Number of staff on long haul routes

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Even out of competence (or never Rules qualified in the first place) retired or former staff can probably give the 999 operator a more accurate assessment of the situation than someone phoning in and just saying "theres been a train crash...". If you can remember the number for Control or find the E button on the GSMR, so much the better. 

 

The E button is the best - if you know where to look for it and if it is then accessible.  However if the radio is still operational there's good chance the Driver is too.   The biggest problem can be knowing where you are if it's an unfamiliar route or even in this day age knowing the locations that used to exist but are no more and talking to Control staff who have never heard of them (although mile posts are of course very useful then).

 

the opposite also applies with some Control staff including one I was telling about a derailment who then suggested I could put in Single Line Working ( (which wasn't needed anyway) from the signal box I was standing in to one which had been demolished c.8 years previously.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

My concern with some of the replies in this thread is that some obviously come from VERY long retired members of staff giving long since replaced info.

 

For example- Bristol area early 2000's- all fine to run non-corridors (eg 142, 143, 150/1) in multiple with each other with only one guard, and not necessarily in the back set, except through the Severn Tunnel where there had to be one in each unconnected portion or the offending bit locked out of use. The Severn Tunnel bit got removed soon after so it was OK to run a pair involving no corridors through there with passengers "alone" in one bit. When the Voyagers came in their union reps were not as hot, so double sets with a single guard was allowed (so I assume the "we were all squashed into one set" report was actually due to other reason, eg short platform or set on an ECS transfer). On the other hand the FGW Class 180's always HAD to have a guard (by then called Train Manager) in each bit, and if there was a crew shortage the back set had to be locked out of use regardless of passenger demand, a situation which was replicated on 2x 5 car 800's when first introduced but eased by some additional training given to catering staff allowing just one Train Manager in the rear set.

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

the opposite also applies with some Control staff including one I was telling about a derailment who then suggested I could put in Single Line Working ( (which wasn't needed anyway) from the signal box I was standing in to one which had been demolished c.8 years previously.

I once had a on-call over-promoted BR Management Trainee demand that I implement single line working around a failed train. On a single line.

 

After a brief argument which ended in "Just do as you're f***ing told signalman" I did. Or at least I rang Control and said X had told me to ask for a pilotman and the necessay handsignalmen and why. 

 

I guess it's a bit like giving directions using pubs as landmarks. Fine if it's still there and still called that. 

[Wheatley]

46 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

My concern with some of the replies in this thread is that some obviously come from VERY long retired members of staff giving long since replaced info.

The information I gave for Northern is current. There was never an issue running coupled non-gangwayed sets around here as the sets they replaced (101, 108, 110 etc) weren't gangwayed either so 14xs and 150/1s weren't any different in that respect. The only argument I remember was which end the guard went in if the EBS was operated, there were pros and cons both ways. Appreciate that ex-intercity routes might be different. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Wheatley

[NorthEndCab]

On whichever TOC is it that I work for, there has to be a “safety critical,” person in each portion of a non-gangwayed train.

 

In practice this would be the guard asking you as driver if you’re happy to be that person in the front whilst they travel in the rearmost set.
 

You’re within your rights to say no however, as drivers aren’t given formal evacuation training much beyond, “Tell the Bobby if they’re jumping off.”

 

I doubt many would refuse if it was their “going home,” train and control wanted them to wait for another staff member otherwise though.....

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/08/2020 at 12:35, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

My concern with some of the replies in this thread is that some obviously come from VERY long retired members of staff giving long since replaced info.

 

For example- Bristol area early 2000's- all fine to run non-corridors (eg 142, 143, 150/1) in multiple with each other with only one guard, and not necessarily in the back set, except through the Severn Tunnel where there had to be one in each unconnected portion or the offending bit locked out of use. The Severn Tunnel bit got removed soon after so it was OK to run a pair involving no corridors through there with passengers "alone" in one bit. When the Voyagers came in their union reps were not as hot, so double sets with a single guard was allowed (so I assume the "we were all squashed into one set" report was actually due to other reason, eg short platform or set on an ECS transfer). On the other hand the FGW Class 180's always HAD to have a guard (by then called Train Manager) in each bit, and if there was a crew shortage the back set had to be locked out of use regardless of passenger demand, a situation which was replicated on 2x 5 car 800's when first introduced but eased by some additional training given to catering staff allowing just one Train Manager in the rear set.

Couple non-gangway sets ran on the WR for years with just the one Guard - not much choice when running two or three suburban  units coupled.  I think really that any restrictions had. have developed around greater perceived hazards (e.g. the Severn Tunnel) or with latter day far more complex trains (e.g IETs on the WR).  Interestng to learn on the latter that the safety reason for providing a trained person in 'the otrher' 5 car set has been solved by a bit of sensible training to catering staff.

 

And as ever before stating something on the 'net it is always sensible - or should I say 'essential?' -  to check any contemporaneous Instructions relating to the period you are talking about.  For example having WTTs which show Staff Trains booked to run over Goods Permissive Lines is a pretty reliable indication that they were not in the same category as ordinary passenger trains.  Similarly with manning of trains - lots of pretty arcane stuff but checking the original Instructions and Agreements is always sensible if you are going to say something that will be on show for a long time to come.

 

On 16/08/2020 at 12:47, Wheatley said:

I once had a on-call over-promoted BR Management Trainee demand that I implement single line working around a failed train. On a single line.

 

After a brief argument which ended in "Just do as you're f***ing told signalman" I did. Or at least I rang Control and said X had told me to ask for a pilotman and the necessay handsignalmen and why. 

 

I guess it's a bit like giving directions using pubs as landmarks. Fine if it's still there and still called that. 

One of the most amusing episodes I came across when I was on the Management Training course (BR Staff entrant) was during the 4 week long Rules & Regs course at Derby School of Transport - as it then still was.  On the first week we had an outing to Sheffield while the course tutors marked our exam papers from the previous day and Sheffield (Midland) at that time still had mechanical signalling.  The group I was in first visited the signal box at the south end of the station where a local DI duly began his explanation of things such as which lines were Permissive and so on.  When he stopped for questions one of our number asked 'what are those things?' pointing vaguely towards the fame and block shelf.  So vague in fact that he was asked 'what things?'  Which was followed by pointing at the lever frame. following which it got even more hilarious because having pointed at a yellow lever he was told it was for a Distant Signal.  But our hero ploughed on with a further question 'but what are they, what do they do?'  And after a considerable amount of puzzlement had crossed the DI's face he finally realised what he was being asked and duly explained was that it was a lever frame and the levers sticking out of it worked points & signals.  Several of us had considerable difficulty keeping a straight face.

 

The last I heard of that questioner he had safely been tucked away in the BRB doing sone sort of statistical stuff so he obviously found his level, I hope.   But his first appointment - as was usual on the SR at that time - was as a Station Manager (at a station without a signal box).

[roythebus]

Oh dear...sounds like the ex management trainee TCS at Rugby just after I started in 1975. there was always a problem with late running freight, men getting sent home pass and the like.

 

A set of Garston men were waiting for their return freight which was as usual running hours late, but they of course were prepared to wait (for overtime purposes). There was some sort of dispute on at the time. He wanted them to work an earlier late-running train. No way, they insisted they'd work their train. So he booked them off.

 

First words were "ok, where's the lodge?" "What lodge?" "Hotel, B&B, y'know..you booked us off away from home depot so we need a lodge". They went home pass to Garston, their train stayed in Rugby down goods for several days while they found someone prepared to work it north.

[Wheatley]

In the interests of balance there were some very good ones too, and a few well regarded senior managrs still around who started as MTs. The best ones were those who accepted that they didn't know it all straight out of block school and, whilst they were nominally in charge, trusted us to get on with the job whilst not letting us get away with murder. 

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Wheatley said:

In the interests of balance there were some very good ones too, and a few well regarded senior managrs still around who started as MTs. The best ones were those who accepted that they didn't know it all straight out of block school and, whilst they were nominally in charge, trusted us to get on with the job whilst not letting us get away with murder. 

Even if you had a railway background you always had a large amount to learn - if you were bothered enough to learn.  Trouble sometimes was that there were a few exceptions who couldn't be bothered to learn - we had several on our our year and I think they all left within a relatively short time (and none of them were on the Western fortunately although a couple on our Region weren't particularly bright and never really got anywhere).  However two of the non WR graduate entrants on my year finished up as MDs of train operating companies and well deserved to get into roles like that, excellent blokes.

[Oldddudders]

Which year were you, Mike? I was 1973, although I'd joined in 1966.

[caradoc]

I retired after 38 years on the railway, 30 of which were in Operations Control, and I was still learning right until my last day ! 

 

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Which year were you, Mike? I was 1973, although I'd joined in 1966.

I too joined in 1966 but got on the MT scheme in 1971 (and on a higher rate than everybody else because I kept my former rate - as you too might well have done?).   I never finished the scheme as I was taken off and put in an Asst Area Manager's job at the start of 1973 because they needed somebody quickly and I was - so I was told - the best qualified person available and I had some previous ground level experience.   So I missed the last couple of months which were mainly things like the staff office but I learned far more about staff matters doing the job than I ever would have done sitting in an office.

 

Oddly because of the big reorganisation towards the end of 1973 (which made me redundant) plus Asst AM sickness in a couple of  places within 17/18  months I had been in a Grade D Asst AM's job and then spent several months covering long term sickness in two others (which were both shortly to be abolished)  before I was appointed to an MS1 Asst AM's job in the West Country.   Later I was sounded out for an MS4 AM's job which I wasn't over keen on as it was a Transmark post which turned out to be in Iran but fortunately Transmark didn't get the contract although I'd already said I wasn't too keen on it. as the country seemed a bit unstable to me.  So some years later - it's hard to leave a really good job in a nice part of the country  - it was 4 years before I was put into an AM's job.

[NorthEndCab]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I too joined in 1966 but got on the MT scheme in 1971 (and on a higher rate than everybody else because I kept my former rate - as you too might well have done?).   I never finished the scheme as I was taken off and put in an Asst Area Manager's job at the start of 1973 because they needed somebody quickly and I was - so I was told - the best qualified person available and I had some previous ground level experience.   So I missed the last couple of months which were mainly things like the staff office but I learned far more about staff matters doing the job than I ever would have done sitting in an office.

 

Oddly because of the big reorganisation towards the end of 1973 (which made me redundant) plus Asst AM sickness in a couple of  places within 17/18  months I had been in a Grade D Asst AM's job and then spent several months covering long term sickness in two others (which were both shortly to be abolished)  before I was appointed to an MS1 Asst AM's job in the West Country.   Later I was sounded out for an MS4 AM's job which I wasn't over keen on as it was a Transmark post which turned out to be in Iran but fortunately Transmark didn't get the contract although I'd already said I wasn't too keen on it. as the country seemed a bit unstable to me.  So some years later - it's hard to leave a really good job in a nice part of the country  - it was 4 years before I was put into an AM's job.

 

I’ve heard that BR management training was genuinely world class?

 

Didn’t LNER (and presumably other) companies management trainees have to do time in everywhere from a signal box to control to the erecting shops?

 

Apropos of nothing, my “Non Technical,” Driver Manager was managing a branch of a bakery until 18 months ago. 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, NorthEndCab said:

 

I’ve heard that BR management training was genuinely world class?

 

Didn’t LNER (and presumably other) companies management trainees have to do time in everywhere from a signal box to control to the erecting shops?

 

Apropos of nothing, my “Non Technical,” Driver Manager was managing a branch of a bakery until 18 months ago. 

The BR Management Training Scheme was basically an updated re=working of the old LNER Traffic Apprentice scheme.  the BR scheme was at one time called the Traffic Management Training Scheme to distinguish it from various engineering traing schemes it was .  in the late 1960s it was 2 year scheme (as I believe the LNER scheme had been) but by the 1971 intake it had been reduced to 18 months - which I don't think lost anything.  

 

I had along discussion about the scheme with Hugh Jenkins - at that time Training Officer at the BRB - during 1972 when he contacted a number of current trainees to seek their views about the scheme and any ways in which it could be changed and generally the view of most people, especially staff entrants, was positive.  And it was indeed highly rated as a training scheme especially for graduates as an ideal starting entry to an industry and in soem respects that gave BR a strong hand when selecting graduate entrants.

 

Staff entry was limited in numbers, fewer than 10% of any year's intake, and there was an upper age limit of something around 26 or so.  Staff entrants had to take a written exam set by the Royal Society of Arts (it was officially rated as 'higher than A level) and you had to pass that before going to the interview stage but I don't know if the marks you achieved above 'pass' made any real difference although I was told that I had scored the highest mark, over 80%,in the year I sat that exam).  The next stage was an overnight interview starting around lunch time on the first day and finishing at lunch time the following day with a whole series of interviews with different senior BR people in between plus dinner in the evening (and breakfast of course.  The year I was interviewed - for the 1971 intake - the interviews were held at the WR, exGWR, dining car training school near Windsor so the food was probably a pretty good consolation prize if you didn't get on the scheme.   If you were selected as a staff entrant you remained on your own Region (I think t might have been possible to apply for another Region - not sure) but you had no choice about where you were sent and which Divisional Office you were attached to.  Graduate entrants were given a choice of Region and a choice of which Division they would be attached to but if there was no vacancy that year at the Division they chose they were sent to another one instead.

 

Overall it was a ptrrtty enjoyable time although for me it occasionally got a bit less interesting as it wasn't much use learning about things I could already do.  During my passenger station training I spent a couple of weeks in the booking office at Pontypridd with a very pleasant booking clerk called Joe who went to enormous pains to explain everything to me.  come the big day he asked me to come in for the start of early turn and try my hand at the window but he warned me that it could get busy and he'd step in if I had any problems.  So come the morning peak next day i took over the window from him with about half-a-dozen people in the queue - took me a matter of minutes to deal with them gaining much adulation from Joe about how well I'd grasped what was involved.  Once the rush had gone aIthough it was time to tell Joe how when I'd relieved in one booking office in the past it was nothing for me to take over £1,000 through the window in a couple of hours in the morning peak - he was a nice bloke and took it in good heart so for the rest of my time there we split the shift between us and did the weekly book-up and end of week accounts between us as well which saved him a lot of work.

 

Didn't always happen like that of course and I'd definitely never before been involved in sorting out a damaged Class 47 lifeguard as I did during part of my time at Margam depot.  But the training also involved residential courses - mainly at Derby but also at Harrogate (the BR Work Study School) and the WR training school at Westbury.  Plus project work at regular intervals some of which were quite involved plus time with Sealink (mainly spent on trips on ships at sea),  the Catering Division (mainly concentrating on hotel lunches - eating thereof -and the economics of sandwich making), and Freightliner - a week based at a terminal, I chose Stratford because it enabled me to travel from home (which was nowhere near Cardiff my official base).

 

At the end if you were suitable you were given some sort of supervisory job and I was fairly lucky to drop straight into an Asst Area Manager's job where I was the only a asst Am and which was actually a promotion for me.  Some others went into slightly lower graded jobs or had jobs with much less responsibility (and interest) but what I did stood me in good stead as I was promoted the following year.

[caradoc]

I applied, as a Sixth Form school leaver, to join a BR Traffic Management scheme in 1978. I made it through the first stage, an interview at York (a nice day out from Oxford on a free ticket from BR) and attended the second stage, an overnight assessment at a college on the Finchley Road, London. However BR somehow decided not to select me ! A decision which in hindsight was probably the right thing. I therefore joined BR as a trainee CO1 instead, and retired 38 years later after an enjoyable and rewarding career (and I did make it to Management Grade, eventually !)

 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, caradoc said:

I applied, as a Sixth Form school leaver, to join a BR Traffic Management scheme in 1978. I made it through the first stage, an interview at York (a nice day out from Oxford on a free ticket from BR) and attended the second stage, an overnight assessment at a college on the Finchley Road, London. However BR somehow decided not to select me ! A decision which in hindsight was probably the right thing. I therefore joined BR as a trainee CO1 instead, and retired 38 years later after an enjoyable and rewarding career (and I did make it to Management Grade, eventually !)

 

The scheme for school levers with A Levels was the railway Studentship Scheme - a sort of mini-management training scheme but concentrating a lot more on the nuts & bolts of jobs.  I don't know when it was ended or if the name changed but the biggest problem with it was getting a post at the end of it because you weren't necessarily automatically put into a job as happened with the Management Training Scheme although you were usually 'looked after' to some extent.

 

The big advantage for BR was that you came off the scheme with some good basic job abilities and I was effectively used as Divisional Relief Clerk (after the Relief had officially been disbanded!) for a while as I waited for suitable job to come up (which didn't take too long).  But having got a nice day job in operations I was still being used by various areas as a relief clerk - which at times meant I was covering three jobs in a day.  And  booking a nicely remunerative 16 hours with a suitable chunk of it at nicely enhanced rates - I didn't bother with Sundays because I was making enough working Monday - Friday and very occasional Saturdays (and by then I was heavily involved at Pendon as well).

[Wheatley]

I failed selection for the MTS as a staff entrant in 1992, but the two day stay in The Grove was entertaining, not least because it was the night of the general election and several very senior BR managers stayed up late shouting at the telly as the results came in !

 

I don't remember the studentship scheme, by the time I started we had the Railway Training Scheme which was effectively YTS but better paid as I think we made up the difference between the government allowance and whatever junior railman's rate was called by then. Some of those were excellent, Northern still has a cohort of managers and other grades who started off as RTS trainees. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Wheatley

[Fat Controller]

At Easter 1972, as someone who was in the Lower 6th, My careers teacher at school entered me for a BR course at Webb House, Crewe. I was accepted, and spent a very pleasant week going around all sorts of installations, from Stoke panel box to the Up side Control Cabin at Toton Yard. I was on what might be termed an Operations initiation; there was a parallel course for the Technical side. There were perhaps ten to a dozen on each course. There was no pressure to sign up, though they did send us letters asking for our opinions on the course; a novelty in those days. I was issued with a 'First Class' travel warrant, which caused amusement to the station staff at Llanelli, and expressions of (feigned, I hope) horror from Mr White, the Area Manager.

I never did go for a job with BR, but in 1995 joined Eurotunnel, which I must have enjoyed, as I recently retired after 25 years there.

[caradoc]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The scheme for school levers with A Levels was the railway Studentship Scheme - a sort of mini-management training scheme but concentrating a lot more on the nuts & bolts of jobs.  

 

The scheme was indeed the Railway Traffic Studentship Training Scheme. I checked in the loft and found I still have the 'Dear John' rejection letter from BR ! I also still remember the summer morning it came through the letterbox and the disappointment I felt, but it led me to join BR two months later instead of going to University and as previously mentioned, a 38 year railway career resulted.

 

[18B]

On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 15:25, Dunsignalling said:

Only if both units are being used to carry passengers.

 

Some years back, the Looe branch trains consisted of two 55xxx Bubblecars, one locked out and used only to provide additional brake force/adhesion. 

 

John

 

"some years back"... blimey that's going back over quarter of a century ago, and is a very specific and rare example of couple units and very much the exception to prove the rule.