The K's kit that never was; A BR Cartic

[hayfield]

For years I have liked and collected K's kits, to the best of my knowledge I have a complete collection of both the 4 mm scale standard gauge wagon and coach kits (and perhaps all the 009 ones) that were retailed including the various versions which transitioned from whitemetal to plastic kits.  Example is the 6 wheel syphon, initially all whitemetal, then with a plastic body and a whitemetal underframe, lastly all plastic.

 

One day I noticed still wrapped up on eBay a plastic kit of a K's BR Cartic, sadly at the time I lost the bid to what I thought was silly money. One of my biggest regrets

 

Now I asked around and found out K's made these for a British Railways promotion and they were never sold to the general public. Since loosing the auction I have been on the look out for one. They may not be a great model but as a collection I knew my collection was incomplete. Then last week I noticed this one on eBay, thankfully it ended at a silly time (4pm on a Tuesday) and only one other bidder

 

 

OK its incomplete, as it is missing the middle bogie and buffer ends (if it had them at all). It certainly is kit built, not a RTR  or scratch built model, but then if it was designed to be a promotional giveaway I guess it had to resemble the item and built to a budget. No markings as to the make. Thankfully I never paid that much, £22.09 including postage. So nothing lost if its not what it was claimed to be, plus there are not many K's collectors

 

 

Now I need another bogie and I guess I should make an attempt to paint it and perhaps add a bit of extra detail (buffer beams?)

 

Any info about either the kit, the bogie or the prototype would be greatly appreciated

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by hayfield

[hayfield]

Just found this thread

 

 

[caradoc]

In the mid-70s I bought a Cartic-2 kit from the much-missed Railway Bookshop in Headington, Oxford; This would presumably have been the K's kit ? Sadly long gone now, of course (both the model and the shop !)

 

[BernardTPM]

By the mid-70s ther Tri-ang-Hornby version was around (1969 introduction), which was also a 'Cartic-2'. This version was re-run several times, last in 2008/9.

The K's version is mentioned in the June 1968 Railway Modeller 'Scrapbox' section, with a photograph of the display models: Peco concrete track (1 yard), T-H English Electric type 3 (blue Class 37), T-H Mk.1 CK and Sleeper in blue/grey and K's 'Cartic-2'. It says "this kit was specially commissioned by B.R. for the purpose; we are lucky enough to benefit from their enterprise."

The same display model is shown in the July 1968 Model Railway Constructor too (along with scale drawings of inners and outers), though from a different angle and it has oval buffers at the outer ends.

Both suggest the kit was actually sold to the public. Furthermore the kit was advertised for sale by H.A. Blunt (£1/4/10), Eames (£1/5/9) and W&H Models  (25/8 i.e. £1/5/8).

[hayfield]

Bernard

 

Thank you for the info, I have some oval buffers from that era, but may be a bit chunky for a wagon. 

 

If anyone has a copy of the article could you please scan it and PM me a copy, thanks

[CKPR]

Model Railway Constructor November 1968 (sorry, that should read 'model railway constructor november 68' )

[hayfield]

Thanks

 

This is the first time I have ever seen anything to do with the kit being supplied to the public from K's. The information I was given many years ago was that it was a promotional item for BR only. I now stand corrected and its an even more important item in my collection. Thank you

 

Does anyone have a spare bogie please

 

Did it originally have a buffer beam and buffers ?

[Fat Controller]

57 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Thanks

 

This is the first time I have ever seen anything to do with the kit being supplied to the public from K's. The information I was given many years ago was that it was a promotional item for BR only. I now stand corrected and its an even more important item in my collection. Thank you

 

Does anyone have a spare bogie please

 

Did it originally have a buffer beam and buffers ?

It did originally have buffer beams and buffers. Interestingly, in one of my collection of BR Data sheets, it mentions that the Cartic is currently a 4-unit wagon, but the possibility of 2 and 3 unit sets is being investigated.

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

This is the first time I have ever seen anything to do with the kit being supplied to the public from K's. The information I was given many years ago was that it was a promotional item for BR only. I now stand corrected and its an even more important item in my collection. Thank you

I had hoped to find that advert, confirming that those shops I mentioned weren't selling what might now be called 'vapourware'.

[roythebus]

I had/may still have mine. I bough them many years ago and tried modifying one of the end cars to make a centre car. I'm certain I've got a built up spare bogie somewhere.

 

Back in 1982-ish I got a bit of "industrial injury" money from BR (another story) and used the money to pay Ks (by that time in Banbury) to make a kit for the new VGA wagon in plastic. While I was at their factory I asked Melvin Keyser about the Cartic.

 

He told me the history of them which Hayfield details above and he showed me the original moulds I asked him about doing a run of them as there was a lot of interest there in the current "modern image" stock. The moulds were very basic being made from brass and not designed for a long life. He tried a couple of test mouldings for me but reckoned they were not worth proceeding with. I contacted Hornby about supplying their plastic Cartic bogies and they would have quite happily make a run if I wanted 5,000 of them.

 

But with the Ks moulds being beyond further use I decided not to proceed with that project and carried on with the VGA kit which sold about 5000 I think. I still have the receipt for the moulds somewhere.

 

I can't remember what buffers were used on the Ks Cartic, if I find mine I'll let you know. I've got 3 Black 5s in various stages of build, a Beyer-Peacock tank, an Adams Radial and a Q1 in bits if anyone's interested. Maybe a couple of LMS 2-6-4T locos too. I'm having to clear out a lot of part-built things.

[cctransuk]

I have a couple of the K's kits, bought with the original intention of converting one kit into centre cars and form an authentic Cartic-4. However, the centre cars are not a simple modification of the end cars, so I may end up with two rakes, each with scratchbuilt centre cars.

 

Many years ago, I bought from one of the Tri-ang Hornby spares specialists of the time, a considerable number of Cartic body mouldings and bogies - again with the intention of cutting & shutting a four car rake. For the same reason as mentioned above, this never happened and I must, when I get round to it, dispose of the Tri-ang Hornby bodies and bogies via Ebay.

 

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

The K's Cartic-2 kit, commissioned by BR, was for the the large demonstration model produced to promote the late 1960s proposal for a Channel Tunnel.

 

To haul the tunnel trains, I believe that the model used Trix AL1 locos.

 

I recall seeing an article on the model in the contemporary model railway press.

 

John Isherwood.

[Philou]

The father of a pal had sourced the plans at 4mm scale and made his up out of 40thou plasticard which was the then way to go for non-kit, non-RTR models. As it was in the late mid-60s, I have no recollection of what he used for bogies. Envious? Moi?

 

Cheers and good luck,

 

Philip

[Fat Controller]

25 minutes ago, Philou said:

The father of a pal had sourced the plans at 4mm scale and made his up out of 40thou plasticard which was the then way to go for non-kit, non-RTR models. As it was in the late mid-60s, I have no recollection of what he used for bogies. Envious? Moi?

 

Cheers and good luck,

 

Philip

Hornby 'Freightliner' ones? It's what Hornby themselves did, and what I did when extending my Hornby one to a 4-Car set.

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Hornby 'Freightliner' ones? It's what Hornby themselves did, and what I did when extending my Hornby one to a 4-Car set.

 

Were the Cartic and Freightliner bogies one and the same - with a twin pivot added for the Cartic articulated version?

 

John Isherwood.

[Fat Controller]

8 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Were the Cartic and Freightliner bogies one and the same - with a twin pivot added for the Cartic articulated version?

 

John Isherwood.

I believe they were, John, and reasonably accurate as well, which wasn't always the case.

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Were the Cartic and Freightliner bogies one and the same - with a twin pivot added for the Cartic articulated version?

 

John Isherwood.

John

Certainly look similar https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e11e9c62a    and   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/matcartic4/e5ca1ef86

 

I'll admit I am surprised that a good modern model of the Cartics hasn't been produced. Numerous with numerous liveries, various late conversions and long lives. Plenty of play appeal and could  be imagined as operating to almost any yard with a temporary loading facility  https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp 

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=cartic

 

Paul

Edited August 18, 2020 by hmrspaul

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, roythebus said:

I had/may still have mine. I bough them many years ago and tried modifying one of the end cars to make a centre car. I'm certain I've got a built up spare bogie somewhere.

 

Back in 1982-ish I got a bit of "industrial injury" money from BR (another story) and used the money to pay Ks (by that time in Banbury) to make a kit for the new VGA wagon in plastic. While I was at their factory I asked Melvin Keyser about the Cartic.

 

He told me the history of them which Hayfield details above and he showed me the original moulds I asked him about doing a run of them as there was a lot of interest there in the current "modern image" stock. The moulds were very basic being made from brass and not designed for a long life. He tried a couple of test mouldings for me but reckoned they were not worth proceeding with. I contacted Hornby about supplying their plastic Cartic bogies and they would have quite happily make a run if I wanted 5,000 of them.

 

But with the Ks moulds being beyond further use I decided not to proceed with that project and carried on with the VGA kit which sold about 5000 I think. I still have the receipt for the moulds somewhere.

 

I can't remember what buffers were used on the Ks Cartic, if I find mine I'll let you know. I've got 3 Black 5s in various stages of build, a Beyer-Peacock tank, an Adams Radial and a Q1 in bits if anyone's interested. Maybe a couple of LMS 2-6-4T locos too. I'm having to clear out a lot of part-built things.

 

Roy I would happily buy the bogie from you if its spare and the dimensions of the buffer beam would be useful,please let me know when you plan to sell the Beyer Peacock tank, I might be interested

 

Thanks

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

John

Certainly look similar https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e11e9c62a    and   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/matcartic4/e5ca1ef86

 

I'll admit I am surprised that a good modern model of the Cartics hasn't been produced. Numerous with numerous liveries, various late conversions and long lives. Plenty of play appeal and could  be imagined as operating to almost any yard with a temporary loading facility  https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp 

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=cartic

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

Thanks for pointing me to those two photos - much appreciated.

 

It is particularly interesting to see the vacuum and air pipes fixed to the bogie frame, with flexible connections to the bodies. That'll be 'interesting' to reproduce in model form!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Were the Cartic and Freightliner bogies one and the same - with a twin pivot added for the Cartic articulated version?

 

John Isherwood.

The Tri-ang Cartic centre bogie is a standard Freightliner bogie.

 

The coupling for the two outer wagons Is a simple loop.

 

The centre bogie has a bolster that clips into the pivot hole on the bogie, with two pins, one each side, to fit the loops.

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

Here is my Cartic-4 that I built from an as yet stalled project to produce a kit / scratch building aid. The wagons are built from laser cut plastic and I had them made up at York Modelmaking about eighteen months ago. For bogies, @TangoOscarMike had some 3d printed up by Shapeways, I'm sure that he would assist you should you want some.

 

I was just about to restart the project in March but the lock-down and a lack of spare money put pay to that. There are minor detail alterations to the kit to be made and I also needed a source for etched brass for the handrails, ladders and gratings.

 

 

 

 

 

Gibbo.

[roythebus]

Yes the Triang model used standard Freightliner bogies.

 

Re vacuum brakes, were the Cartics ever dual braked? As far as I'm aware they were through piped for vacuum but not fitted. There doesn't appear to be room under them for a vacuum brake cylinder. You can certainly see air tanks under them in Paul Bartlett's photos. The vac pipes visible on the end have the metal pipes painted white indicating a through pipe.

 

when I built my Ks Cartic back in the day I used a very fine chain for the safety rails which is what they were on the prototype. Where I worked in a model and toy shop very fine chain was available for ship models. I may still have some of that around as well!

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by roythebus

[roythebus]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Roy I would happily buy the bogie from you if its spare and the dimensions of the buffer beam would be useful,please let me know when you plan to sell the Beyer Peacock tank, I might be interested

 

Thanks

Than't fine John, I'll let you know when I find them. I'm certain the bogie is somewhere close to hand. I've seen it in the last few months.

[Fat Controller]

11 hours ago, roythebus said:

Yes the Triang model used standard Freightliner bogies.

 

Re vacuum brakes, were the Cartics ever dual braked? As far as I'm aware they were through piped for vacuum but not fitted. There doesn't appear to be room under them for a vacuum brake cylinder. You can certainly see air tanks under them in Paul Bartlett's photos. The vac pipes visible on the end have the metal pipes painted white indicating a through pipe.

 

when I built my Ks Cartic back in the day I used a very fine chain for the safety rails which is what they were on the prototype. Where I worked in a model and toy shop very fine chain was available for ship models. I may still have some of that around as well!

 

I've never seen any references for vacuum brakes on a Cartic; I'm not sure I've even seen vac-pipes. Incidentally, the last examples in service, operated by STVA, had the upper deck removed, allowing them to carry higher vehicles to be carried; they were used for a brief while on the 'Land-Rover' trains through the Channel Tunnel. Here's a link to some photos of them on Ford traffic:-

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/P-Tops-codes/PJA-STVA-Cartic-4-single-level/

 

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

The caption on this photo would suggest no vacuum brake on the cartic

https://flic.kr/p/axQNw4

 

Cheers

 

Paul