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SDJR 6 Wheeled Brake Van


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I've been making an attempt at 3D printing the 6 Wheel Brake van, in 2mm/N gauge.  I've only had access to 1 drawing and 1 photo, which are both side on views.  Info or pics of the ends appear to be rare.  I've used the 20T Mail/ Brake van end as a basis, but with internal bracing.

Anyone have any info/pics or have built the 4mm kit?

cheers

Ben of Oz

SDJR 6 Wheel Brake test 18.jpg

SDJR 6 wheeled mail brake van.jpg

SDJR 6 wheeled mail brake van_01.jpg

SDJR_6_Wheel_Brake_Side_aand_end_wall_v18.stl

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Hello Ben,

 

Don't think that I can help with any photos but I have two sets of Mousa Models etches (3mm scale) for this vehicle. I'm afraid that I can't get to them until Sat but if they reveal anything I will try and post a photo of them.

I will also check the S&DJR stock register and see if it gives any photographic sources, although I know that the view that you have posted is in the book.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

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I have found one photo of what I suspect is the end of this 'type' of vehicle although I am slightly cautious as the ducket appears to be in a lower position, but it does support the 7 footsteps on the one end.

If you look at the side view photo that you've posted you can see that on the left hand end there is a grab handle on the roof and also a verticle one on the edge of the end, you can also just make out the sides of the footsteps. (These don't appear to be on the drawing.)

 

This photo appears in Celebration of the Somerset & Dorset Railway by Alan Hammond, p.80, the vehicle being behind Scottie No. 2887. (I will PM you regarding this.)

 

I believe that I have also seen another photo featuring this van in the background somewhere but as of yet I haven't managed to refind it but I will keep looking as it will also help me when I build my kits.

 

Good luck with the model.

Regards,

Ian.

Edited by 03060
Correction.
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 I think that the mail vans only ran on the Bath to Bournemouth route. The well known official photo of No.6 would have been taken as it came new out of Highbridge carriage works. This photo is clearly not of a new or repainted van. So I think that the location is more likely to be Bath than Highbridge.

The large blocks are most likely coal. When coal was cheaper companies bought in stocks and stacked them around depots for use when the price was high or supplies were delayed or restricted in some way. In The S&DR by Barrie & Clinker there is a photo of No.3, a Fox Walker saddle tank beside such a stack. There may even be a tiny section of your van in the background beyond the stack. Only a very small section, probably a foot below the edge of the roof is visible and it is not very distinct, but it does show the end with the hand rail and the top central step. It is hard to make out any details so it may be a completely different van. The lamp top does look similar though!

 

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On 18/08/2020 at 00:47, phil_sutters said:

 I think that the mail vans only ran on the Bath to Bournemouth route. The well known official photo of No.6 would have been taken as it came new out of Highbridge carriage works. This photo is clearly not of a new or repainted van. So I think that the location is more likely to be Bath than Highbridge.

The large blocks are most likely coal. When coal was cheaper companies bought in stocks and stacked them around depots for use when the price was high or supplies were delayed or restricted in some way. In The S&DR by Barrie & Clinker there is a photo of No.3, a Fox Walker saddle tank beside such a stack. There may even be a tiny section of your van in the background beyond the stack. Only a very small section, probably a foot below the edge of the roof is visible and it is not very distinct, but it does show the end with the hand rail and the top central step. It is hard to make out any details so it may be a completely different van. The lamp top does look similar though!

 

 

I don't know if mail/brake vans only ran between Bath and Bournemouth but there is a well known picture (in my Bath thread) of one at Wells in the early 50s. I suspect they were cascaded down like most other stock.

 

I supplied Ben with the picture above of van 42 and it is indeed at Bath. To the left of the van can be seen the S&D coal stage before it was completely enclosed. This wooden stage lasted into the 1950s, albeit in a pretty decrepit state. To the right is the S&D shed. The van itself is stood on one of the Midland shed roads.

 

Van 42 is a completely different type to van No.6 referred to above. Not only is it inside framed but also a much shorter wheelbase. The only other partial picture I know of a similar van was pointed out to me by Ben and is a Casserley shot of Scottie 2887 at Templecombe in 1930 in Alan Hammond's Celebration of the S&D. That said, great spot of another similar van behind the coalstack in the Barrie and Clinker book although, as you say, there is tantalisingly little to be seen.

 

The other point worth pondering is if this type of mail van (as opposed to the goods brake/mail van) was blue - thoughts?

 

Jerry

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5 minutes ago, queensquare said:

 

The other point worth pondering is if this type of mail van (as opposed to the goods brake/mail van) was blue - thoughts?

 

Jerry

 

Mmm, good question, Jerry, I've currently got the Mousa Models etches that I photographed earlier in the thread now on the workbench (but won't get started on them until next week now due to work) and had decided that I was going to paint it the greeny grey shade that I have other wagons painted in but now you've put doubt in my mind. It is definately a darker colour than the open wagon at the coaling stage.

 

Regarding the Casserley shot, I did point out to Ben that the ducket is lower down on the wagon in the photo and wondered if it had been modified at some point ....or is it the mystery Mail Van No.41 of which we know nothing about other than 2 were ordered from Derby (Garner.) As I have 2 sets of etches I may do one of each version.

 

I'd be interested in others opinions.

 

Regards,

Ian.

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10 minutes ago, 03060 said:

 

Mmm, good question, Jerry, I've currently got the Mousa Models etches that I photographed earlier in the thread now on the workbench (but won't get started on them until next week now due to work) and had decided that I was going to paint it the greeny grey shade that I have other wagons painted in but now you've put doubt in my mind. It is definately a darker colour than the open wagon at the coaling stage.

 

Regarding the Casserley shot, I did point out to Ben that the ducket is lower down on the wagon in the photo and wondered if it had been modified at some point ....or is it the mystery Mail Van No.41 of which we know nothing about other than 2 were ordered from Derby (Garner.) As I have 2 sets of etches I may do one of each version.

 

I'd be interested in others opinions.

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

I'd completely forgotten about the reference in Garner about the two vans ordered from Derby, that would explain why the six wheel underframe looks very like that on a Midland brake van.

The lower ducket could well be a later modification, as far as I'm aware all the 20T vans had their duckets lowered to allow for sidelamps.

 

As for livery, like you I did think it looked dark and also the lettering appears to be shaded on the cleaned bit of 42 which might suggest blue. However, it only has three links and not screw couplings so probably regarded as freight stock - therefore grey. Oh for a colour time machine!

 

Jerry

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Were I to be asked about the colour of the van without any prior knowledge of S&DJR liveries, I would have suggested that it might be red or a reddy-brown, both of which would have been rendered dark by the limited photographic emulsions of the period, particularly taking into account the coal wagon behind. I do, of course, know that S&DJR wagon grey varied somewhat, but, unless it is a very dark, akin to GW, grey which I don't think the S&DJR colour ever was (and MR grey was fairly pale too), I find it impossible to accept that this van could be grey even though it has 3-link couplings. Could it, as a mail van, be red (or LSWR brown), if not I think that it has to be blue.

 

One other thought, the "patch" around MAIL VAN appears to have been cleaned to allow the description to be seen clearly, that suggests that the paint work had a varnished finish and that, surely, suggests "passenger" colours.

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Derby C&W Lot 158, ordered on 17 August 1886, was for 75 20 ton 6-wheel Goods Brakes, D393 - in fact the first production batch of these heavy brakes - with a pair of 20 ton Goods Brakes and Mail Vans tacked on for the S&DJR - which explains the underframe, which is, I believe, identical to that of the Midland Goods Brakes. Note the earlier style of grease axlebox and the swing links for the springs.

 

Whilst the body styling has Midland features, as a whole its unlike any Midland vehicle. The panelled doors are remeniscent of those on various Tariff Vans and the 10 ton Goods Brake and Mail Van, D392,  built in very small numbers from 1890 to 1896 - but these were based on the standard 10 ton 4-wheel Goods Brake, D390, complete with end verandah. But the louvres on the doors of the S&DJR vans are sui generis. Duckets or guard's lookouts were rather rare on Midland vehicles up to 1896 - unknown on Goods Brakes and for passenger vehicles, confined to the 4-wheel Passenger Brake Vans of D529 - which were themselves numerous vehicles. Four early ones - dating from 1874 - were transferred to the S&DJR. The ducket on No. 42 would appear to be a square-panelled version of the D529 ducket. What does puzzle me about the kit is the plain boarded ends - based on Midland Ballast Brakes and Tariff Vans, I would have expected ends based on the standard Goods Brake ends, with a row of windows. But the photo does show steps and handrails at one end, to service the oil lamps, which are another feature highly untypical of any Midland Goods Brake. Are there any photos that show either end?

 

I see that Garner speculates that the other one of the pair was numbered 41, since that is otherwise a blank in the S&DJR Goods Brake list. 

 

Alas the Midland Railway Study Centre does not hold a copy of C&W Drg. 717 for these vehicles, though the Drawing Register lists it with a date of 15 November 1887 - showing that these two vans must have been an afterthought on Lot 158 - drawn by H. Davenport and J.H.O. Soper. Drg. 651 for the standard 20 ton Goods Brakes was by P. Ellis, the most prolific of the C&W draughtsmen in the 1880s, but the details of the ironwork and brakework, Drgs. 652 and 653, were by Soper. Davenport first appears on the scene in August 1887, with Drg. 703 "Flushing Valve and Fittings for Water Closets". Drg. 717 is his last - perhaps he was making real hash of it and was given the sack, Soper taking over!

 

What is the provenance of @nebnoswal's drawing?

 

I'd say the livery was the standard goods stock grey, subject to some darkening by reaction with atmospheric pollutants but also very grimy, with the grime cleaned off the lettering and number for the benefit of the photographer.

Edited by Compound2632
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1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Were I to be asked about the colour of the van without any prior knowledge of S&DJR liveries, I would have suggested that it might be red or a reddy-brown, both of which would have been rendered dark by the limited photographic emulsions of the period, particularly taking into account the coal wagon behind. I do, of course, know that S&DJR wagon grey varied somewhat, but, unless it is a very dark, akin to GW, grey which I don't think the S&DJR colour ever was (and MR grey was fairly pale too), I find it impossible to accept that this van could be grey even though it has 3-link couplings. Could it, as a mail van, be red (or LSWR brown), if not I think that it has to be blue.

 

One other thought, the "patch" around MAIL VAN appears to have been cleaned to allow the description to be seen clearly, that suggests that the paint work had a varnished finish and that, surely, suggests "passenger" colours.

There is no sign of lining. I have not seen a blue vehicle unlined. The shading of the letters and numbers would not necessarily support blue, as the later No.61 was light grey and had shaded letters. The lettering is in the goods stock style, although that seems to have varied a bit, in general it was a plainer style with square corners. It also looks white rather than gold.

Where the grime has been cleaned off the background colour looks lighter than passenger stock blue would look. I think that is a light grey that has been through Combe Down tunnel behind labouring locos a good few times. Weren't the mail vans coupled immediately behind the engines, at the front of goods trains, so the station staff knew where to meet them to exchange the mails? I am not sure about this but it does seem to make sense. 42 doesn't look much dirtier than the Burnham box which must have had a cleaner environment. I have often wondered why it was necessary to write 'Burnham box' and 'Empty' on it repeatedly. Why wasn't the chalk wiped off before the next inscription was made? How did they know which inscription to take note of?

 

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16 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

 I have often wondered why it was necessary to write 'Burnham box' and 'Empty' on it repeatedly. Why wasn't the chalk wiped off before the next inscription was made? How did they know which inscription to take note of?

 

 

I'm sure that I've read on here somewhere in a thread about Road Vans that different sections of the van were allocated to different destinations and that these vans would be in a certain position within a train so that platform staff could quickly identify goods to be taken off or loaded as required.

 

I therefore read into this photo that there were 3 sections of this van allocated to Burnham traffic for which it has been used twice. (But I maybe wrong !)

 

Regards,

Ian.

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OT got cancelled this W/end so I've made a start on one of the etched Mousa Models Mail vans. Haven't built anything for a while and struggled to get going until I changed solder when I realised that Carrs Green is 183' + (not 145' as I thought) and my 15w iron wasn't coping very well, much happier with 145' but still a lot to do yet.

EA41046C-4B76-4EF5-A4AA-7C1CAF2F1828.jpeg

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On 21/08/2020 at 13:59, nebnoswal said:

 

It looks like the drawing, with ends, is available from the HMRS.

https://hmrs.org.uk/drawings/goods-brake-and-mail-20-ton-6-wheel.html

 

Yes; that appears to be a "modellers' drawing" rather than a Derby C&W Drawing Office drawing, so I'm wondering from what data it was drawn.

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Regarding the drawings, does anybody have any suggestions as to what or why there are the 2 rectangles on the roof either side of the double doors, they don't appear on the etch and I can't see any sign of them on either of the 2 photos that I have.

 

Also, on the subject of livery for these 2 vans Russ Garner always refers to them in sections relating to the Goods Brake Van Register for which in his Livery section the description is :-

 

"1886 - 1930  Various shades of grey from pale through to medium lead grey for all bodywork, including solebars and headstocks, with ironwork on the body picked out in black. The underside was black. Lettering was white, sometimes shaded black, possibly for photographic purposes. Internally as for covered vans."  (base wood.)

 

To back this up there is a photo of GBV No.15 on p.4 which whilst it is the same style larger van as No.6 it 'appears' as a similar shade to our van No.42.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited by 03060
Correction.
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3 hours ago, 03060 said:

Regarding the drawings, does anybody have any suggestions as to what or why there are the 2 rectangles on the roof either side of the double doors, they don't appear on the etch and I can't see any sign of them on either of the 2 photos that I have.

 

I think those are supposed to represent roof lights. The Midland D529 passenger brake vans, or at least some of them, also had them - the best view is in in R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 Fig. 499. They are virtually flush with the roof with just a shallow surround of flat beading, so may not show up in photos taken from the usual camera height of around floor level - 4 ft above rail level. They would also be obscured at that angle by the rainstrip. Nevertheless, I think I can make them out in the photo of No. 42.

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12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think those are supposed to represent roof lights. The Midland D529 passenger brake vans, or at least some of them, also had them - the best view is in in R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 Fig. 499. They are virtually flush with the roof with just a shallow surround of flat beading, so may not show up in photos taken from the usual camera height of around floor level - 4 ft above rail level. They would also be obscured at that angle by the rainstrip. Nevertheless, I think I can make them out in the photo of No. 42.

 

Yes, you are correct, I can also make them out on the photo of No.42 when enlarged on my tablet, thanks for the info, I will try and include them on the model.

 

Regards,

Ian.

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