Number of staff on long haul routes

[Mb1984]

Hello 

 

After reading the sad news about recent events in Scotland it got me wondering how many staff are onboard the average long haul routes around the country.

 

I know local routes typically have a driver and conductor with someone pushing the food trolley if available.

 

But, on your Voyagers, Pendolinos, HSTs, 91s etc.. the real mile munchers... how many staff are on there?

 

Thanks.

[Dungrange]

I don't think there are any more staff on most longer distance journeys - they may just change the crew part way through the journey.  For example on some services, there is no trolley service between stations X and Y with that member of staff joining the service at Y (or leaving at X).  I don't think there is a need for extra staff unless there is both a buffet and trolley service.

[Derekl]

Early reports on the accident at Stonehaven mentioned 6 crew and 6 passengers - later reports modified that to 3 crew and 9 passengers.

 

When I traveled around the northern parts of Scotrail a couple of years back, all the trains I used had 3 crew: driver, conductor and catering trolley. That seemed pretty standard on non suburban routes. 

[adb968008]

I think theres more on Pendolinos ?

 

Ive seen driver, guard, catering but i’m certain ive seen someone dedicated to first class and a TTI in addition.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Basically the operating traincrew nowadays will be the Driver and a Conductor/Train Manager/Guard (different companies use different names) except for Eurostar which has a Driver and two Train Managers in UK crews   In addition on some on some companies on stretches there is likely to be a second revenue protection type person checking tickets .  

 

Any catering crew will be in addition and varies between operators and the level of catering/buffet/trolley service they operate.  For example a GWR Pullman catering team includes someone in charge of the team plus a couple serving and a chef. - maybe another person as well.  But an ordinary GWR long distance train only normally has two people dealing with catering - one for the 1st Class 'at seat' service plus one for the trolley for the rest of the train although sometimes that bit is doubled up.   Cross Country is similar in numbers to 'GWR ordinary'.

[WillCav]

Where a trains consists of 2 or more units coupled up, if there is no corridor connection, you need a guard per unit.

Will

[Dunsignalling]

14 minutes ago, WillCav said:

Where a trains consists of 2 or more units coupled up, if there is no corridor connection, you need a guard per unit.

Will

Only if both units are being used to carry passengers.

 

Some years back, the Looe branch trains consisted of two 55xxx Bubblecars, one locked out and used only to provide additional brake force/adhesion. 

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Derekl said:

Early reports on the accident at Stonehaven mentioned 6 crew and 6 passengers - later reports modified that to 3 crew and 9 passengers.

 

When I traveled around the northern parts of Scotrail a couple of years back, all the trains I used had 3 crew: driver, conductor and catering trolley. That seemed pretty standard on non suburban routes. 

On early morning/late evening services, it's not unusual to have additional staff travelling to/from their shifts "on the cushions".

 

Whether one would classify them as crew or passengers under those circumstances is debateable.

 

I think this may have been a factor in the amended reports about the Stonehaven derailment.

 

John

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

10 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Only if both units are being used to carry passengers.

 

No. All that is required is one guard, who should be riding in the rearmost unit, irrespective of the number of multiple units in the consist.

 

Jim

[Reorte]

13 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

No. All that is required is one guard, who should be riding in the rearmost unit, irrespective of the number of multiple units in the consist.

A few years ago we were turfed off the rear Voyager on a service with two joined together to cram in to the front one, staffing being the reason given.

[Ken.W]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

On early morning/late evening services, it's not unusual to have additional staff travelling to/from their shifts "on the cushions".

 

Whether one would classify them as crew or passengers under those circumstances is debateable.

 

I think this may have been a factor in the amended reports about the Stonehaven derailment.

 

John

 

 

 

No, the crew's the Driver and (other than DOO) the Guard - Rule Book term, whatever the TOC chooses to call the person performing this role.

Staff traveling to/from their shifts, which with the nature of traincrew work can be any time of day, are still off duty. 'On the cushions' refers to staff traveling as passenger as part of their shift, to / from another location they're working a train to / from. As the term says, it's traveling passenger, and in either case they're not part of the crew.

There may also be other staff on board, for revenue, catering, cleaning purposes etc. These are not part of the operational crew and do not usually have operational training. With LNER and predecessors, on-board staff do have training in assisting the Guard with evacuation.

 

However, in event of any incident, any staff on board, whether on duty or not, are required to offer whatever assistance necessary, and would of course do so anyway. In the Stonehaven accident, there's now news reports of an off duty member of staff who was a passenger walking a mile down the track to raise the alarm.

 

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

No. All that is required is one guard, who should be riding in the rearmost unit, irrespective of the number of multiple units in the consist.

 

Jim

 

Maybe where all stations are staffed.

On local trains here (Northern) it certainly seems to be policy to lock one unit off unless there's a Conductor on each set.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Ken.W

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, WillCav said:

Where a trains consists of 2 or more units coupled up, if there is no corridor connection, you need a guard per unit.

Will

 

In Scotland, 6-car formations of (until their recent demise) Class 314, and still today Classes 318, 320 and 334, all with no corridor connection, operate under DOO conditions every day. No Guard in either set ! 

 

On the other hand, from observation, Pendolinos, when offering meal service, have Driver, Guard, Shop attendant, Chef, Service Manager, plus further staff providing First Class at seat service. 

 

[The Johnster]

Whilst travelling 'on the cushions' one is not a passenger, or a customer, one is travelling 'as a passenger', requiring a train certified for passenger use on a route equipped for passenger train use with facing point locks, or clipped and spiked points in the event of a diversion over a goods route.  But one is 'travelling as a passenger' in the course of one's duties; in other words, one is still on duty.  I once asked (as a Canton guard back in the 70s) if I was authorised to recruit traincrew travelling on the cushions in the case of an emergency, and was told that in theory I could; i was the guard in charge of the train, but that in such an event such traincrew would be already getting on with the job in case I was, er, incapacitated was the word used, meaning dead, injured, unconscious, trapped, or in shock.  

 

I am not sure that I could technically recruit loco dept. staff or senior traffic dept. staff in this situation, but protection if advance if the opposite running line was blocked and the loco crew 'incapacitated' was my first responsibility, followed by protection in rear once I had protected in advance or ensured that a competent person was doing it.  I would, in the event, have had no hesitation in asking any railwayman of whatever grade on board, up to and including general manager, on or off duty, that was 'capacitated', to protect in rear with dets I'd given them while I protected in advance, nor do I have any doubt that they would have consented to my request and walked off with their detonators, hell or high water.  Exingencies of the service and all that.

 

I was never in that situation, and am very glad of that!  But that aspect of the guard's job, that he is in charge of the train and the safety of it's passengers, is not IMHO given sufficient regard in training or in general public awareness.  I can think of an incident in which passengers lost lives because they did not do what the guard told them to do; we were never really trained in the psychology of getting people to regard the uniform as authority, in the way that passengers would instinctively obey a policeman in a emergency, as opposed to regarding it as a badge of servitude which seemed to be the common perception.  Your job was to sell tickets, answer questions, close windows, but of course there was more to it than that!

 

Sorry, got sidetracked a bit there.  Railwaymen travelling on the cushions are passengers, and on duty at the same time.  Can be difficult to distinguish between travelling railwaymen and off duty commuting railwaymen in uniform on their way to book on duty or on their way home having booked off

Edited August 14, 2020 by The Johnster

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

No, the crew's the Driver and (other than DOO) the Guard - Rule Book term, whatever the TOC chooses to call the person performing this role.

Staff traveling to/from their shifts, which with the nature of traincrew work can be any time of day, are still off duty. 'On the cushions' refers to staff traveling as passenger as part of their shift, to / from another location they're working a train to / from. As the term says, it's traveling passenger, and in either case they're not part of the crew.

There may also be other staff on board, for revenue, catering, cleaning purposes etc. These are not part of the operational crew and do not usually have operational training. With LNER and predecessors, on-board staff do have training in assisting the Guard with evacuation.

 

However, in event of any incident, any staff on board, whether on duty or not, are required to offer whatever assistance necessary, and would of course do so anyway. In the Stonehaven accident, there's now news reports of an off duty member of staff who was a passenger walking a mile down the track to raise the alarm.

 

 

Maybe where all stations are staffed.

On local trains here (Northern) it certainly seems to be policy to lock one unit off unless there's a Conductor on each set.

The original report I saw described the occupants as 6 staff and 6 passengers, which was more ambiguous.

 

I appreciate the difference between those riding to/from their duties as compared to travelling within their booked hours, but doubt the media would.

 

Quite how one would render "whatever assistance necessary" these days when only a small minority of rail staff receive PTS training/authorisation, makes for an interesting conundrum. As does the requirement to be safely shod when going on or about the line. Off duty crew members commuting too/from work in uniform will be OK, But for others, knowing how and doing right is not guaranteed to outweigh lacking the correct cards from a disciplinary standpoint should the need be judged insufficiently serious in hindsight.

 

Unfortunately, covering ones rear end is something that inevitably does "trickle down" from the top. 

 

In the context of this tragedy, the need will have been undisputable, and the individual concerned may well hold appropriate certification and have been wearing the right sort of shoes anyway.  

 

John

Edited August 14, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Wheatley]

I can't do the multi quote thing on  a phone. 

 

1. LNER - driver, train manager, catering staff as far as I am aware. 

2. There is no requirement to have a guard on both ends of a non-gangwayed double set whether there are passengers on it or not. If it is locked off either it is for short platforms with no SDO, or because one set is defective, or because it is being moved empty (in which case it can be used if necessary/permitted) or exceptionally for revenue protection e.g. if there is a regular problem with all the schoolies piling in the other end to the guard and not enough real passengers to need both sets.

3. Staff travelling 'on the cushions' are on duty, increasingly on Northern the guard is booked 'assist' rather than 'pass'. Staff commuting to/from work are off duty but are expected to assist (or at least offer to assist) if it all goes south. At this point they will normally be regarded as being on duty as they are acting in the course of their employment. If you are on the way back from the pub stay sitting down unless it really kicks off. 

4. Having the wrong shoes (or no hi viz, or your Sentinel card is in your other coat, or you work for a different TOC) goes out of the window if there is a risk to life. Depending on your formal competence at this point you are either doing your job in less than ideal circumsrances or exercising your common law Duty of Common Humanity.

[jim.snowdon]

5 hours ago, Reorte said:

A few years ago we were turfed off the rear Voyager on a service with two joined together to cram in to the front one, staffing being the reason given.

 

4 hours ago, Ken.W said:

Maybe where all stations are staffed.

On local trains here (Northern) it certainly seems to be policy to lock one unit off unless there's a Conductor on each set.

The question, as posed by WillCAV, was purely in the context of guards. Passenger service/management staff are a different matter entirely. They aren't there to satisfy a Rule Book requirement.

 

Jim

[Dunsignalling]

10 hours ago, Wheatley said:

I can't do the multi quote thing on  a phone. 

 

1. LNER - driver, train manager, catering staff as far as I am aware. 

2. There is no requirement to have a guard on both ends of a non-gangwayed double set whether there are passengers on it or not. If it is locked off either it is for short platforms with no SDO, or because one set is defective, or because it is being moved empty (in which case it can be used if necessary/permitted) or exceptionally for revenue protection e.g. if there is a regular problem with all the schoolies piling in the other end to the guard and not enough real passengers to need both sets.

3. Staff travelling 'on the cushions' are on duty, increasingly on Northern the guard is booked 'assist' rather than 'pass'. Staff commuting to/from work are off duty but are expected to assist (or at least offer to assist) if it all goes south. At this point they will normally be regarded as being on duty as they are acting in the course of their employment. If you are on the way back from the pub stay sitting down unless it really kicks off. 

4. Having the wrong shoes (or no hi viz, or your Sentinel card is in your other coat, or you work for a different TOC) goes out of the window if there is a risk to life. Depending on your formal competence at this point you are either doing your job in less than ideal circumsrances or exercising your common law Duty of Common Humanity.

Very much agree with the last two and thanks for the info in the first two. Even non-ops staff will generally absorb enough railway nous to be useful in a crisis and, so long as they feel capable of helping without adding themselves to the casualty list, should very much be encouraged to do so. As a fairly robust retiree, I certainly wouldn't hold back.

 

Back more fully onto the OP's topic, up to the beginning of the current pandemic, many SWR Waterloo-Exeter trains appeared to have both a Guard and an additional conductor/guard's assistant (?) doubling-up on all the customer-facing bits the guard does. This mainly applied to six-car formations, so I'd guess it's to ensure covering the job fully given the frequency of stops west of Salisbury, and how much busier the trains were getting. Might it also form part of the training for future guards? SWT used to send trainees out under the supervision of experienced guards as required, but the SWR practice seems much more general.

 

I don't know what's happening at present as I've only travelled once lately (just Honiton to Exeter and back) and the number of passengers was so small that the most time-consuming part of ticket checking must be walking between the cars. The service is currently split into Waterloo-Salisbury and Salisbury-Exeter legs, requiring a change of train at Salisbury should I need to go up to London (which I don't anticipate). It appears to revert to a through journey on Sundays, though. 

 

John

[Mb1984]

Interesting to read people’s thoughts and experiences on this.

 

Thanks for all the replies.

 

Just to throw a curve ball in, how about the sleeper services? The Scottish one that splits numerous times, there must be a plenty of staff aboard that.

[Pandora]

In the case of the Stonehaven incident, the conductor who sadly lost his life,  was probably not a guard, he was probably a driver with signed route knowledge with the task of assisting the  driver at the controls. 

[roythebus]

46 minutes ago, Pandora said:

In the case of the Stonehaven incident, the conductor who sadly lost his life,  was probably not a guard, he was probably a driver with signed route knowledge with the task of assisting the  driver at the controls. 

No, from what I've read from private railway staff groups on FB, the "conductor" who died was not conducting the driver for route knowledge purposes. He was the "rule book" conductor in charge of the train. He was not a driver. The condutor who went to the nearest signalbox to raise the alarm was a lady member of staff.

 

As a former railwayman (and still occasionally active on heritage lines) I wouldn't hesitate to offer assistance in emergency. 

[caradoc]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Railwaymen travelling on the cushions are passengers, and on duty at the same time.  Can be difficult to distinguish between travelling railwaymen and off duty commuting railwaymen in uniform on their way to book on duty or on their way home having booked off

 

A distinction which caused issues with delay attribution after privatisation ! It transpired that, if Traincrew were en route to work (ie not yet on duty) and their train ran late, resulting delay to their own booked work could not be attributed to the cause of their late arrival. If, on the other hand, they were booked to travel pass (ie on duty) on a delayed train, any subsequent delay was attributed to the original late running. 

 

I would agree that any member of rail staff, whether on duty or not, or indeed retired, should, and in most cases would, offer assistance during an incident, with due regard to safety of course. 

 

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Whilst travelling 'on the cushions' one is not a passenger, or a customer, one is travelling 'as a passenger', requiring a train certified for passenger use on a route equipped for passenger train use with facing point locks, or clipped and spiked points in the event of a diversion over a goods route. 

 

 

Booked travel on duty is what it says - you are a member of staff travelling on duty so you do not need to be on something complying with all the requirements for a normal passenger train.  Hence trains conveying staff on duty can travel on lines which are worked under pernmissive provisions but are not permitted to be used by passenger trains in normal working, , FPLs are irrelevant - if necessary in those circumstances you could be travelling over lines equipped with hand points or you can travel in a brakevan or even the back cab of a loco.

 

If a member of staff is travelling to or from duty, and is therefore not on duty, they should travel on a passenger train or a train on which staff are permitted to travel when travelling to or from work.  Such trains may run over permissive lines from which passenger trains are prohibited in normal working.

 

If I happen to be wrong on either of those things you really need to take matters up with past senior (that is more senior than me) WR Regional management dating back to the years well before I, or you, joined BR, and I suspect maybe for the remaining years of the WR after you left the railway.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, roythebus said:

No, from what I've read from private railway staff groups on FB, the "conductor" who died was not conducting the driver for route knowledge purposes. He was the "rule book" conductor in charge of the train. He was not a driver. The condutor who went to the nearest signalbox to raise the alarm was a lady member of staff.

 

As a former railwayman (and still occasionally active on heritage lines) I wouldn't hesitate to offer assistance in emergency. 

The problem with former/retired members of staff offering assistance is that it depends very much on circumstance because you (we) are not currently qualified in any sort of R&R nor do we hold PTS unless you work on heritage railway and hold a PTS (and more) qualification recognised by NR. (The only one I can immediately think of is the NYMR but there might be others.)

 

Mind you if I was the only person left standing after a major incident I'd rapidly go into whatever sort of protection and advice arrangements I could manageassuming I could lay hands on any of the necessary.

[The Johnster]

36 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Mind you if I was the only person left standing after a major incident I'd rapidly go into whatever sort of protection and advice arrangements I could manageassuming I could lay hands on any of the necessary

Me too, and with the recollection of a thing I was taught at West Box University; always walk swiftly, never run, as it it increases the likelihood of injuring yourself on the oily sleepers and panics the passengers (as if they haven't been shaken out of their newspapers by the crash).  Except if the opposite line is blocked or you think it might be; then you grab your dets and red flag and run, Johnster, run like the wind...

[Wheatley]

Even out of competence (or never Rules qualified in the first place) retired or former staff can probably give the 999 operator a more accurate assessment of the situation than someone phoning in and just saying "theres been a train crash...". If you can remember the number for Control or find the E button on the GSMR, so much the better. 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Wheatley