Narrow Gauge Brake Coaches

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Having a tumblehome is quite deluxe for a 2ft gauge vehicle. 

 

Agree. You have to go up to 2'3" for that.

[BernardTPM]

36 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

TBH, to be realistic, if that rather than caricature is the intent, it probably needs to be longer, with more compartments, but I do like it.

 

Having a tumblehome is quite deluxe for a 2ft gauge vehicle.

The 4-wheeler is very close to three early NWNGR coaches by Ashbury. The main difference was that the outer two panels were plain panels not windows (the inner two were windows). They had tumblehome too, as did the near contemporary Ashbury  bogie Brake Composites. None have survived to the present, though a replica bogie coach is under way (in addition to a replica of the later Pickering version).

[wagonman]

On 22/08/2020 at 22:53, Compound2632 said:

 

But that's the whole point of a ducket. Was it the Great Western called them guard's ogees?

 

They (also) called them 'wings'.

[PatB]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

What an incredibly cute little carriage!

 

TBH, to be realistic, if that rather than caricature is the intent, it probably needs to be longer, with more compartments, but I do like it.

 

To me, it speaks of duckets, rather than a birdcage, and given that you are cutting with a laser, so can afford to do really fancy stuff, can I recommend a full "Stroudley style" end, with picture windows, for the brake van? That would make the interior visible, and at 1:35 you could fit it out.

 

Having a tumblehome is quite deluxe for a 2ft gauge vehicle. Brandbright have designed some very believable faux-Victorian laser cut coaches in 1:19, and theirs are straight-sided. http://www.brandbright.co.uk/index.php?cPath=12_14

It's actually based on a tiny 2 compartment vehicle illustrated in a book of drawings of WHR rolling stock and locos, bought 10 years ago on a visit to the railway. I've fudged the dimensions a bit to fit the Hornby brake van/4w coach chassis I happen to have, and raised the roof a tad, to give the 1:35 tourists a marginally more comfortable entry and exit. I might bring the height back down a little, though as, although I think a touch of caricature is fine for freelance NG, one doesn't want to overdo it. 

[PatB]

8 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

The 4-wheeler is very close to three early NWNGR coaches by Ashbury. The main difference was that the outer two panels were plain panels not windows (the inner two were windows). They had tumblehome too, as did the near contemporary Ashbury  bogie Brake Composites. None have survived to the present, though a replica bogie coach is under way (in addition to a replica of the later Pickering version).

I'm pretty sure those are the coaches I've used as inspiration. However, I'd like my small tourists to come back and spend more money, so I didn't want my vehicles too claustrophobic. Mind you, I'm also intending to draw up some unglazed "summer" coaches, all the better for that bracing North Sea air to whip through, so my line will, to some extent, be dependent on the inherent hardiness of North Eastern holidaymakers.

 

The idea is a preserved/tourist line in the early Talyllyn/Ffestiniog preservation era, but on the coast of what is now Northumberland. The line will, obviously, be somewhat impecunious and so will be using whatever stock can be found, with considerable variety in evidence. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by PatB

[Phil Traxson]

On 25/08/2020 at 16:46, BernardTPM said:

The 4-wheeler is very close to three early NWNGR coaches by Ashbury. The main difference was that the outer two panels were plain panels not windows (the inner two were windows). They had tumblehome too, as did the near contemporary Ashbury  bogie Brake Composites. None have survived to the present, though a replica bogie coach is under way (in addition to a replica of the later Pickering version).

And built previous to those, Festiniog Rly. bogie coaches 17,18,19 & 20 all have tumblehome and are known colloquially as "Bowsiders".

[Oldddudders]

On 24/08/2020 at 00:34, Chris116 said:

I can confirm that it is part of the Guards duties to observe signals as I am a Guard on the Mid Hants Railway and I also have an old BR rule book that says that the Guard should observe the signals. 

Until relatively recently, the guard of a train was in charge, period. The driver had primary observation of signals, obviously, but the guard was supposed to second-guess him, hence the scope to apply a brake if he felt the need. Only the decision to ask the guard to become a fare-checking conductor relieved him of the duty to watch signals. 

[jim.snowdon]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Until relatively recently, the guard of a train was in charge, period. The driver had primary observation of signals, obviously, but the guard was supposed to second-guess him, hence the scope to apply a brake if he felt the need. Only the decision to ask the guard to become a fare-checking conductor relieved him of the duty to watch signals. 

Nonetheless, at least on the Southern, such observance was, in my experience, non-existent even in the 1970s, long before guards had taken on the role of conductor. 

 

Jim

[DCB]

On 26/08/2020 at 01:10, PatB said:

I'm pretty sure those are the coaches I've used as inspiration. However, I'd like my small tourists to come back and spend more money, so I didn't want my vehicles too claustrophobic. Mind you, I'm also intending to draw up some unglazed "summer" coaches, all the better for that bracing North Sea air to whip through, so my line will, to some extent, be dependent on the inherent hardiness of North Eastern holidaymakers.

 

The idea is a preserved/tourist line in the early Talyllyn/Ffestiniog preservation era, but on the coast of what is now Northumberland. The line will, obviously, be somewhat impecunious and so will be using whatever stock can be found, with considerable variety in evidence. 

The Brecon Mountain Railway have a brake coach/ Caboose with a raised area of roof  US style. 

Even on the Standard Gauge birdcages fell from favour when carriage roofs became higher and the birdcages would have fouled the loading gauge if they had been made high enough for the guard to see over the coaches. I was reading about the Great Northern railway (English) and they abandoned Birdcages when they raised the coach roofs and stopped strapping luggage on low roofs. That was because the more modern coal not coke burning locos threw sparks and set the luggage on fire!  The provision of luggage compartments was another spin off and saw the end of 13 ton 50 seat coaches and an increase in train weights for the same capacity.

I think freelance N/G layouts look more believable when all stock is to a common loading gauge,  John Ahearn pushed this to the max on Madder Valley where he mixed scales but kept to a common gauge and loading gauge running Ffestiniog Prince with Standard gauge stock on the same track

 

[PatB]

Thanks once again to everyone who has contributed. Just to provide a bit of an update, I think I've had a moment of inspiration (or, possibly, delusion) about a method of construction which will allow me to create duckets with graceful curves but still with relatively simple cutting and self-jigging assembly. I have yet to finish the CAD and do a test cut though.

 

As far as loading gauge is concerned, I have to confess that these coaches are a bit of a guess. What looks about right is going to be dictated by the first (and possibly only) loco, which is to be a Smallbrook kit and which hasn't arrived yet. If the coach design turns out to tower above the loco cab, or extends excessively to either side, I'll have to do some trimming. Mind you, my favoured area of the Northumberland coast is relatively flat, and so the Bamburgh, Seahouses and Alnmouth Railway (or maybe Tramway, if I decide I can't resist some roadside running; I mean, you can even see the remains of some of the track bed in Street View ) would probably not need much in the way of overtrack structures to restrict the loading gauge.

[Northsider]

What scale are you working in? Admittedly 15mm/ft makes the curves gentler, but I've managed to create duckets: superglue the flat section first

then fix the curve bit by bit.

 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, but .......

 

Depending upon the design of the ducket (are yours IoMR ones with flat tops and lamps?), the curve radii can be a lot sharper than that, typically at the top, which is why, also in 15mm/ft, I resorted to other means.

[PatB]

I'm playing around with 1:35 scale, following an impulse purchase from Smallbrook Studios. As my limited resources dictate that I'll have to make nearly everything anyway, going for a minority (railway wise anyway) scale seemed to make sense. 

 

I'm trying out a construction method that keeps the bottom edges of the inner  sides and ends attached(but suitably scored for bending) to the floor. This should make it relatively easy to have the ducket sides split from the main sides, and curved around their own bulkheads for shape. I've just tried the technique on the non-brake coach and it builds nicely. Now to get the CAD done for the brake to see if the more complex construction required is within my abilities. 

[Northsider]

On 31/08/2020 at 21:15, Nearholmer said:

Yes, but .......

 

Depending upon the design of the ducket (are yours IoMR ones with flat tops and lamps?), the curve radii can be a lot sharper than that, typically at the top, which is why, also in 15mm/ft, I resorted to other means.

Yes, that's a Manx half brake. Do you mean yours have curved roofs? Not much will go round a radius that tight, except (thin) sheet metal, or thin strips of material filled and sanded back. What is your cunning plan?

[Nearholmer]

Yes, one of the ones I built had a very tight radius at the top, so I used a solid block for that part, planed (with a very useful tiny plane that I have) then sanded to shape in-situ. For the lower part, where the curves reverse but are much shallower, I used a series of very narrow horizontal planks, filled and sanded.

 

As a BTW, I moved from using plywood sheets to using a series of narrow boards for roofs too. I found that gave a very dependable curve and on rough old goods vans I didn’t fill and sand-back too finely, so that when the canvas was added (old good-quality bed sheet fixed by soaking dilute PVA through it in-situ) the plank-lines remained faintly visible, which is exactly what I’ve observed on real ones.

 

You’re making me miss this stuff, which I haven’t touched for thirteen years now (precisely date-able, because I still have unfinished the coach and vans that were on the bench the evening my good lady went into labour with our son!).

[DLT]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

You’re making me miss this stuff, which I haven’t touched for thirteen years now

 

So,,,,  Might this discussion persuade you to revive it???

[Nearholmer]

Yes, if I can carve out time - that’s the real challenge with a young family, a job (OK, only part time now), and at least one other hobby.