Snowdon Mountain Railway - current motive power situation?

[009 micro modeller]

I see from my copy of the September issue of Narrow Gauge World that the Snowdon Mountain Railway has now taken delivery of the ‘pods’ that will be fitted to their new hybrid Clayton locomotives to provide extra passenger accommodation. Does the introduction of these mean that some or all of the Hunslet diesels will be withdrawn? I notice that this release from Clayton says that the two Clayton locos will replace two Hunslets, implying that the other two will stay, but I don’t know how accurate this is, although I notice that two of the Hunslet locos are a few years older than the other two - maybe this would make the older ones more likely candidates for withdrawal? Are they in any way life-expired?

 

Meanwhile, on the subject of the steam locos, I can’t find the relevant issue of NGW from a few years ago (when the SMR got the new coaches and began to market the diesel and heritage steam services separately) but I seem to recall that it stated they wanted to return a working steam fleet of 4, which has subsequently increased to 5 (I think this is all 4 of the remaining original locos plus no. 6 from the later batch but it would be good if someone who is more ‘in the know’ could confirm this). Has anything else happened with regard to nos. 7 and 8 or are they still stored off-site?

 

 I know there have been a few suggestions that the two stored steam locos should be preserved, even if only able to be on static display (which I think is a good idea if a suitable home can be found), but presumably the Hunslet diesels are also fairly significant - there can’t be that many British-built (especially diesel) rack locomotives, with the possible exception of specialist locos for working short rack sections in mines.

[steve1023]

AFAIK steamers 2, 3, 5 & 6 are in service. Not sure about the other 3. 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

21 minutes ago, steve1023 said:

AFAIK steamers 2, 3, 5 & 6 are in service. Not sure about the other 3. 

7 and 8 are unlikely ever to be returned to traffic (although at one time I had thought the same of 5). I have heard nothing about 4 for some time, but I think the long term plan is to run four steam locomotives, so I presume the overhaul is going/will go ahead. If they do intend running five locomotives, then they'll need to resurrect either 7 or 8.

 

According to the SMR website they are not running steam locomitives at all this year.

 

Although I always much prefer seeing the steam locomotives, I'll miss the Hunslets if they are retired.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

7 and 8 are unlikely ever to be returned to traffic (although at one time I had thought the same of 5). I have heard nothing about 4 for some time, but I think the long term plan is to run four steam locomotives, so I presume the overhaul is going/will go ahead. If they do intend running five locomotives, then they'll need to resurrect either 7 or 8.

 

I understood the five to be 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, with one under overhaul (so not 5 running simultaneously but a service fleet of 5). It was originally supposed to be 4 and I can’t remember when the fifth one coming back was mentioned but it was another NGW news item and I think was because the steam service had proved more popular than originally expected. I don’t know how many locos (diesel or steam) are actually needed to run the regular service.

 

Edit: on a related note, I know that the new Garmendale coaches will only run with the diesels (Clayton or Hunslet) but I’d be interested to know the technical reason that they can’t be used with the steam locos.

Edited August 24, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[009 micro modeller]

NGW 88 (July-August 2013) states a steam service fleet of four (three running, one under overhaul) comprised of locos 2, 3, 4 and 6. Then NGW 123 (August 2017) has no. 5 returning to service (matching the information on the SMR’s own website), although I can’t work out if this is instead of no. 4 or as well. I’m also wondering whether 7 and 8 are at risk of scrapping or whether they are just stored indefinitely.

Edited August 25, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[steve1023]

Hi all. I was just hoping for an update to the status of the steam loco's on the SMR. I was in Llanberis briefly last week and clocked 3 & 6 and just missed 5 heading off but couldn't see 2 or 4 anywhere and as for 7 & 8......

 

Also, is it known what is happening with the new Claytons. I'm not sure if they are even in service yet. 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Steve

[009 micro modeller]

On 24/07/2022 at 20:55, steve1023 said:

Hi all. I was just hoping for an update to the status of the steam loco's on the SMR. I was in Llanberis briefly last week and clocked 3 & 6 and just missed 5 heading off but couldn't see 2 or 4 anywhere and as for 7 & 8......

 

Also, is it known what is happening with the new Claytons. I'm not sure if they are even in service yet. 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Steve

Haven’t they fairly recently (in May) had 100th birthday celebrations for Padarn, one of the 1922 locos?

 

I thought at least some of the Claytons were already in service. I can’t remember how many of these there are.

Edited July 27, 2022 by 009 micro modeller

[papagolfjuliet]

Nos 7 and 8 have been out of traffic for many years and, being non-standard, are apparently likely to remain that way. Last I was aware they were under tarps in Llanberis yard but they may not now even be on site.

[YK 50A]

I was at the Snowdon Mountain Railway last week and asked. Nos. 2, 4, 7 and 8 are unlikely to run again and have been cannibalised for parts to help keep the others running. The frames, tanks and cabs all exist, in the case of 7 and 8 at least, stored off site. The boilers have either been scrapped or are in use on 3, 5 or 6. No. 6 is even more non-standard, of course. We had no. 3 for our trip, the only locomotive in steam. No sign of the Clayton's, but they might have been hiding somewhere. 

[2mm Andy]

On 18/08/2022 at 14:13, YK 50A said:

I was at the Snowdon Mountain Railway last week and asked. Nos. 2, 4, 7 and 8 are unlikely to run again and have been cannibalised for parts to help keep the others running. The frames, tanks and cabs all exist, in the case of 7 and 8 at least, stored off site. The boilers have either been scrapped or are in use on 3, 5 or 6. No. 6 is even more non-standard, of course. We had no. 3 for our trip, the only locomotive in steam. No sign of the Clayton's, but they might have been hiding somewhere. 

 

There is a news item in the August issue of Narrow Gauge World magazine reporting that at least one of the Clayton locos has been returned to the manufacturers.

 

Andy

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, 2mm Andy said:

 

There is a news item in the August issue of Narrow Gauge World magazine reporting that at least one of the Clayton locos has been returned to the manufacturers.

 

Andy

Yes, I saw that. I’m not quite clear on whether any of them actually entered public service at all.

 

On 18/08/2022 at 13:37, papagolfjuliet said:

Nos 7 and 8 have been out of traffic for many years and, being non-standard, are apparently likely to remain that way. Last I was aware they were under tarps in Llanberis yard but they may not now even be on site.

 

I think at least some of the out of service steam locos have been off-site for some time, but I’m not sure where they are stored. Possibly elsewhere in Llanberis?

[Steamport Southport]

Hasn't one been sold off to a preservationist or group? Ralph Sadler rings a bell. I think it might have bent frames.

 

I would be quite happy to see at least one of the unwanted ones that will probably never steam again saved, even if it is just to be stuffed and mounted, and using bits no longer used cobbled together as the FR did with Livingston Thompson.

 

The Welsh Narrow Gauge Museum would be ideal. Or even the NRM.

 

 

 

Jason

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I saw photos of 7 and 8 stored minus boilers and cabs off site some years ago. I imagine they are still there (wherever "there" is). I must admit, I had not expected 2 and 4 to be permanent withdrawals, but Snowdon is rather an odd operation that I don't pretend to understand. Don't they only have two carriages for the steam trains?

 

I thought both Claytons had been returned for being unsuited to the needs of the railway (which I can well believe; it is a very demanding line to work).

 

Incidentally, I see they are advertising for an infrastructure manager, if anyone is interested. You'll need a civil engineering degree: https://snowdonrailway.co.uk/work-with-us/

[009 micro modeller]

On 19/08/2022 at 22:10, Jeremy C said:

Don't they only have two carriages for the steam trains?

As I understand it, the two ‘steam’ carriages are the chassis of the old ones, with new bodies to replace the previous 1950s bodies (which were in a red and cream livery prior to withdrawal). The new bodies are supposedly based on the design of their original 19th-century bodies, but with more open interiors. The completely new coaches (the black/red/white ones), however, are only able to be used with either the Hunslet diesels or the new Claytons.

[pete_mcfarlane]

On 19/08/2022 at 22:10, Jeremy C said:

Incidentally, I see they are advertising for an infrastructure manager, if anyone is interested. You'll need a civil engineering degree: https://snowdonrailway.co.uk/work-with-us/

And you need to know how to use Excel.....

 

They seem to want quite a lot for the salary.

 

 

[Andy Ross]

For anyone interested in the Hunslet Diesels, I am building a model of them in various stages of build for my Hunslet works project - see link below and a few of photos. 

 

                          

 

If you want to see any of the bits, we will be at the Steam Museum Swindon - Model Railway Festival this weekend 10th & 11 September. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Trams and Locos

[johnofwessex]

I came across this when I was wondering about the fate of the Clayton loco's

 

It looks like the SMR doesnt have much luck with new loco's except for the Hunslets and they are no longer in the first flush of youth.

 

Perhaps they might try a European builder who has experience of mountain railway loco's next time

[009 micro modeller]

15 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

I came across this when I was wondering about the fate of the Clayton loco's

 

It looks like the SMR doesnt have much luck with new loco's except for the Hunslets and they are no longer in the first flush of youth.

 

Perhaps they might try a European builder who has experience of mountain railway loco's next time

I can’t quite remember but what was the problem with the Clayton locos?

 

They seem to have moved away from the idea of modernising the steam fleet, although on some continental rack railways there are new build steam locos incorporating various improvements. I think originally there was a plan for Snowdon to be electrified, supplied with hydroelectric power, although I’m not sure if this has ever been looked at again.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

12 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I think originally there was a plan for Snowdon to be electrified, supplied with hydroelectric power, although I’m not sure if this has ever been looked at again.

In the inter-war period, the Snowdon Mountain Railway was owned by the Aluminium Corporation (or possibly Henry Joseph Jack, Managing Director of the Aluminium Corporation - I find it rather difficult to separate out Jack's personal interests from the Aluminium Corporation), who were also involved in hydro-electricity generation, but I am not sure that electrifying the Snowdon Mountain Railway was ever seriously considered as an option. In the event, the SMR bought three new steam locomotives. 

 

The history of this time is complicated, and I don't begin to understand it fully, but I'll add some rough notes in case others are interested.

 

Hydroelectric power came early to North Wales, with power stations being opened at Blaencwm in 1904 (built by Croesor Quarry), Cwm Dyli in 1906 (built by the Portmadoc. Beddgelert and South Snowdon Railway and North Wales Power and Traction), and Dolgarrog in 1907 (originally planned by North Wales Power and Traction, but built by the Aluminium Corporation when NWPT ran out of money).

 

Most of these companies got into financial difficulties. The Aluminium Corporation went into receivership early on, but was rescued by a group of people that included Henry Joseph Jack, who by 1915 was Managing Director. In 1918, Jack bought NWPT, who by then owned the Croesor Tramway and the moribund PBSSR, and it might have been from this that he decided to branch out into railways. As well as buying the Snowdon Mountain Railway, he also bought the North Wales Narrow Gauge Railway and the Festiniog Railway. It was Jack who formed the Welsh Highland Railway. Although the PBSSR was originally conceived as an electric railway, I haven't seen anything to suggest that Jack intended the WHR to be electrified.

 

In 1924, Jack was forced to resign from the WHR and FR boards, his position being taken by Colonel Stephens, although it seems he remained the majority shareholder of the WHR, In 1925 following the failure of the dam at Dolgarrog and the loss of 16 lives, he had to resign from the Aluminium Corporation as well, but he remained chairman of the Snowdon Mountain Railway till just before his death in 1946.

 

One interesting outcome of these various connections was that when I attended a talk given by a manager of the Snowdon Mountain Railway some twenty or thirty years ago, the person brought with them a blueprint for one of the Bruce Peebles electric locomotives for the PBSSR, that was in the SMR's archives in Llanberis.