I need help with my GWR track plan

[AdamInTheAttic]

I ordered that book yesterday so hopefully that’ll help too. 

[AdamInTheAttic]

OK so I had a little of a shuffle and I've removed the dpuble slip and replaced it with 2 medium electrofrogs. The other end of the station I will likely shorten slightly and run a larger radius curve instead of the set track. At the moment I'm going to concentrate on the station area and work on each section at a time. My brain will fry otherwise 

 

 

On 17/08/2020 at 12:28, TonyMay said:

 

[RJS1977]

The snag with the arrangement as shown in the first photo is you can't run out of the goods yard on to the main line, you can only come in.

[AdamInTheAttic]

12 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

The snag with the arrangement as shown in the first photo is you can't run out of the goods yard on to the main line, you can only come in.

I see what you mean. I can move the points around so that's possible. I'll have a crack later today. 

[TonyMay]

Not sure about GWR practice completely, but we're getting back to avoiding facing points again.  Typically a goods yard in this position would be accessed from what is your outer track, with a single slip (or maybe a plain crossover) where it crosses the other line - not a double slip because that would introduce a route through a facing point into the goods yard.:

 

 

 

There is no way for a inner track train to access the goods yard directly; it would have to stop, run the loco round to the other end of the train using a pair of crossovers, draw the train back onto the outer line, and then propel the stock into the goods yard.

Edited August 19, 2020 by TonyMay

[AdamInTheAttic]

What I want is the inner circuit to be mostly goods. So in this configuration it should be able to go straight into the goods section or the left hand of the lower platform. 

 

 

On 17/08/2020 at 12:28, TonyMay said:

 

[TonyMay]

12 hours ago, AdamInTheAttic said:

What I want is the inner circuit to be mostly goods. So in this configuration it should be able to go straight into the goods section or the left hand of the lower platform. 

 

 

 

What you seem to be suggesting is two parallel single lines, one for passenger trains and one for freight.  But that's not how railways worked (or work).  For a double track line trains always travel on the left.  Freight trains, stopping passenger trains, and express trains all share the same track going one way, and then share the other track on their return journey.  A double track railway with an up-down arrangement (1) has more capacity than two parallel single lines and (2) is easier (i.e. cheaper) to signal.

 

With double track, facing points are generally avoided, partly because they are a safety risk, and partly because they are more expensive than trailing points because of the extra safety features required.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by TonyMay

[AdamInTheAttic]

So I just need to change the two top right points around so they are not facing. The other side they are not facing. 

Sorry for the confusion, you can tell I'm new to this! 

I'm basically trying to have it similar as shown in this diagram (as space allows). 

On 17/08/2020 at 12:28, TonyMay said:

 

[AdamInTheAttic]

15 hours ago, TonyMay said:

Not sure about GWR practice completely, but we're getting back to avoiding facing points again.  Typically a goods yard in this position would be accessed from what is your outer track, with a single slip (or maybe a plain crossover) where it crosses the other line - not a double slip because that would introduce a route through a facing point into the goods yard.:

 

 

 

There is no way for a inner track train to access the goods yard directly; it would have to stop, run the loco round to the other end of the train using a pair of crossovers, draw the train back onto the outer line, and then propel the stock into the goods yard.

You can't see it in the photo but there is another point to allow the inner line direct access. I've now removed the slip and exchanged it for 2 points. The first the right way around (I think). 

[Zomboid]

Direct access to a freight yard like this would have been pretty much unheard of. Trains would nearly always run past and reverse in.

 

Having a freight yard served by trains in one direction only was very common too, especially at a relatively small wayside station like this one.

[TonyMay]

3 hours ago, AdamInTheAttic said:

You can't see it in the photo but there is another point to allow the inner line direct access. I've now removed the slip and exchanged it for 2 points. The first the right way around (I think). 

 

Two points would generally not be prototypical because it introduces a facing route into the goods yard:

 

 

a single slip doesn't physically allow for this route

[TonyMay]

4 hours ago, AdamInTheAttic said:

So I just need to change the two top right points around so they are not facing. The other side they are not facing. 

Sorry for the confusion, you can tell I'm new to this! 

I'm basically trying to have it similar as shown in this diagram (as space allows). 

 

If you look at the right-hand side you can see the point marked SS - this indicates that it's a  single slip.  There are others on the plan marked DS (double slip), LL = long left, LR = long right.

[Chimer]

Facing and trailing points and goods yard access 101

 

1.  On a double track railway line in Great Britain trains generally run on the left.

 

2.  A point is "facing" if a train travelling in the right direction (see 1 above) towards the point is presented with diverging tracks, i.e. a choice of route (choice made previously by the signalman of course, not the driver).

 

3.  A point is "trailing" if a train travelling in the right direction (see 1 above) towards the point is on one of two tracks which converge.

 

4.  Facing points are avoided wherever possible.  They are obviously required at junctions where routes diverge; at through stations with alternative platforms for trains going in the same direction; at terminii where there is a choice of arrival platforms.  But they never (well hardly ever) exist where a mistakenly set point could send a passenger train at any speed into an area where it shouldn't go - like a goods yard or a locomotive depot.  Which is why you're being told that to get into a goods yard, a freight train passes the yard on the main line, then stops and reverses into the yard via a trailing point, though it is blindingly obvious that for a train with the yard on its left it would be easier to pull into a yard using a facing point, do its business and exit back onto the main line via a trailing point at the other end.

 

5.  For the same reason, getting a freight train off the main line to allow a passenger to overtake traditionally involved the freight stopping and reversing into a dead-end (lie-by or layby) siding rather than using a loop line which would have been easier operationally - and in more recent times, with advanced safety systems, such loops are sometimes allowed.

 

6.  To get into a goods yard from the main line further from the yard, the reversal involves crossing the nearer line.  This can be done using a simple diamond crossing, or a single slip which has the advantage of also creating a trailing crossover between the main lines, which is often a useful thing to have in a station throat for lots of reasons, including reversing and running round passenger trains.  Using a double slip, or three points as in some of the diagrams above, is not generally OK, as this would also provide facing access to the yard from the nearer line.

 

7.  Where facing points have to be used, there are complicated safety arrangements in place to make it impossible, amongst other things, to change the point under a passing train .... these are known as "facing point locks" or FPLs.

 

Hope this helps.  Took me absolutely ages to get my head round this ...... and people are going to say I've over-simplified, but hey .....

[melmerby]

If you do want a loco shed, this was the mid 20th century GWR style.

N.B. the shed was not accessed via the TT.

This is Leamington Spa 1923 (photo from Warwickshire Railways)

[melmerby]

15 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

 

5.  For the same reason, getting a freight train off the main line to allow a passenger to overtake traditionally involved the freight stopping and reversing into a dead-end (lie-by or layby) siding rather than using a loop line which would have been easier operationally - and in more recent times, with advanced safety systems, such loops are sometimes allowed.

 

7.  Where facing points have to be used, there are complicated safety arrangements in place to make it impossible, amongst other things, to change the point under a passing train .... these are known as "facing point locks" or FPLs.

 

Hope this helps.  Took me absolutely ages to get my head round this ...... and people are going to say I've over-simplified, but hey .....

Loops were more common than you might think.

I can recall several from the Semaphore era, without digging too deeply.

e.g. There was one at Acocks Green, a down goods loop running off the down slow.

1916 Map (again from Warwickshire Railways)

I can remember in the 1950s standing on the over bridge watching the trains approaching Birmingham and a freight would quite often pull into the loop to await it's turn.

This was a busy line and I assume the time taken to use a lie back was unacceptable, especially in rush hour. Hence a full loop.

Time was probably a factor when deciding whether to provide a loop or lie back.

 

[RJS1977]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

If you do want a loco shed, this was the mid 20th century GWR style.

N.B. the shed was not accessed via the TT.

This is Leamington Spa 1923 (photo from Warwickshire Railways)

 

Aberystwyth was very similar, albeit with a 2-road shed.

 

However the turntable was taken out prior to WW2 and replaced by a triangle as it was too small for Manors to turn on.

[AdamInTheAttic]

Thanks everyone for the assistance. It's getting clearer slowly. It's certainly a mine field. 

[melmerby]

Plenty of inspiration in such books as RH Clark/C Potts Historical Survey of selected GWR stations.

Edited August 20, 2020 by melmerby

[AdamInTheAttic]

OK so now I think I'm getting it. My latest attempt should be about right. Now I know I have 2 double slips where there shouldn't be (on the right) but for the added functionality compared to cost I'd rather just have it. I've also got rid of the triple points, and please ignore the fact that the lines look straight, I'll be having some curvature to go with the scenery I plan. 

 

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, AdamInTheAttic said:

OK so now I think I'm getting it. My latest attempt should be about right. Now I know I have 2 double slips where there shouldn't be (on the right) but for the added functionality compared to cost I'd rather just have it. I've also got rid of the triple points, and please ignore the fact that the lines look straight, I'll be having some curvature to go with the scenery I plan. 

 

 

 

 

If the double slip is as you enter the station, don't worry too much about it.

There was one on the main line as you entered Birmingham Snow Hill station from the south.

I've done the same thing as space savers.

[TonyMay]

On 21/08/2020 at 05:46, AdamInTheAttic said:

OK so now I think I'm getting it. My latest attempt should be about right. Now I know I have 2 double slips where there shouldn't be (on the right) but for the added functionality compared to cost I'd rather just have it. I've also got rid of the triple points, and please ignore the fact that the lines look straight, I'll be having some curvature to go with the scenery I plan. 

 

 

 

It's about right, but if you were to go to a local model shop and offer to swap a brand new Peco OO double slip for a brand new Peco OO single slip, they'd probably agree to it.  It gives you a little more variety in trackwork with 2 double slips in the yard.  Also, it means you can signal it properly.  All moves off the main line need to be signalled.  In the case of a single slip, that means a signal with two arms for reversing moves (1) into the yard and (2) back down the mainline (your clockwise line).  If you use a double slip, then you also need another signal to signal the facing move off the clockwise line into the yard - which of course wouldn't be there in real life.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, TonyMay said:

 

 

It's about right, but if you were to go to a local model shop and offer to swap a brand new Peco OO double slip for a brand new Peco OO single slip, they'd probably agree to it.  It gives you a little more variety in trackwork with 2 double slips in the yard.  Also, it means you can signal it properly.  All moves off the main line need to be signalled.  In the case of a single slip, that means a signal with two arms for reversing moves (1) into the yard and (2) back down the mainline (your clockwise line).  If you use a double slip, then you also need another signal to signal the facing move off the clockwise line into the yard - which of course wouldn't be there in real life.

Good idea - running line double slips at ordinary through station were a great rarity in Britain and I can only immediately think of one example on a GWR double line relatively minor station.  The slow speed approaches to major stations were one thing but even then in some cases -  Birmingham Snow Hill for example - the were no double slips on the through running Main Llines although the west end of Cardiff General was an exception to this usual 'rule' in track layout design.

 

Addendum

Simon ('Flying Pig') has kindly reminded me about the running line double slips at the west (two) and east (one) ends of Southall station where numerous connections had to go into a fairly cramped space.  The two sets of connections in many ways duplicated each other and those at the west end were greatly simplified/removed sometime no later than the early-mid 1960s while the east end one survived until 1967 when a new 'ladder' running junction was put in.  But don't forget these were in a location where an awful lot of railway had to be crammed into a limited length - nothing like a normal smaller passing station where far more space was available.    (BTW space was in some respects available at Patney & Chitrton but the rapid divergenvce in levels of the two routes to the west of the station severely limited the room for connections between them plus there was the specialist nature of the military traffic to cater for.)

Edited August 24, 2020 by The Stationmaster
Addenum

[AdamInTheAttic]

Thanks for the responses again. I do believe that like most things in life it will have to be a compromise. I understand the use of a double slip is rare and a single slip is more prototypical, but for a model railway, the added benefit of the double outweighs it for me. 

I've ordered 3 this morning in electrofrog and shall begin building up the station area this week and weekend. I shall keep the progress of the build in my blog. 

Again thanks to everyone for their input. It has made my station area a lot better than my initial plan.

 

 

[melmerby]

22 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Good idea - running line double slips at ordinary through station were a great rarity in Britain and I can only immediately think of one example on a GWR double line relatively minor station.  The slow speed approaches to major stations were one thing but even then in some cases -  Birmingham Snow Hill for example - the were no double slips on the through running Main Llines although the west end of Cardiff General was an exception to this usual 'rule' in track layout design.

 

 

Hi Mike

There was at one time a double slip on the down main line as you left the tunnel entering  Birmingham Snow Hill, which allowed access to the platforms 1 & 5  from the through line.

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1167.htm

 

There were no others as far as I can see.

[AdamInTheAttic]

Melmerby, that link shows a fantastic looking track plan! If only my layout was wider!