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Stonehaven derailment


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Absolute tragedy and thoughts to all involved.  This forum isn't really the place for speculation but I will say I've not seen a mk3 set either hauled or HST come off so badly in an accident 

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8 minutes ago, RP82 said:

Not wanting to come across as insensitive in this sad incident, is the MK3 bodyshell still as rigid/strong as before the sliding door mods?

The vestibule ends look intact on all the coaches, lets leave it to the experts to establish what forces were at play on various parts of the train when the incident occurred and they will make an assessment of what risks exist if any to fix on the structural integrity.

 

If you want to know more about what can happen to a Mk3 in an accident look up the Southall accident, these coaches are strong but not invincible.

Edited by woodenhead
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10 minutes ago, RP82 said:

is the MK3 bodyshell still as rigid/strong as before the sliding door mods?

 

The very definition of speculation. I've asked nicely, now I'll just lock it.

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Thanks to Jeff Mcghie for providing further information - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/passenger-train-derailment-near-carmont-aberdeenshire

 

As this is an ongoing investigation I do not propose re-opening the topic.

 

Quote

We are currently collecting evidence needed to identify factors relevant to the cause of the accident and its consequences. The scope of the investigation is likely to include:

the sequence of events and the actions of those involved

the operating procedures applied

the management of earthworks and drainage in this area, including recent inspections and risk assessments

the general management of earthworks and drainage and associated procedures designed to manage the risk of extreme weather events

the behaviour of the train during, and following the derailment

the consequences of the derailment and a review of the damage caused to the rolling stock

underlying management factors

actions taken in response to previous safety recommendations

We will publish our findings, including any recommendations to improve safety, at the conclusion of our investigation. This report will be available on our website.

 

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Interim report - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/915898/resilience-of-rail-infrastructure-interim-report.pdf

 

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Emerging findings from the investigations suggest that a significant contributing factor to the derailment was heavy rainfall washing material onto the track. Therefore, this report commissioned by the Secretary of State for Transport seeks to provide an initial review of the resilience of rail infrastructure, in particular in the context of severe weather. Because of the nature of events that led to the derailment at Carmont, the report focuses on the resilience of earthworks and drainage infrastructure to heavy rainfall.

 

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  • RMweb Gold
10 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

Thank you for the links Martin.  As so often I sometimes wonder where some of the lessons we learnt years ago about the potential impact of both bad weather and a heavy Control Office workload have gone to when I see  a Report like thi?.  it appears that the Control did not have the presence of any widely experienced senior 'On Call' operations management from either the infrastructure owner or operator;- I'm told that is actually standard NR procedure according to people currently working in Control offices, no senior management turn out for major events such as this.

 

The workload in Control offices at the times of major incidents, including severe weather, rapidly becomes huge with a large number of balls in the air at once and it needs someone who can stand back from the hurly burly and make decisions about things like blanket speed restrictions.

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Yes thanks for the links, interesting reports.

There seems to be little investigation/explanation into why the drain was not built as designed, perhaps because Carillion are no more?

Also as a Driver of many years I can honestly say that airbags or seat belts would've given me very little comfort when thinking about derailments/collisions, and in fact I think seat belts would be a hindrance in many occasions.

Edited by 101
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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 it appears that the Control did not have the presence of any widely experienced senior 'On Call' operations management from either the infrastructure owner or operator

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The workload in Control offices at the times of major incidents, including severe weather, rapidly becomes huge with a large number of balls in the air at once and it needs someone who can stand back from the hurly burly and make decisions about things like blanket speed restrictions.

 

Having worked, until 2016, in one of the roles mentioned in the RAIB report, I will not add much, other than to say that the 7 staff on night shift in Network Rail Scotland Control were dealing with around 30 incidents, one of which, the washaway of the line near Polmont due to a canal breach, was on its own a major event requiring a huge amount of Control time. Control staffing has been regarded by some (but not all) senior managers as an expensive luxury, given that staff are relatively well paid and, if the railway is running well, do not have a lot to do, hopefully the tragic accident at Stonehaven will change that attitude. 

 

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2 hours ago, 101 said:

 

There seems to be little investigation/explanation into why the drain was not built as designed, perhaps because Carillion are no more?

 

I would hope that's not the case.  All accident reports include a boilerplate intro that says they're not there to apportion blame, but to learn any relevant lessons in the hope of preventing a recurrence.

 

2 hours ago, 101 said:

Also as a Driver of many years I can honestly say that airbags or seat belts would've given me very little comfort when thinking about derailments/collisions, and in fact I think seat belts would be a hindrance in many occasions.

 

I agree but they're only suggesting the question be looked at - not that these should necessarily be adopted.  I can't help thinking that there are situations where they'd help but others in which your best chance could well be to jump, and you don't want to be delayed if that arises.  Statistically it may well be that on balance seat belts may be justified, I really don't know, so it seems reasonable to advocate a formal evaluation.  Drivers may see that as unduly restrictive, just as motorists resisted when it was first suggested for cars - but I think there is now general acceptance as being safer for road traffic.

 

Just a matter of time till somebody says we should tie the passengers into their seats too of course, like an airliner.  If I understand the report correctly, it seems the conductor who died was in the crumple zone of the carriage at the time, but I don't see how he could do his job unless he's free to move about the train.

 

In the case of air bags in the cab, I would have thought there may be a stronger case to be made - if they're triggered it's obviously too late to decide to jump and they might well reduce injuries.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I would hope that's not the case.  All accident reports include a boilerplate intro that says they're not there to apportion blame, but to learn any relevant lessons in the hope of preventing a recurrence.

 

 

I agree but they're only suggesting the question be looked at - not that these should necessarily be adopted.  I can't help thinking that there are situations where they'd help but others in which your best chance could well be to jump, and you don't want to be delayed if that arises.  Statistically it may well be that on balance seat belts may be justified, I really don't know, so it seems reasonable to advocate a formal evaluation.  Drivers may see that as unduly restrictive, just as motorists resisted when it was first suggested for cars - but I think there is now general acceptance as being safer for road traffic.

 

Just a matter of time till somebody says we should tie the passengers into their seats too of course, like an airliner.  If I understand the report correctly, it seems the conductor who died was in the crumple zone of the carriage at the time, but I don't see how he could do his job unless he's free to move about the train.

 

In the case of air bags in the cab, I would have thought there may be a stronger case to be made - if they're triggered it's obviously too late to decide to jump and they might well reduce injuries.

 

 

The question of passenger seatbelts on trains came to considerable prominence (perhaps only locally) following the Ufton Crossing collision where the father of a deceased passenger set off a considerable campaign - it came to nought.  I seem to recall it was dismmised on very obvious practical grounds plus the huge cost for very limited return.  And alas the Driver who was killed in that incident in an horrific manner ( by the nose end of the HST digging into ballast) would have not been protected at all by anything less than very solid armour plate over the cab window.  Drivers have in the past been saved by being able to leave their seat quickly before a collision occurs and a seat belt is in my view going to be an encumbrance in that respect.

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On a driver only train especially those operated by older stock, the driver would have to take the seat belt off at every station to carry out his station duties. I can think of one route where there are about 30 stations on a one hour journey. So having to take the seat belt on and off every two minutes how long would the seatbelt last before it became defective. Also it would cause a small delay at every station which would soon build up into a bigger delay.

It would not be the same as a car where you get in put the seat belt on and leave it on until the end of your journey.

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2 hours ago, arran said:

HI All

 

Does the report say what the drainage was changed from in the plans to how it was done ? 
 

Yes it mentions Carillion changed the upper section from the plan and no evidence was found that they informed the design company or NR to assess the change. 

 

2 hours ago, arran said:

and why that would have charged the outcome .

 

Regards Arran

 

That is not certain but it states it’s likely it wouldn’t have washed out. Basically the revision directed more water into the drain overloading it. 
 

P90

113 In summary, RAIB has concluded that the washout on 12 August 2020 occurred because a bund running across the slope, perpendicular to the railway, had concentrated flows into gully 1 to the extent that the capacity of the drain was exceeded and the gravel in the steeply sloped section of the drainage trench was washed out onto the track below.

Edited by PaulRhB
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