Bristol Airport - Filton

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 hours ago, Coppercap said:

The A38 wasn't diverted at Filton - it's just been dualled since the incident, which involved an Avro Vulcan. The petrol station, which moved to Patchway, became Runway Motors.

The petrol station incident that I was told about was at Lulsgate.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 hours ago, pwilson said:

Seems like I’ve promoted a real discussion...I did have a question too though. 

 

Had the airport been built, would mainline train have run to the station using the 3 links from Wales, Parkway and the South West (requiring reversing) or would a shuttle service have run from Parkway to the airport station?  Or would it have been a mix of the two?

 

 

If the decision had been taken back when it should have been, Parkway Station would not even have been in existence.

 

As railway enthusiasts, it's attractive to think of a station at the airport with a mix of services reversing there as well as local through trains running via Avonmouth.

 

Realistically, the best option would probably have been a shuttle from Parkway, not rail but something more like the monorail type systems at Birmingham and Gatwick.

[Zomboid]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A shuttle runs (mostly empty, the WAG pays for it, who cares?) from Rhoose station to the airport, for the purpose of the WAG being able to say that they provide a shuttle service for the 2 mile trip around the end of the runway to the airport to no purpose whatsoever.  Passengers want to get off their train, or park their car off a direct motorway link, and walk a short distance into the terminal; nobody's going to fall for the con of loading everything and the baby's rattle on to a bus at Filton terminal and then doing the same 20 odd roundabouts and traffic lights later at Stoke Gifford

The bus from Luton airport parkway to the airport itself seems to work pretty well on the few occasions that I've used it. Though the 35 pace interchange at Southampton is far preferable.

 

If Cardiff airport had flights that people wanted to use then I bet the bus from the station would do reasonable business.

[Edwin_m]

1 minute ago, Zomboid said:

The bus from Luton airport parkway to the airport itself seems to work pretty well on the few occasions that I've used it. Though the 35 pace interchange at Southampton is far preferable.

There's another Birmingham-type shuttle under construction at Luton - the authorities there obviously consider it's worth spending hundreds of millions to get rid of that bus.  

[Zomboid]

A non-road solution is obviously better, but the bus was fine. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess Luton is a lot busier then Cardiff or Bristol, which can justify such things more easily.

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

A non-road solution is obviously better, but the bus was fine. I don't know the numbers but I'd guess Luton is a lot busier then Cardiff or Bristol, which can justify such things more easily.

 

I have just looked up Cardiff and surprised by the lack of flights from there. Covid probably has something to do with that but perhaps Rhoose will only ever get busy if the Welsh Government encourages the establishment of a Welsh national airline. Plenty of cheap aircraft available at the moment.

 

In "normal" times, I doubt if passenger numbers/flights from Bristol are that far behind Luton. The plans for expansion at Lulsgate include a tram/light railway from the City Centre. That should, in turn, help to get a light rail network for the rest of Bristol, something that should have happened long ago.

[burgundy]

3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

In "normal" times, I doubt if passenger numbers/flights from Bristol are that far behind Luton. The plans for expansion at Lulsgate include a tram/light railway from the City Centre. That should, in turn, help to get a light rail network for the rest of Bristol, something that should have happened long ago.

The recent planning application, which North Somerset Council rejected, was for an expansion to increase capacity from 10 to 12 million passengers per year. I think the actual numbers in 2019 were about 9 million. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Coppercap]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

The petrol station incident that I was told about was at Lulsgate.

 

I don't recall a petrol station being on the A38 right near the end of the runway at Lulsgate, but there was certainly one on the A38 at the end of the runway at Filton which in 1960 was wrecked by a Vulcan's jet blast.

[Coppercap]

25 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

The plans for expansion at Lulsgate include a tram/light railway from the City Centre. That should, in turn, help to get a light rail network for the rest of Bristol, something that should have happened long ago.

Bristol has argued about trams/light rail for decades - it's just never going to happen.

[jonny777]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have just looked up Cardiff and surprised by the lack of flights from there. Covid probably has something to do with that but perhaps Rhoose will only ever get busy if the Welsh Government encourages the establishment of a Welsh national airline. Plenty of cheap aircraft available at the moment.

 

 

 

Yes, something went very wrong there years ago, and they lost most of their holiday flights. When I worked there in the 1980s it was slowly increasing traffic at the expense of Lulsgate, mainly due to the large terminal facilities which Bristol did not have at the time. 

 

I was quite shocked when an ex-work colleague told me how few flights there were in more recent times. I suspect that the trend to economy no-frills airlines (Easyjet, Ryanair, etc) had run up against high landing charges with stubborn airport management and just went elsewhere, but I don't know for certain. 

 

A story which made me smile (in a schadenfreude way) was my next door neighbour who, back in those days, was bragging to everyone about a dirt cheap holiday he had booked from Bristol Airport. I thought 'is he deliberately trying to do me out of a job?' and was not impressed at all, especially because we lived about 800 yards from the end of Cardiff's runway.  Anyway, nothing would shut him up about the bargain he had, so he and family flew off to Lanzarote for a couple of weeks. However, on the return journey, Lulsgate was fogbound due to persistent low cloud and the flight diverted to Cardiff with coaches to take everyone across the Severn Bridge. His family could have walked home, but I think they called a taxi because of the luggage; but he had to go by coach, (at less than a mile from his front door), all the way to Bristol Airport because his car was in the car park there, and then drive all the way back. 

 

We never heard anything of that holiday from him again.

 

 

[jonny777]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

perhaps Rhoose will only ever get busy if the Welsh Government encourages the establishment of a Welsh national airline. 

 

 

 

 

A Welsh national airline? Do you mean like Air Cymru? 

 

I think they stretched to 7 aircraft at their peak, but then called in the receivers. 

 

 

Here are some of their aircraft in 1985. Two 1-11s and a 737-200. 

 

 

 

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Coppercap said:

 

I don't recall a petrol station being on the A38 right near the end of the runway at Lulsgate, but there was certainly one on the A38 at the end of the runway at Filton which in 1960 was wrecked by a Vulcan's jet blast.

Might it have been a bit more recent than the '60s, when the Vulcan 'Olympus' test bed was based at Filton? This was flying from at least 1976, and probably earlier. You used to feel it approaching before you saw it; I worked at a chemical plant in Avonmouth, and remember items being shaken off the store's shelves with the vibration. If this was what the residents of Filton and the surrounding area knew of aircraft noise, then no wonder they were against airport expansion.

[Coppercap]

3 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Might it have been a bit more recent than the '60s, when the Vulcan 'Olympus' test bed was based at Filton? This was flying from at least 1976, and probably earlier. You used to feel it approaching before you saw it; I worked at a chemical plant in Avonmouth, and remember items being shaken off the store's shelves with the vibration. If this was what the residents of Filton and the surrounding area knew of aircraft noise, then no wonder they were against airport expansion.

It's documented as being in 1960.  It was mentioned in the Bristol Post in their "Bristol Times" archive pages just a few weeks ago too. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Coppercap

[Fat Controller]

26 minutes ago, Coppercap said:

It's documented as being in 1960.  It was mentioned in the Bristol Post in their "Bristol Times" archive pages just a few weeks ago too. 

So pre-Olympus.

 

[Coppercap]

Filton, pre-Vulcan.

[Satan's Goldfish]

10 minutes ago, Coppercap said:

Filton, pre-Vulcan.

 

Having worked on/at a couple of airfields during this latest century, that picture just looks all levels of wrong! Was definitely a different time back then.

 

 

On the subject of rail access to airport terminals, a good example of how to do it right would be Zurich. If I remember rightly, an existing rail line was diverted to run it directly under the terminal (the original route still exists for freight to bypass the station), and rather than it being just for a shuttle to the nearest major station it serves destinations all over Switzerland. I'm not familiar with the area around Filton, but if the imagined station is the Southside of the runway and the imagined passenger terminal is to the north, would there be an option there to reroute the rail line under the terminal instead and make it even more convenient for passengers?

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

1 hour ago, jonny777 said:

 

A Welsh national airline? Do you mean like Air Cymru? 

 

I think they stretched to 7 aircraft at their peak, but then called in the receivers. 

 

 

Here are some of their aircraft in 1985. Two 1-11s and a 737-200. 

 

 

 

Anyone else read "Welsh national airline" and reminded of this...

 

Or was it just me?

O

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Coppercap said:

 

I don't recall a petrol station being on the A38 right near the end of the runway at Lulsgate, but there was certainly one on the A38 at the end of the runway at Filton which in 1960 was wrecked by a Vulcan's jet blast.

 

I was living in Bristol in 1977 when this story about the Lulsgate petrol station was recounted to me. And I think that he event in question would have been in the 60s. But possible that the person who told me got his airfields confused as he was not a native Bristolian. Graham lived at Churchill so he did know the Lulsgate stretch of the A38 very well.

 

Edit:

Just looked up Lulsgate in the 70s on old-maps.co.uk. Can confirm that Graham was wrong about his airfield.

Amazing to see how small the passenger facilities were then (although I suspect the OS map is a bit out of date as to revision).

Facilities were so lacking at Lulsgate, one wonders why they felt the need to move from Whitchurch.

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell
Add

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Coppercap said:

Bristol has argued about trams/light rail for decades - it's just never going to happen.

 

I can certainly agree with you about the "argument". One might even say that it has never even reached that level.

 

I don't think that it never happening can be an option in a city with one of the worst vehicle pollution levels in Europe (and dreadful traffic congestion across the whole conurbation). It has to happen. But how and when?

[Joseph_Pestell]

28 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

I'm not familiar with the area around Filton, but if the imagined station is the Southside of the runway and the imagined passenger terminal is to the north, would there be an option there to reroute the rail line under the terminal instead and make it even more convenient for passengers?

 

Off to a good start to build a tunnel with the mainline to Wales already well below ground level.

[RJS1977]

A lot would depend on where the terminal(s) were built. There are four possible locations:

 

1) On the Royal Mail/Aerospace Bristol site. Not a lot of room, but handily located for Patchway station (perhaps with a 'monorail' link like Bristol or Gatwick) so can take passengers from existing through trains to London/Swansea. Also well placed for the A38 for traffic from the city centre, not so well placed for the M5 or Severn Crossings.

 

2) On the Brabazon Hangar/industrial estate/golf course south of the Avonmouth line - convenient for the A38, but would require train passengers to change at Parkway. Also would require aircraft to cross the Avonmouth line on the level, which would be awkward with both an increased number of train and aircraft movements. Again, badly placed for the motorways.

 

3) To the south of the west end of the runway - plenty of space, well connected to M5 (and a spur could be built across from the M49 for South Wales traffic). Again rail would require passengers to change at Parkway, but a station would also be handy for people living in Henbury.

 

4) On the site of the Vue cinema north of the runway. Easily accessible from the motorways, not so easily accessible either by rail or from the city centre.

Edited August 15, 2020 by RJS1977
Found fourth potential site

[Edwin_m]

The fact of the matter is that a medium-sized regional airport is going to struggle to justify a dedicated train service.  Even a short DMU has a similar capacity to a 737, and from somewhere like Bristol the surface origins/destinations of air passengers will be scattered widely across the West Country and South Wales.  So to fill such a DMU every hour on each of the four main lines radiating from Bristol would need it to have a flight every 15min or so, and all those air passengers would need to choose the train.  Clearly the actual numbers would have to be much higher in reality, and those flights would have to be timed during the railway operating day as there would probably be no trains to get people to the airport in time for early flights or away from it after late evening ones.  

 

Most airports are where they are because they were built for military purposes, or were being developed at a time when planners saw the car as the surface transport of the future, so ease of connecting by train wasn't usually considered.  I'm not sure if the railway was a factor in Gatwick being selected as a major airport, but it may have been one of the few that came into commercial use before the car became so dominant in people's thinking.  Either way Gatwick found itself alongside a railway with services to a wide range of places, and has benefitted from this.  Birmingham put itself in the same position by building a shuttle and Luton is doing the same. 

 

Heathrow is the exception as it is so much busier than any other British airport, and the proximity to London means a disproportionate amount of surface access is in that direction.  Hence the Piccadilly and Heathrow Express, but rail links in other directions haven't exactly had a smooth path to completion. 

 

The only other airport that has in part established its "own" trains is Manchester, which has nearly three times the passenger numbers of Bristol and is located in a region with higher population density.  The other factors at play here were the relative ease of building a rail link and the geography of the rail network which made it fairly easy to extend various services that would otherwise terminate in the city centre.  In fact had a station not been built at the airport, similar facilities would have been needed in the centre instead.  Filton would have a tick in the first of those two boxes but not the second.  Airport services are a major contributor to rail congestion in Manchester, many are relatively empty on that leg and some argue they should be cut back.  I suspect the same would apply even more at Filton with its lower passenger numbers.  

 

Many airports are trying to reduce the proportion of surface access by car, although for most this means cheap "soft" measures and deterrents rather than spending serious money on alternatives - let alone relocating the airport itself to be alongside a railway.  There is an argument that a move to a lower-carbon economy will encourage more serious alternatives, but the same factors could also result in less air travel and therefore make it more difficult to justify rail access to airports.  

Edited August 15, 2020 by Edwin_m

[Coppercap]

2 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

A lot would depend on where the terminal(s) were built. There are four possible locations:

 

1) On the Royal Mail/Aerospace Bristol site. Not a lot of room, but handily located for Patchway station (perhaps with a 'monorail' link like Bristol or Gatwick) so can take passengers from existing through trains to London/Swansea. Also well placed for the A38 for traffic from the city centre, not so well placed for the M5 or Severn Crossings.

 

2) On the Brabazon Hangar/industrial estate/golf course south of the Avonmouth line - convenient for the A38, but would require train passengers to change at Parkway. Also would require aircraft to cross the Avonmouth line on the level, which would be awkward with both an increased number of train and aircraft movements. Again, badly placed for the motorways.

 

3) To the south of the west end of the runway - plenty of space, well connected to M5 (and a spur could be built across from the M49 for South Wales traffic). Again rail would require passengers to change at Parkway, but a station would also be handy for people living in Henbury.

 

4) On the site of the Vue cinema north of the runway. Easily accessible from the motorways, not so easily accessible either by rail or from the city centre.

All speculation of what could be done is now completely irrelevant, as the whole airfield site has been sold for development. In a few years time it will be covered in a lot of new housing.

I'll be able to say "I can remember when all this was once a working airfield!"

[RJS1977]

4 minutes ago, Coppercap said:

All speculation of what could be done is now completely irrelevant, as the whole airfield site has been sold for development. In a few years time it will be covered in a lot of new housing.

I'll be able to say "I can remember when all this was once a working airfield!"

 

My understanding of the thread was that the OP was looking to design a 'what if' layout based on a fictional Filton Airport station. Clearly the location of that station and the design of it would depend on where the terminals were located. So I wasn't so much suggesting building an airport at Filton now as how a 'might have been' layout based on such an airport might look.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The bus from Luton airport parkway to the airport itself seems to work pretty well on the few occasions that I've used it. Though the 35 pace interchange at Southampton is far preferable.

 

If Cardiff airport had flights that people wanted to use then I bet the bus from the station would do reasonable business.

All glory to the Hypnotoad, Zomboid.  The basic problem with the Rhoose Station-CWL terminal entrance shuttlebus is that it is a political boxtick, and everybody knows this.  If you are going to fly from Rhoose and use public transport, a direct bus runs from Central Cardiff in about the same time as going by train via Rhoose Station, and, obviously, saves a luggage handling operation.  For incoming passengers, I imagine they get aboard whichever bus happens to turn up at the bus stop outside the Terminal, especially if it's raining!  

 

Rhoose Station is of some use to those who have through train services to it and don't have to lug luggage about changing trains,  The current through service is Bridgend-Radyr, and given the alternatives from the Cardiff direction, you have to assess what is the passenger demand from Bridgend; Llantwit Major customers are going to take the bus or taxi it.  Tbh, so are most Bridgendians.  The Maesteg branch trains run SWML as of course does the Swansea/West Wales traffic.  

 

CWL is in an ideal location for an airfield from a flying perspective, flat land, sea on one end of the runway, but hopelessly located from a passenger's pov.  The road connection to Cardiff, or northward towards the valleys, or westwards, is pathetically slow, and the railway is the wrong side of the airport.  Road connection to Cardiff could be upgraded by a new road leading from the Barry Link Road roundabout on Colcot road 2 miles in a dead straight line to Leckwith roundabout in Cardiff, but this would require a tunnel beneath Leckwith Woods and pass through land owned by some very influential people in South Wales, and is thus never going to be built.  If you must have a Welsh International Airport, the place to build it is on the Gwent Levels or reclaimed land on the foreshore, but the ideal location IMHO is Filton.

 

My old dad, an inveterate conspiracy theorist and Bristol hater, claimed that what was needed was a direct shuttle service from Rhoose to Heathrow, and had the Fairey Rotodyne earmarked as the a/c for it.  He was convinced that the Bristol Merchant Venturers, who of course promoted Lulsgate, were behind the failure of his idea to materialise.  This was in pre-M4 days when it took over 5 hours to drive to London from Cardiff, A48/A40. largely one lane each way.  He also pointed out that most scheduled flights from Rhoose called at Lulsgate, even some flying north!

 

The MV Cabal, as he called it, were also behind the building of the first Severn Bridge, which enabled the area to the north of Bristol to develop exponentially as a location for distribution centres serving South Wales, adding to the economic woes of the area, and in this he is backed up to some extent by facts.  

Edited August 15, 2020 by The Johnster