Last Claud D16s into Oxford from Cambridge

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

Could anyone give me a specific year - and, hopefully a specific month or date - that any Claud D16 ran into Oxford (from Cambridge)?

 

Or can anyone say for sure that any were seen there in 1959?

 

All I can find at present is the generic term 'late 50s'.

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

 

 

[slilley]

Yeadon's Register Part 14 on the Clauds, has a picture of 62613 in lined BR black with later totem at Cambridge in 1960. It was withdrawn on 25 October that year, the last of the class and allocated to March.

[chris p bacon]

I have a copy of some spotting notes for Potton that lists the last D16's as 62544 & 62588 in 1957.

[Nearholmer]

The implication of the question is that they were used on Cambridge-Oxford Trains. Is that so?

 

It had never occurred to me that Ex-LNER locos were used on that route.

[31A]

They were indeed, after Nationalisation.  Several ER classes from Cambridge depot worked over it.

[Steamport Southport]

Also B12s and B17s I believe.

 

I think it was later an Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 working.

 

 

 

Jason

[31A]

3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Also B12s and B17s I believe.

 

I think it was later an Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 working.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Interesting; I don't think I've heard of B17s but I suppose no reason why not.  Have seen pictures of K3s.

 

[Steamport Southport]

The reason I put "believe". It's something I've read but can't recall where.

 

I know they worked to the Western from the GC. But that's not really relevant here.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[chris p bacon]

11 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 and B17s I believe.

 

I think it was later an Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 working.

 

I've not heard or seen any evidence of those working over the line.

 

For 1958 the classes over the line were D16 4-4-0,  4MT (2-6-4T)  1x 5MT 2-6-0 (Crab), Black fives, 8F's, B1, J19, J20, J39, Standard 5Mt, Standard 4Mt (2-6-0 & 2-6-4T), 4F, K3 & J17.

In 1959 the Standards took over from the earlier locomotives but by 1960 the service was nearly all DMU.

Edited August 15, 2020 by chris p bacon
Edit fo correction.

[Nearholmer]

Which of these ex-LNER locos got beyond Bletchley? I’m Struggling to picture in my head a J39 at Winslow, for instance?

[BMacdermott]

Hello Nearholmer

 

In his book, Oxford to Cambridge Railway (Part 1 - Oxford-Bletchley), Bill Simpson notes that K3, B12 and D16 were regular visitors to Oxford. 

 

He goes onto say (page 134) that when an Ipswich-Cardiff freight (via Cambridge and Bletchley) was introduced in 1956, it was hauled by a K3 or J39 to Yarnton Junction. We can't expect to find many photos, as the train was due Yarnton Junction at 1.30am - and how the loco returned is not detailed.

 

Laurence Waters book, Rail Centres: Oxford, shows B12 No.61546 at Oxford on an Oxford-Cambridge train dated 23 April 1959 - but whether that date is reliable is uncertain as another books give a withdrawal date of just a month later.

 

No doubt the late (and great) local railwayman, Bob Berry, would have known the answers to all these questions!

 

Brian

[pH]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Which of these ex-LNER locos got beyond Bletchley? I’m Struggling to picture in my head a J39 at Winslow, for instance?

This site shows Eastern Region B1, K3, J39 and J20 engines (at least, from a quick scan) on Oxford shed in BR days:

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2015/06/oxford-1936-1966.html

[Nearholmer]

But, wouldn’t they have been more likely to have arrived via Banbury?

 

I’m deeply ill-informed about these things, having only in the past three or four years got interested in the history of the Cambridge - Oxford Line, so if it’s a daft question, feel free to say so!

[31A]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

But, wouldn’t they have been more likely to have arrived via Banbury?

 

I’m deeply ill-informed about these things, having only in the past three or four years got interested in the history of the Cambridge - Oxford Line, so if it’s a daft question, feel free to say so!

They are locos with 31A Cambridge allocations shown against them, so no, not via Banbury!

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

A friend has just informed me that according to the RCTS 'Greenie', Clauds first started running to Oxford in Dec 1950.  This ceased in Spring 1957 when they were replaced by B12/3s.

 

I'd still like to see any photos around that time if anyone can point a direction. I know Dick Riley took some in 1954, but that's too early for me.

 

Brian

[Nearholmer]

Many thanks. If a thing isn’t either electric, diesel, or southern, I’m quickly out of my depth, so getting my head round LNER loco classes is hard enough, let alone shed codes.

 

The thought that these locos chuffed along three miles from where I now live is taking some getting used to.

[1E BoY]

Bill Simpson's books two volumes published by OPC on the Oxford to Cambridge Railway (Vol 1 Oxford to Bletchley / Vol 2 Bletchley to Cambridge) includes two pictures of ER locomotives at Oxford and another at Bicester (London Road). The references below are from Volume 1.

 

D16 No. 62585 at Oxford on 27th February 1954. The caption tells us the locomotive is heading for the WR turntable having worked the 1316 arrival from Cambridge which will work the 1428 back home to Cambridge. (Page 139 photo credit R. C. Riley)

 

Whilst they do not answer the specific question by Brian they do confirm some of the postings above. These photographs show the use of ER locomotives on trains into Oxford.

 

K3 No. 61817 is seen passing Oxford North Junction with a train from Yarnton Sidings en-route for Cambridge. Dated 1st September 1959 picture was by J. D. Edwards (Page 43).

 

B12 No. 61516 crossing at Oxford North Junction with the 1428 to Cambridge. Caption says it was taken in 1957. The photograph is credited to The Late Dr Parkes Collection. (Page 141).

 

These books are in the local history section at Bletchley library (possibly others locally). My own copies were published in the early 1980s.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, excellent books and I’ve read both, but had my head into the early history, rather than loco types - time to read them again!

[Pannier Tank]

15 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I've not heard or seen any evidence of those working over the line.

 

For 1958 the classes over the line were D16 4-4-0,  4MT (2-6-4T)  1x 5MT 2-6-0 (Crab), Black fives, 8F's, B1, J19, J20, J39, Standard 5Mt, Standard 4Mt (2-6-0 & 2-6-4T), 4F, K3 & J17.

In 1959 the Standards took over from the earlier locomotives but by 1960 the service was nearly all DMU.

 

1E Bletchley had an allocation of Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0's 

 

43000 to 43006 - 1950 to 1953

 

43017, 43073, 43122 - 1964 to 1965

 

Both batches worked the Oxford to Cambridge Trains.

 

 

[1E BoY]

Checking the Middleton Press books on the line further photographic evidence comes to light of ER locomotives working over the line. 

 

In their Country Railway Series authors Vic Mitchell & Keith Smith cover the Oxford to Cambridge like Bill Simpson with two volumes (Oxford to Bletchley and Bletchley to Cambridge).

 

In Oxford to Bletchley, picture 22 shows D16/3 No. 62571 passing Oxford North Junction with a stopping train for Bletchley on 19th March 1952. Photo is credited to A. Ford / M. J. Stretton

 

In Bletchley to Cambridge, picture 3 shows B12 No. 61558 standing in Bletchley no. 2 platform with a through Cambridge to Oxford train (these normally worked in and out of platforms 7 and 8). To access No. 2 platform the train would have needed to have crossed the four main lines and reversed into No. 2 platform, so the caption may be wrong and it may be a local between Bletchley and Oxford with the loco on a filling in turn before heading back to its home territory. Photo is dated 14th March 1957 and credited to P. Q. Treloar.

 

Picture 98 in the Bletchley - Cambridge book shows an east bound freight on 28th September 1957 with B1 No. 61052 in charge. The caption refers to it working over Bletchley flyover and is credited to H. C. Casserley.

 

I will endeavour to check the A. E. Grigg books for further photographic evidence. Arthur Grigg (known as Sam) was a Bletchley footplateman and turned out a number of books on railways around Bletchley.

Edited August 15, 2020 by 1E BoY
Grammar

[1E BoY]

6 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

A friend has just informed me that according to the RCTS 'Greenie', Clauds first started running to Oxford in Dec 1950. 

 

The rationale behind this is that prior to nationalisation on 1st January 1948, the LNWR / LMS had its own depots at both Cambridge and Oxford (sub sheds of Bletchley of which there were several others) and therefore, locomotives in use on the 'Varsity Line' would have been from those companies. The LMS also moved other constituents locomotives around if they were suited for a particular duty or line, so former Midland Railway types were also seen.

 

Rationalisation was possible with nationalisation and any locomotives visiting either of the university cities could be attended to by visiting the main sheds if required. Hence the D16 in Bill Simpsons book going off to the xGWR shed at Oxford for turning. 

 

I believe xGWR steam locomotives were not used due to loading gauge issues but in my youth spent on the end of Bletchley station sitting on a parcels trolley with others the sight of a Hymek, Warship or Western became a regular occurence. Indeed, I remember seing the daily stone train working from the Oxford area passing Fenny Stratford most mornings with a Western opening up having descended the flyover with a full load of stone. This would have been around 1973 the train going via Bedford to the stone terminal at Leagrave on the Midland Main Line. 

 

This would explain the use of x LNER (ER) locomotives from 1950 off Cambridge shed (31A). Later BR Standard class locomotives were regulars until the end of steam at Bletchley in July 1965 along with former LMS types. 

 

Sadly had the question been asked 20 years ago I could have gone to many local footplatemen for the answers including two in my own family. Unfortunately that knowledge has passed with them.

 

There was certainly plenty of variety over the years!

[1E BoY]

I have checked three books by Bletchley driver A. E. Grigg and regret there are no further ER types to add.

 

For the record the books are

 

In Railway Service - history of the Bletchley Branch of the NUR. 

Town of Trains - Bletchley and the Oxbridge Line, Barracuda Books 1980

A Job For Life - Bletchley Man of Trains - Baron Birch 1993

[chris p bacon]

3 hours ago, 1E BoY said:

I believe xGWR steam locomotives were not used due to loading gauge issues

 

That was true, except that I have a copy of some spotting notes from 1950 till the end that show GWR locomotives being towed to Kings of Norwich. Admittedly they would have been travelling at a much lower speed so may not have been such a problem.

[Pannier Tank]

16 hours ago, 1E BoY said:

In Bletchley to Cambridge, picture 3 shows B12 No. 61558 standing in Bletchley no. 2 platform with a through Cambridge to Oxford train (these normally worked in and out of platforms 7 and 8). To access No. 2 platform the train would have needed to have crossed the four main lines and reversed into No. 2 platform, so the caption may be wrong and it may be a local between Bletchley and Oxford with the loco on a filling in turn before heading back to its home territory. Photo is dated 14th March 1957 and credited to P. Q. Treloar.

 

I would think this either:

 

(a) A previously "Failed" Locomotive being used on a Bletchley to Oxford Train  to work home with a Oxford to Cambridge Train.

 

(b) Having worked a through Cambridge to Oxford Train it worked a "Fill-in" Oxford to Bletchley to Oxford turn. Then returning home with a Oxford to Cambridge Train.