14xx - best model for 1950 auto.

[Chubber]

I'm looking for a DC Early 14xx to go with my BR grey roof Auto coach. What should I be looking out for having missed the chance with the latest Dapol (?} Model?

More importantly what should I avoid?

 

Thank you,

 

Doug

[DCB]

Which gauge are we talking about?  In OO I have Airfix, Dapol, and Hornby 14XX. (in my scrap box)  The Airfix ran beatifully for maybe a year before the pickups packed up and like a three legged crab thereafter. The Dapol hoped around like a frog and the first Hornby was fine for a while until the traction tyres wore out. The later Hornby is showing signs of wear so it sits on shed while Hattons 14XX and a Bachann 64XX pull trains.  All the Airfix/ Dapol/Hornby  Airfix derived 14XX have a  very off shaped cab side, cab roof , The Hattons runs nice, looks nice doesn't have wobble matci traction tyres but is very light on its feet but in a different league to the others.   I had a K's 14XX which is dreadful.

It needs someone to realise a 14XX needs a powered rear axle as most of the bulk id over the rear axle, 50:1 gears for the drivers and 40:1 gears for the trailing wheels should get the job done. and I have a K's tender drive unit which may fit the bill.  If the Hattons is no longer available  and you model in OO and want a decent 14XX maybe change to N or O gauge? 

[Chubber]

Thanks for this, David, it's the Hattons I am after, of course I should have said 00. It will have to pull only the H'worth auto.

 

Douglas

[d00m]

If you find a good runner that doesn't break the bank, let me know. Like David, my Airfix 14xx pickups failed. With new pickups (phosphor bronze on paxolin) it worked for a bit, but not great. In the bits box now.

[DKGL]

Alternatively, get a clapped out Airfix/Dapol/Hornby 14XX, take out the motor, so it becomes a push along model. 

Add a motor bogie (in my case a Tenshodo one) to the Autocoach, with more pick ups on the second bogie.

[d00m]

4 minutes ago, DKGL said:

Alternatively, get a clapped out Airfix/Dapol/Hornby 14XX, take out the motor, so it becomes a push along model. 

Add a motor bogie (in my case a Tenshodo one) to the Autocoach, with more pick ups on the second bogie.

 

Did you have to add extra weight to the loco or was the chassis free running enough with the motor removed ?

[DKGL]

44 minutes ago, d00m said:

 

Did you have to add extra weight to the loco or was the chassis free running enough with the motor removed ?

 

No extra weight required. This is one of the old Airfix Models, and the chassis was heavy enough.

Also, with the extra pick ups on the Autocoach, there was no need to add any to the loco.

[Gordon A]

There is also at least one chassis kit available for the 14xx.

 

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 

It needs someone to realise a 14XX needs a powered rear axle as most of the bulk id over the rear axle, 50:1 gears for the drivers and 40:1 gears for the trailing wheels should get the job done.  

I think you will find the ratio should be closer to 35:1 for the trailing wheels:

3' 8" : 5' 2" (44" : 62") = almost 0.71.

35 : 50 = 0.7 which is not far off.

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, Gordon A said:

There is also at least one chassis kit available for the 14xx.

 

Two, in fact, High Level and Comet.

 

[Captain Kernow]

In terms of nice, smooth running, I've yet to see any RTR chassis that performs satisfactorily. Some people have had good experiences with the various RTR types, even the Hattons-DJM one, but I have not and an etched chassis replacement has been the only way to deal with this, for me.

 

[Steamport Southport]

Key question was what to avoid.

 

Hattons/DJ Models. Hattons refuse to even put their name to them anymore. Avoid like the plague. 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/3094212/1000588/1000640/0/dj_models_dave_jones_oo_gauge_1_76_scale_steam_locos/prodlist.aspx

 

A 110 page thread on the reasons not to buy one here....

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92852-hattons-announce-14xx-48xx-58xx/

 

 

Hornby is the best RTR option. Or Mainline/Airfix/Dapol/Replica second hand. The weak point is the traction tyres and the chassis in general. As mentioned above there are etched chassis replacements.

 

The K's kit is still probably the best. If you can find one. Good solid heavy model, accurate and easy to build. Hopefully it'll get a re-release from Nucast Partners at some point.

 

But still hoping that PDK release theirs. Supposed to be due after the 56XX which is now with the etchers.

 

http://www.pdkmodels.co.uk/PL 5.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

49 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Hornby is the best RTR option. Or Mainline/Airfix/Dapol/Replica second hand. The weak point is the traction tyres and the chassis in general. As mentioned above there are etched chassis replacements.

Traction tyres are horrible things, Satan’s expectorant, and arguably overkill on a 14xx which is only going to be dealing with a single trailer.  The loco will run perfectly well without them so long as the track is level, and pickup will be improved.  The Airfix chassis is a good runner but will fail because crud gets into the sprung plunger pickups; Hornby produce to the same body tooling but have a more reliable retooled chassis, but it is apparently not the smoothest runner.  The motor intrudes into the cab on this model.  
 

The DJM is by all accounts a bit hit and miss, some owners reporting very good results and others being barely able to get them to run at all, which is the more unacceptable as the thing costs about twice as much as the (Railroad) Hornby. 
 

The K’s, which crops up on ‘Bay sometimes, has no detail below the running plate, and as with any s/h kit build is of varying quality.  Many modellers of my generation cut their whitemetal teeth with this kit, which was a major driving force behind the GW BLT concept, and some of us were not that good at kitbuilding, so many of these are a bit suspect. 
 

Kit chassis are the answer, if you are comfortable with them.  Sadly, a reliable smooth running 14xx still eludes the RTR world. 

[Steamport Southport]

You can criticise the K's kits for not having underframe detail, but most of the RTR from the era didn't have any either and many had generic chassis that wasn't even the correct wheelbase.

 

They do appear on eBay, but at extortionate prices for unbuilt ones.

 

 

Maybe the DJM 14XX will appear at some point with a new improved chassis. But somehow I don't think it will be a joint partnership with EFE and Hattons....

 

I notice one of the damaged second hand ones in Hattons has since sold. So there must still be demand for them. Even in poor condition.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/521283/dj_models_dave_jones_h1412_po04_class_14xx_0_4_2t_1474_in_br_unlined_black_with_early_emblem_heavily_weathered_/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

 

Jason

[DKGL]

I've got a further 3 running. First is the Airfix, Top Feed removed, and the centre wheels swapped for ones without traction tyres. Normally used on the Milk Trains

 

Second one is Hornby. Used usually with a rake of four 4 Wheel Coaches.

 

 

The final one is the Hattons. I know there is a lot of people unsatisfied with this version, but I have had no issues at all.

 

 

They all are used on quite short workings, so no issues with long heavy trains.

 

[St Enodoc]

37 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Hornby produce to the same body tooling but have a more reliable retooled chassis, but it is apparently not the smoothest runner.

One of the reasons for this is the sprung rear axle which lets the loco "sit down" when moving forward so the front axle lifts up and loses electrical contact, then it drops back down and picks up again, and so on. Block the rear axle from moving and it runs much better.

Edited August 25, 2020 by St Enodoc

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

One of the reasons for this is the sprung rear axle which lets the loco "sit down" when moving forward so the front axle lifts up and loses electrical contact, then it drops back down and picks up again, and so on. Block the rear axle from moving and it runs much better.

Not radically dissimilar to a problem I had with a current chassis Hornby 2721; the loco drives on the front axle and the rear axle is sprung by two coil springs bearing down directly to the axle.  A note in the pdf owner's sheet suggests that these springs can be strengthened by stretching them or weakened if too powerful by trimming them with a cutter.  In my case they were powerful enough to lift the bunker visible even after I'd packed it with Liquid Lead (neither liquid nor lead), and the rough ends had scored the axle, clearly not contributing to the smooth running I was after.  

 

So I trimmed them, a mm at a time, and smoothed the ends with emery paper (my dad always called this 'dick rag' after the camp comedian) (feel much better now I've unburdened myself of that), until the loco sat nicely all wheels on the track, which improved running by quantum.  This might cure the 14xx issues and retain some compensation; what you are looking to achieve is a situation where the loco sits all wheels on the track at rest, and is allowed to sit on each of the outer axles without lifting the other off the railhead, or lifting both outer axles to the extend that the central axle is not in contact with the railhead.  The smooth starts that this allows will enable power to be taken up gradually which will in turn lessen the loco's tendencies to sit on the outer trailing axle in whichever direction it is travelling.

[Chubber]

Thank you, gentlemen for your inputs. Maybe I am better off waiting to see if anyone makes a better model, I have an 8750 pannier I could use, but it will need a respary.

Again, thank you for showing an interest.

 

Doug

[Captain Kernow]

A couple of things here - the Hattons-DJM body is the best by a long way, but let down (for many people) by it's chassis and mechanism.

 

The Airfix one (now sold by Hornby, so essentially the same) is a decent body and you can get an upgrading kit from Wizard Models (formerly from Mainly Trains), although there are some parts of that upgrade kit that I wouldn't use. One of the main weaknesses of the Airfix (or Hornby) example is the poor smokebox door.

 

The K's kit can give good results, but I found out only recently that the footplate casting is (for reasons unknown) too short, by about 2mm, I believe.

 

[melmerby]

I have found the Airfix pannier 0-4-2T to be a reasonable runner, by making sure the plunger pickups work properly and dumping the traction tyres for proper wheels.

I have two originals, bought S/H many years ago, both needed the plungers cleaning as the grease around them eventual sets like beeswax and they stop working.

Soaked in IPA for several hours, they then became very free and to this day work as intended.

One loco has both sets non-traction tyred wheels off of them and the other has Gibson wheels.

DCC decoder fitted they both run reasonably well.

I also have a DJM/Hattons example which is the bees knees body wise but let down by the "diesel" style drive train, although mine runs acceptably.

I also have a K's 70 series example and the chassis & motor on that were diabolical rubbish, I have had a go at another chassis but never fitted it.

 

Corrected, that's to Johnster pointing out a schoolboy error!

Memo to self, don't post when you are falling asleep!

Edited August 26, 2020 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Chubber said:

. Maybe I am better off waiting to see if anyone makes a better model, I have an 8750 pannier I could use, but it will need a respary.

The 8750 is not suitable for working a push-pull auto train, as none of the class were ever equipped with the auto gear, though they could be seen hauling, but not propelling except as shunitng movements, trains of auto trailers in 'normal' mode, as could any type of loco.  Auto fitted types available RTR are 1) the Airfix 14xx, the body tooling of which is still being produced by Hornby but with a retooled chassis, 2) the DJM/Hattons 14xx (note that the 58xx version is not suitable for auto work), 3) the Bachmann 64xx, 4) the Bachmann 4575 (some locos equipped with auto gear in 1953 in connection with a South Wales timetable revision and expansion of auto work in that area), and 5) the LIma 4575.  45xx is not suitable as none were ever fitted with the equipment.  

 

Some other older classes were equipped wholly or partially with auto gear by the GW, but the first class built new with the gear was the 48xx, later 14xx.  These older locos included Metro, 517, 2021, and 850 classes, some with outside frames.  None of these survived into the period when the A38 trailer, the Bachmann trailer the OP has, were in service.  Thus, all the auto fitted locos that were in service at the same time as the A38s are available as RTR models except the 54xx.  

 

Given that DJM have their own issues and are no longer in the game, and that Hornby have recently re-introduced a version of their 14xx, I doubt if the new tooling the type clearly needs will be forthcoming for several years at least, so you might want to look at the alternative locos, or the Comet chassis.

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

I have found the Airfix pannier to be a reasonable runne

You mean the 14xx of course; Airfix never made a pannier.  Good tip about the IPA bath, and I agree these locos are smooth runners once the tyres are removed and that wheelset replaced with a non-grooved one.  The model's main drawback is still the lack of cab detail; on mine years ago I disguised this with crew in the doorways and modelling the sliding shutters in the shut position.  These are on sliders inside the cab reveal and can be slid back to the doorway to keep the weather out, and are simple to model; simply glue a piece of plastic sheet to the inside of the cab wall in the position you want it, a trick that can also serve for pannier classes.  The small and large prairies, 56xx, 42xx etc have the shutters outside the cab, and on models they are moulded in place in the fully open position (which to be fair is where they spent most of their time on the real locos), so this subterfuge is less possible with these types,

 

Some of the absorbed or constituent South Wales railways used SRMs and trailers, and the GW rebuilt the SRMs as trailers, in the same way as it was doing to it's own SRMs, and converted the stock to it's own auto system, but no absorbed/constituent pre-grouping locos were converted.

Edited August 26, 2020 by The Johnster

[Harlequin]

And so the best RTR "14xx" is...

 

A Bachmann 64xx.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Harlequin

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You mean the 14xx of course; Airfix never made a pannier. 

 

Of course.

Sleepy head strikes!

[5050]

14 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

The K's kit can give good results, but I found out only recently that the footplate casting is (for reasons unknown) too short, by about 2mm, I believe.

Probably because Ken Keyser used the Roche drawing which has the front section of the footplate in front of the smokebox door to short.  I worked this out when comparing the K's and Airfix bodies many years ago and wondered why and how they were different.  As soon as I looked in the Roche book of drawings I realised why.

 

I run both still and don't worry about the difference..................

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 23:40, DavidCBroad said:

...It needs someone to realise a 14XX needs a powered rear axle ...

That would be one way. Long wait for any RTR manufacturer to venture upon this possibly poisoned chalice?

 

But for dedicated autotrain use, there are alternative DIY options which don't seem to be much discussed.

 

For bunker end coupled on, articulate the loco with the coach bogie, make the trailing truck wheelset floating. Should work like an old power bogie Lima etc diesel.

 

For smokebox end coupled on, have the coach end supported on the loco, in this arrangement with the coach bogie floating. Again, that should work like a power bogie diesel.