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Bristol Airport - Filton


pwilson
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Many things annoy a Bristolian about being from Bristol!  A fine opportunity would have been for Bristol airport to have been situated at Filton in north Bristol where it would have shared the site with BAE systems.  The Henbury Loop line / Filton to Avonmouth double track line runs right alongside the southern length of the runway and a station complex could have been built to serve the airport.  North Filton platform still exists south of the runway (built in 1926 to replace 1910's Filton Halt) and was closed in 1986. It could have been the site for a potential airport station complex but may have needed to be extended for lengthier trains or relocated to allow for transfer facilities into the airport complex.

 

The airport terminal(s) themselves would most likely have been built on the land north of the runway which is now housing estates etc as the land south of the railway line is all utilisied by BAE systems and Airbus.

 

East of the potential station, the line splits into 3 with the main line travelling east to Bristol Parkway at Stoke Gifford Junction whilst northerly link joins the Bristol to Wales line at Patchway junction and a southerly link joins at Filton Junction.

 

Had the airport been built, would mainline train have run to the station using the 3 links from Wales, Parkway and the South West (requiring reversing) or would a shuttle service have run from Parkway to the airport station?  Or would it have been a mix of the two?

 

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So right. A big missed opportunity for the South West and Wales.

 

Lulsgate is a rubbish location for an airport. Poor road access and high crosswinds.

 

Before the runway was extended and the A38 diverted, there was, I am told, a service station close to the runway end. There was a notable incident where a jet aircraft actually managed to knock over some of the pumps.

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Actually did a project when at school about this subject, it was a complete no brainer, only issue was noise in and around Filton for night / early morning flights and the location of the actual terminal buildings related to the existing (at the time road network early to mid 1980's).

 

Stay safe everyone.

 

Neil

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Railways apart - I live some 10 miles from Cardiff "International" Airport - owned and operated by the Welsh Assembly Government, on behalf of the people of Wales.

.

However, when one considers (i)  destinations served (ii)  number of airlines, and frequency of flights, (iii) ease of access  (iv)  comparative  cost of flights from Cardiff & Bristol, (v) cost of parking at both locations................Many South Walians will tell you Bristol (Lulsgate) currently wins hands down over the white elephant that is Rhoose.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Neils WRX said:

Actually did a project when at school about this subject, it was a complete no brainer, only issue was noise in and around Filton for night / early morning flights and the location of the actual terminal buildings related to the existing (at the time road network early to mid 1980's).

 

Stay safe everyone.

 

Neil

One of the best features of Filton is that westerly take-offs don't involve much flying over houses at all. At least they would not have done back then before so much development around Severn Beach.

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1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

One of the best features of Filton is that westerly take-offs don't involve much flying over houses at all. At least they would not have done back then before so much development around Severn Beach.

Conversely, landings would have rattled the windows in leafy Winterbourne. 

The problem always was that Filton was uncomfortably close to some affluent (and articulate) suburbs of North Bristol, that were well equipped to argue for the airport to be exiled to rural North Somerset.

 

1 hour ago, br2975 said:

However, when one considers (i)  destinations served (ii)  number of airlines, and frequency of flights, (iii) ease of access  (iv)  comparative  cost of flights from Cardiff & Bristol, (v) cost of parking at both locations................Many South Walians will tell you Bristol (Lulsgate) currently wins hands down over the white elephant that is Rhoose.

I am amazed that the Welsh Government has managed to make parking more expensive than Bristol; that is quite a challenge! 

When Bristol City Council sold the airport off in the late 1990s, it was handling about 750,000 passengers a year. It is currently owned by the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund, which has increased the traffic by more than tenfold (pre-Covid). The growth has been achieved by heavy dependence on the low cost airlines - with the range of destinations that you mention. A new MD at Bristol is alleged to have announced that he was going to increase the landing fees for the low costs - and immediately received a reply from Mr RyanAir reminding him that the airline could relocate as easily as it had arrived. It all went quiet. I am not sure that Government ownership facilitates that kind of agility. 

Best wishes 

Eric   

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I heard Lulsgate doesn't make any money from landing fees, but makes all its profit out of car parking/transport fees.

 

Back to Filton, the land was worth more as housing land. No one has commented on the post office sorting centre that looks just like a departure lounge!

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2 hours ago, br2975 said:

Railways apart - I live some 10 miles from Cardiff "International" Airport - owned and operated by the Welsh Assembly Government, on behalf of the people of Wales.

.

However, when one considers (i)  destinations served (ii)  number of airlines, and frequency of flights, (iii) ease of access  (iv)  comparative  cost of flights from Cardiff & Bristol, (v) cost of parking at both locations................Many South Walians will tell you Bristol (Lulsgate) currently wins hands down over the white elephant that is Rhoose.

 

 

 

I had to commute Glasgow - Swansea . Covids put a stop to that at moment , but I came to the same conclusion . The problem for me was that Glasgow - Cardiff was the dreadful FlyMayBe who were never on time , could be 3-5 hours late easily, so you could never guarantee making meetings or getting home on time . I came to the conclusion that easyJet through Lulsgate was much more reliable (although usually an hour late on way back). The only problem was that the road system round Lulsgate was dire , particularly in summer  frequently taking an hour to do the last three miles .  So a station at Filton would have been a real benefit to me and for folks accessing South Wales .

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2 minutes ago, Tim V said:

I heard Lulsgate doesn't make any money from landing fees, but makes all its profit out of car parking/transport fees.

 

You forgot duty free, getting the punters ratted before they board and retail therapy opportunities as other substantial earners. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

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17 minutes ago, burgundy said:

You forgot duty free, getting the punters ratted before they board and retail therapy opportunities as other substantial earners. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

I think those are franchises ...

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2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

One of the best features of Filton is that westerly take-offs don't involve much flying over houses at all. At least they would not have done back then before so much development around Severn Beach.

You wouldn't even need very high power for take-offs- we happen to know the runway is long enough to accept Concorde!! If any coherent planning was to occur anywhere in the Bristol region it would confuse the natives and arouse deep suspicion.

 

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No, no, no. As a Cardiffian I'm rooting for my home airport. Lulsgate is poorly placed regarding road and rail infrastructure - whereas poor old Rhoose has a station at one end of a disused runway (there is an opportunity to create a short spur into the airport itself from the Porthkerry viaduct). I don't know how or why the consortium that previously owned Rhoose let opportunities slip by .............. even the (as was then) modern terminal has been reduced to two-thirds of it's original size.

 

What I do know there was a report, possibly a Government White Paper, issued a number of years ago (before Bristol was expanded) that more or less wanted to concentrate aircraft movements closer to London (as ever the UK being 'London') and the use of Cardiff was kicked into touch.

 

The only thing that was going for Cardiff was that BA have their engine shed (this is a railway forum, no?) at the airport, the biggest shed in the UK (so I am told). However, given Covid, I wonder if there will be further use for this engineering base as the fleet of 747s that were maintained there, are now parked up at the airport awaiting their fate - presumably facing the great runway in the sky.

 

So boo, hiss to Bristol. Seriously though, such is the way of things and it may well be that with Covid things will change and possibly not for the better.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: Back to OPs proposal, I suspect Filton was too close to what is now the outskirts of Bristol and especially as Concorde was built there, I expect many of the populace said 'thanks, but no thanks' and hence airport at Lulsgate which was always the route to Paris from Cardiff via Lulsgate and Hurn (in the times of Cambrian and BEA).

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55 minutes ago, Philou said:

 

 

PS: Back to OPs proposal, I suspect Filton was too close to what is now the outskirts of Bristol and especially as Concorde was built there, I expect many of the populace said 'thanks, but no thanks' and hence airport at Lulsgate which was always the route to Paris from Cardiff via Lulsgate and Hurn (in the times of Cambrian and BEA).

 

Sometimes, it does not matter if an airport is quite close to housing. It is the direction of the runway that matters so that aircraft are not taking off over housing. As pointed out, Filton had a very long runway, so many aircraft would be at height already before passing over any houses.

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1 hour ago, Tim V said:

I think those are franchises ...

Tim

I am sure that you are right. So are the taxis. But the airport can set the terms on which they trade and will certainly take their cut. 

Basically, the business model is set to make the flight ticket as cheap as possible, with as many other revenue earners as possible to cover the costs. 

A year or two back, there was a suggestion that the devolved assemblies might be allowed to set their own levels of Air Passenger Duty. Bristol lobbied hard against it. 

Best wishes 

Eric

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When I was living in Scotland, I used to fly from Edinburgh to Rhoose every other weekend to see my daughter and I found getting to and from the airport to Cardiff city centre a real pain.  I gave up after a few flights, so then started flying into Lulsgate and found that equally awkward, so I decided to fly into Southampton and found I could walk from train to plane without fuss.  Even though the train journey was longer than from either Cardiff or Bristol but better than hanging around for buses etc.

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3 hours ago, br2975 said:

Many South Walians will tell you Bristol (Lulsgate) currently wins hands down over the white elephant that is Rhoose.

 

 

Unless you have to access it by public transport, in which case you are looking at something like a 2¼ hour journey, assuming clear traffic, from Cardiff and not including the time you take getting to Cardiff.  Heathrow is competitive, as is Birmingham.

 

I have long thought that a civil airport at Filton could achieve the closure of the Lulsgate and Rhoose white elephants.  Filton is at a major crossroads of the rail and motorway networks and as well a the West Country and South Wales business would be viable as a diversionary airport for the big London and Midlands hubs.  The runway is long enough to take a Brabazon never mind a Concorde, and low power low noise take offs are possible for all current civil aircraft with full fuel loads. 

 

I would love to join Philou in embiggening Rhoose's role, but the money has never been available for the airport spur from Porthkerry and the truth is it's in the wrong place.  The 2 major stumbling blocks are the gradient required raise the railway to the terminal level and the expense of building a bridge for the airport bypass Rhoose road to cross it, or accept an unacceptable level crossing.  Rhoose was not built as a passenger airfield, it was built to house Spits and Hurricanes to defend Bristol.  It is not in a suitable location for access from the population centres of South Wales, despite widening of 5 Mile Lane and the unclassified road from Peterstone Super Ely to the A48; there are constantly shelved plans to widen country lanes from M4 J34 southwards.  One can imagine the uproar this will cause amongst the Vale set, who are very much the operators of the Levers Of Power here.  

 

Lulsgate has similar location problems, and is nowhere near any railway or motorway access.  Like the road journey from Cardiff to Rhoose, it is beset by congenstion, low speed limits, traffic lights, and roundabouts (sometimes at the same time).  Bristolian enterprise has been better for developing traffic than local council/WAG support for Rhoose, but neither airport makes a profit out of the air traffic business; they are fine as coffee bars and retail outlets...  Both originate from the days when aerodromes were planned on the basis that the terminal buildings were in the centre of the city they served, not at the airport; you checked in at the terminal in the city centre, and the airline provided a bus to take you and your luggage to the airport where you went straight to customs and departure.  Arrivals were whisked (!) back to the city centre on the bus.  Your car was left at home; the huge airport car parks were never foreseen or planned for.  BEA and BOAC were still running these buses from Victoria Terminal to Heathrow and Gatwick in the 60s.  

 

Remember the building above Astey's by the bus station, Phillipe; this was Cambrian and BEA's terminal, Cambrian acting as agents for Aer Lingus, KLM, Air France, and the others.  The terminal desks at Rhoose, in what is now the flying club building, were very small and basic even considering the traffic levels of the time.  The odd man out was Dan Air, to the extent that at Rhoose there was a sign directing passengers to 'Toilets and Dan Air'.

 

It is perhaps a shame that Cardiff Council never managed to get to grips with the drainage at Pengam, which might have been extended southeastwards on to the foreshore where Tremorfa Steelworks and the scrap compounds are now.  A Liberator once took off from here during the war; that must have been something to behold!  

 

14 minutes ago, burgundy said:

Bristol lobbied hard against it. 

Bristol lobbies hard.  it is better at lobbying than the WAG or any of the South Walian authorities involved previous to the WAG's existence.  They have the dark and sinister backroom experience of those inveterate fixers/slave traders/pirate sponsorers the Merchant Venturers, with 7 centuries of wheeler dealing over the sherry under their belts, to draw on. The MV association knows where the bodies are buried, and how to dig them up, and has done for a long time; the fact that they are still in (charitable status!) business shows how good they are at this.  Mind, we supplied a few of the pirates...

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2 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

When I was living in Scotland, I used to fly from Edinburgh to Rhoose every other weekend to see my daughter and I found getting to and from the airport to Cardiff city centre a real pain.  I gave up after a few flights, so then started flying into Lulsgate and found that equally awkward, so I decided to fly into Southampton and found I could walk from train to plane without fuss.  Even though the train journey was longer than from either Cardiff or Bristol but better than hanging around for buses etc.

Pretty much sums it up; you could have done the same from Birmingham, and probably saved time if the connections were good. 

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6 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

So right. A big missed opportunity for the South West and Wales.

 

Lulsgate is a rubbish location for an airport. Poor road access and high crosswinds.

 

Before the runway was extended and the A38 diverted, there was, I am told, a service station close to the runway end. There was a notable incident where a jet aircraft actually managed to knock over some of the pumps.

 

I'm not sure crosswinds are the reason why Lulsgate has problems due to location. After all its runway is 26/08 which tends to be in the general area for prevailing winds. 

 

The main problem is its 600ft elevation and low cloud from the Bristol Channel producing extensive fog over the hills in that area during humid airmasses. In fact, I was told that it was used deliberately during WW2 for training pilots in take off/landings for poor cloud/visibility conditions. 

 

Filton looks ideal on maps, but there are a number of relatively marginal Westminster seats in the area; and the majority of the public said 'no thanks'. It would not have helped that the runway was in South Gloucestershire; and given the arguments that the City Of Bristol had with North Somerset over the Long Ashton Park & Ride, it is probably best for everyone in the area that Filton was abandoned to housing. 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

 

Filton looks ideal on maps, but there are a number of relatively marginal Westminster seats in the area; and the majority of the public said 'no thanks'. It would not have helped that the runway was in South Gloucestershire; and given the arguments that the City Of Bristol had with North Somerset over the Long Ashton Park & Ride, it is probably best for everyone in the area that Filton was abandoned to housing. 

 

 

 

Hardly an insurmountable problem (compared to big hills or other landscape issues)  - back in the 1960s the Government redrew the boundaries so as to make Gatwick part of West Sussex (it was previously just in Surrey).

 

At the time however it was also planned to move the adjacent town of Horley into Sssex too (the area telephone codes being allocated on that basis) - but the residets of the Staunchly Conservative Horley strongly objected to being lumped in with the Labour voting 'new Town' of Crawley. Ever since Horley has struggled to make its voice heard within the local and county council, with many sub optimal decisions made over the years. Returning a 'Blue' MP is scant compensation....

 

With regard to Filton, not for the first time do I feel those in charge of the Government (of all hues) have let Bristol / South Wles down by not having the courage to plan for the long term and resist the whinging of certain sections of the electorate. To put it crudely, North Somerset is the place for posh houses - not airports while Filton with its excellent communications is the place for an airport and not houses!

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Seems like I’ve promoted a real discussion...I did have a question too though. 

 

Had the airport been built, would mainline train have run to the station using the 3 links from Wales, Parkway and the South West (requiring reversing) or would a shuttle service have run from Parkway to the airport station?  Or would it have been a mix of the two?

 

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When I lived just outside Weston-super-Mare, there was a proposal back in the early 70’s to extend the runway at the airfield and turn it into the main airport for the southwest.  Their main pitch was excellent transport links with the M5 being built and building a new station on the avoiding line giving a fast route by train to London with the HST’s coming on stream.  As usual it came to nothing.

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11 minutes ago, pwilson said:

Seems like I’ve promoted a real discussion...I did have a question too though. 

 

Had the airport been built, would mainline train have run to the station using the 3 links from Wales, Parkway and the South West (requiring reversing) or would a shuttle service have run from Parkway to the airport station?  Or would it have been a mix of the two?

 

There would have been very little point in doing it otherwise, Lulsgate and Rhoose being capable of handling the local flows they do handle.  A shuttle runs (mostly empty, the WAG pays for it, who cares?) from Rhoose station to the airport, for the purpose of the WAG being able to say that they provide a shuttle service for the 2 mile trip around the end of the runway to the airport to no purpose whatsoever.  Passengers want to get off their train, or park their car off a direct motorway link, and walk a short distance into the terminal; nobody's going to fall for the con of loading everything and the baby's rattle on to a bus at Filton terminal and then doing the same 20 odd roundabouts and traffic lights later at Stoke Gifford.  Some trains heading for Bristol will be diverted via Filton and the Avonmouth branch to and from Paddington and New Street, as will some South Wales-Bristol trains, when the airport is eventually built as common sense ultimately dictates.

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7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Before the runway was extended and the A38 diverted, there was, I am told, a service station close to the runway end. There was a notable incident where a jet aircraft actually managed to knock over some of the pumps.

The A38 wasn't diverted at Filton - it's just been dualled since the incident, which involved an Avro Vulcan. The petrol station, which moved to Patchway, became Runway Motors.

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Local politics... 

Most of the old Filton Aerodrome, and all of the runways, lies within what is now South Gloucestershire, previously Northavon (part of the County of Avon), and before that it was part of Gloucestershire itself. This area has always been separate from Bristol, but what were the Brabazon Hangars are within the Bristol City boundary.

Bristol City Council once owned Lulsgate Airport (within North Somerset), and BCC didn't want to lose business to a new Filton Airport if it happened.

Much of why Filton was not developed into an airport was political, with the different councils not agreeing on anything. Bristol wants to take over much of the built up area of South Gloucestershire, including the Aerodrome site, but SG and most of it's residents dont want it. Bristol didn't want an airport at Filton unless it had control of it, and if it went ahead but couldn't have control, it would lose business to Lulsgate. 

The two councils disagreed on where a proposed tram system (which would run through both council areas) terminated in the north, despite all options being within South Gloucestershire, so a new tram system was never built...

The councils disagreed on an out-of-town shopping centre in South Gloucestershire near Filton aerodrome (The Mall, locally aka as Cribbs Causeway), but SGC won, and it was built. BCC don't like the fact they don't control it, with the income it generates, and would like to take over that area.

So you can mostly thank the politicians...

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