually developed and I was able to successfully build these two cars from kits that were little more than boxes of sticks; note that the Santa Fe "target" decal was one piece and extremely difficult to install correctly and there were two of them :

 

 

 I do not understand your statement "many members of my local model club being too friendly and with a lot of anxiety", would you rather they be grouchy? Let me tell you of an experience that I had years ago at a club. There was a older member (70's probably) who some of us younger thought was a mean, nasty person. One day I asked him very politely if I could come up in the O scale layout control station and watch. " Yes, but do not touch anything." Jake replied nicely. While I was up there, he asked me to hold in a circuit breaker (with a wood stick) as the locomotive set that he planned to start operations with would draw well over 20 amps and pop the breaker (the warmed-up, running current was around 10A max). After that session, I was always welcome up there and Jake slowly taught me how to run the O scale layout. Anyway, welcome to this fine hobby.

 

 

* Some call these types "doorstops" although I prefer "boat anchors"; in the case above maybe aircraft carrier anchor?

Edited May 7, 2021 by J. S. Bach

[rob D2]

9 hours ago, Paleopotato09 said:

As an actual young person I am 19. 

The biggest factors stopping other young people entering the hobby is lack of money, public perception and well the skills needed.

Most of my generation adore technology most of them would look at you funny if you told them they had to create something. I think most like the finished product already there and are intimidated by the idea of getting it wrong. Or at least that's my silly personal opinion.

- lack of money has always been a factor for young people, and always will, unfortunately you have to manage your expectations to what you can afford. When you get older , all that happens is you have more stuff you have to spend it on , so you have to manage your expectations again .....until covid i earned a great salary, but even I sucked in my breath when RTR locos went over £150.

 

Public perception will never change - most people will look at it as a eccentric nerdy niche interest. These days though, most will be less willing to take the p@ss, due to the current “ be kind at all costs to everything “ , hugging mantra . 
 

Skills . None of it is complicated if taken as small bites ( I’m pretty much self taught )and the internet is where you win there . From the banality of “Sam’s trains  “ all the way through to, “ how to make a multi level gradient in P4 gauge “, it’s all there for the taking , and much easier to get information these days than it was .

 

Condescending old men in clubs. They’ll always be one ( or more ). The hobby continues to age - I was reading 1995 “ rail modeller “ mags and the folk in their 30s appear to be the oneswho are still knocking around .

Unfortuntely confidence to deal with these “ characters “ only comes with time, age and experience .

 

Over friendly members - tricky one that . It might not help your anxiety but they would be castigated the other way of they were stand offish and not friendly . It may be worth an email before to set the ground so they understand where you are coming from. Personally I’m not a mode club type - I want to build what I want to build ,without  compromise on what someone else wants .

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by rob D2

[Richard_A]

Regarding costs as stated look at second hand, I picked up a 6 car kitmaster blue pullman for £80, not as good as the Bachmann one but good enough for me. 

[Rockalaucher101]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I would strongly encourage you to throw-off the shackles of perfectionism in all things - they are a sure-fire route to diminished happiness.

I couldn't agree more.

Once you stop caring about getting things 100% perfect you can start to have a lot more fun.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Rockalaucher101 said:

I couldn't agree more.

Once you stop caring about getting things 100% perfect you can start to have a lot more fun.

I've got a perfectionist attitude and ham-fisted ability, which isn't a great match (assume the latter will improve with time though, if I ever get around to doing any more modelling!) Personally I think there's a lot of satisfaction in doing things to the best of your ability, wherever that is, so finding that balance between perfectionism and realistic capability is the trick. To be satisfied with that leaves a bit of push to improve without being unhappy with the results you've produced.

[Rockalaucher101]

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I've got a perfectionist attitude and ham-fisted ability, which isn't a great match (assume the latter will improve with time though, if I ever get around to doing any more modelling!) Personally I think there's a lot of satisfaction in doing things to the best of your ability, wherever that is, so finding that balance between perfectionism and realistic capability is the trick. To be satisfied with that leaves a bit of push to improve without being unhappy with the results you've produced.

Exactly, finding that balance is where real fun can be had.

I have developed quite an enjoyment for bashing models since finding that sweet spot. Currently working on Ivor the Engine made using a Hornby Toy Story loco, A3 wheels with spokes cut off (maybe, haven't decided) and a few other odds and ends. Hopefully it'll work out but I'm never worried about it being perfect.

 

[Dunsignalling]

16 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

That, I agree, seems to be a factor, not just in model railways, but in other things too. The pressure to "get things perfect", ranging from attainment at school, through to appearance as projected through social media, seems immensely greater now than when I was growing up (no social media than, thank The Lord), and it certainly puts teenagers off "having a bash" at a whole range of things. I know my son has limited himself as a result of it.

 

I would strongly encourage you to throw-off the shackles of perfectionism in all things - they are a sure-fire route to diminished happiness.

 

As regards cost: that too is linked to perfectionism. If you are prepared to settle for less than the most wonderful, there are second/third hand things out there for pocket-money prices, just begging to be sawn-up, repainted, "improved" etc.

I was about to contribute my two pennorth to this thread, then I read this and realised you'd already covered all the territory I was going to visit.

 

John

Edited May 7, 2021 by Dunsignalling