Jump to content
 

GW Branch Line (III) - a Portable Layout Puzzle


Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Premium
31 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

Well, I really don't want to stop you getting on with the build :unsure: but - it would be possible to place a Peco loco lift on the end of the receiving cassette (i.e. sitting on top of the cassette track, not beyond it), remove the loco and roll the rest of the train up to the end by hand - so the longest cassette would only need to be the length of the longest train minus the loco, other cassettes could be shorter.  For departures you would run the loco off the loco lift onto the curve, then add the cassette behind it.

 

 


Thanks Chris.  I’ve not got a Loco Lift - do they unload onto curves OK?  Keith.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Signalling wise you are in a rather different situation from the real Fairford because you have moved the goods shed turnout back to the middle of the platform.  This makes it slightly awkward to signal in exactly teh same manner as Fairford but there is - as far as I can see - a fairly simple way round it which we can look at when you get to the stage of thinking about signals.  One thing which is also relevant here is taht when it comes to shunting you will have to shunt, and at one time if not more, place a complete train beyond teh road bridge towards the fiddkle yard or whatever you have there and that train, or shunt, will have to come back into the station or towards the sidings. 


Ah - of course, it was the problem of signalling a facing point on a platform road that began this whole exercise.  But then, I do like a continuous run...

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

So this is of no use to you now, but thinking back to your first thread, which was about an 8x4 if I remember rightly, I wondered how well it would work....

 

So for your amusement, I hereby present "Eight-by-Fourford"

8x4ford.png.f3e79b8c51dd31b9183dfa6b6c3af917.png

 

I had to resort to R2 towards the bottom and the turntable was a no-hoper, but I don't think anyone would mistake this for anything other than Fairford in an 8x4.


Very good - the first version with both the Goods Siding Crossovers, I think.  Although it looks tight for a Station Building, I think it was more towards the Yard end of the Platform so you’d be OK.  And of course, you have the loading dock ;) .

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Making your own single tongue GWR trap points isn't too difficult.  all you need to do is a little bit of sleeper slicing to make room for a short piece of rail filed down at one end to make a short point switch rail.  And this gives you a good idea of what they look like -  (except you don't bother with a working model but just have the short piece of diverging rail.-

 

traps.jpg.7af51f941898af86bc29272bd1fa83fb.jpg


No reduction in Siding capacity either, by the look of it?

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Here's one I made earlier...

 

1991909199_20200519008PMNo1Spursafetypointcomplete.JPG.e1c153280d43171f25cbf6312ad97ca7.JPG

The dummy switch rail is soldered to the OUTSIDE of the running rail of course. The running rail is continuous through the point. The blue pin marks where the ground signal will go when I've built it.

 

Mike @The Stationmaster knows where this is - I hope the finally-selected position meets with his approval!


Thank you - my ‘dummy point’ option would be just like that - I have some old Setrack points I could take the blades from so I’d even have some ready tapered and curved rails - just need a bit of practice soldering (but I’d that doing these of course).  Ta.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, Chimer said:

 

Well, I really don't want to stop you getting on with the build :unsure: but - it would be possible to place a Peco loco lift on the end of the receiving cassette (i.e. sitting on top of the cassette track, not beyond it), remove the loco and roll the rest of the train up to the end by hand - so the longest cassette would only need to be the length of the longest train minus the loco, other cassettes could be shorter.  For departures you would run the loco off the loco lift onto the curve, then add the cassette behind it.

 

 

Or use a split cassette - one piece for locos and the rest for the train?

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
49 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:


No reduction in Siding capacity either, by the look of it?

There is and there isn't because it all depends where the trap will dump any errant vehicle it 'traps' and derails.  What is needed is to drop it/them on the ground clear of the running line and the speed of the trapped vehicle will have an effect on selecting the distance the trap lies from the fouling point - but you could reasonably copy that one I think.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
Just now, The Stationmaster said:

Or use a split cassette - one piece for locos and the rest for the train?


If I could extend the Fiddle Yard Baseboard that would work - the problem as it stand is that (for the 40” trains) the final 14” of a 42” Cassette overhangs into the thin air beyond the baseboard (Chimer’s drawing shows a 36” Cassette with an 8” overhang).

 

Given the awkward room entrance that determines the constraint, I think the 42” Cassette would still be needed, although a loco lift could be used inside it to turn the engine, so the whole thing doesn’t need turning - correct for this Branch Line.  Brake Vans need swapping to the other end, but presumably wouldn’t have been turned either.
 

With more experience layout building it’s the kind of idea I could come back to.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

the first version with both the Goods Siding Crossovers

I think it was putting the goods on the outside which enabled that, and it probably doesn't meet your 40" train requirement.

 

But I was surprised at how much of it would fit in an 8x4 footprint.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

I think it was putting the goods on the outside which enabled that, and it probably doesn't meet your 40" train requirement.

 

But I was surprised at how much of it would fit in an 8x4 footprint.


As long as there is clearance to run round a 30” Coach set (3 carriages) - which I think there might just be - it should be OK: there’s no problem with the Fiddle Yard.  Are the points Medium or Small?  (Maybe even Setrack in the Fiddle Yard but that’s OK if it is - the ruling radius is already R2, and the extra track spacing is a good idea when loco lifting).  Fiddle Tracks are straight which helps with the loco lifting too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Apart from the 3 way the scenic points are all small I think. Set track off scene.

 

Having the full 8' for the FY enables the platform to be clear of the loop etc, too. Although it does have to go on a R2/3 curve as a result.

Edited by Zomboid
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
16 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Apart from the 3 way the scenic points are all small I think. Set track off scene.

 

Having the full 8' for the FY enables the platform to be clear of the loop etc, too. Although it does have to go on a R2/3 curve as a result.


Thanks - although there wasn’t any complex track-work at Fairford, I think the one asymmetric 3-way where you have it at the far end of the Yard looks OK, more elegant than my Y points.

 

The copy of Stanley Jenkins book I was waiting for came this afternoon and his plans concur with Karau’s that post-war the Goods Loop was converted to a stub Siding.

  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

No. They need a foot of straight track.

 

Ideally yes, necessarily I don't think so.  An inch of straight and something temporary to raise the other end of the lift should be OK.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

PS: An alternative ending

 

First thing I noticed having a quick look at Stanley C. Jenkins history of the Branch is my platform is still too long.  Karau's sketch (acknowledged as approximate) suggested a length of 4 chains, which I think is 264 feet and scales to just over 41 1/2" at 1:76.  Jenkins has the platform as 246', which is 38.8".  It would explain why photos show engines fouling the first point into the Goods Yard when stopped at the Station.  Amending my plan gives me this:

 

279674424_Design5.jpg.47d38667b12d8753bb3d71d3c9037ab9.jpg

 

A Loading Dock!  My arrangement is not strictly as it was at Fairford, where it was more parallel with the running line beyond the platform with the dock behind, but I don't have room for that (and the point would cross a joint).

 

To avoid overcrowding the plan I've removed the mileage siding that was only added towards the end of WWII -the very end of my era: my first reading of Jenkins' book suggests the Goods Loop may have been converted to a Stub Siding as part of the same revision works - I'll double check this when I read the book properly.  I'd rather have the loop, as it is one of the 'signature' scenes I'm after.

 

Removing the Mileage Siding point allows me to shift the Goods Shed along the loop and rework the entrance to the Goods Yard to have one Trap point in front of the point - this is how the Trap was positioned before the Run-Round Loop at Fairford.  I don't know if I still need a Trap point between the Engine Shed and the Loading Dock, or if the Loading Dock point now serves that purpose - but if I only need one I would look at an operating one.

 

I don't know if this is an overall improvement on my 'final' design - but I could compare the two with track and buildings when boards are built and then make a choice, as it's only a minor adjustment overall.  Keith.


(Edit: I could probably shuffle the Goods Shed back toward the Station and fit the cattle dock onto the loop too - it disappeared in later years but would be OK for my period: I think the later Yard crane may have used the same base)

 

 

Edited by Keith Addenbrooke
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

It'll be quite awkward to use the loading dock if there's anything other than freight in the area, since it comes off the main rather than the goods loop. Without a separate carriage siding I can't see how you'd shunt it if any passenger carriages are on site.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
53 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

It'll be quite awkward to use the loading dock if there's anything other than freight in the area, since it comes off the main rather than the goods loop. Without a separate carriage siding I can't see how you'd shunt it if any passenger carriages are on site.


Fair point, thank you.  I’ve not seen many photos of the yard being shunted, especially before the carriage siding was added (pre-1930s I think).  I’ve assumed coaches were stabled on the run-round loop before then?
 

Anything arriving at the front or rear of a passenger train could perhaps be shunted as a tail end working as there’d be no passengers on board at this point? (I’d need to check the clearance to the end of the line - not a problem the prototype had).
 

Access was always awkward of course - there was no space between the kickback point for the loading dock and the Goods Shed, but this seems to have been a common arrangement on several of the stations on the line which had quite standard track plan and buildings (back to the fact Fairford wasn’t intended as a Terminus).


I suppose they had the opposite problem at Fairford - how to extract vehicles from the Loading Dock for XP passenger working when the Goods Shed was full?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

An interesting development Keith and of course simplicity itself to provide an end loading facility on the dock siding because the ground behind the station platform would be at platform level and not at track level.  The dock siding would now of course act as the trap for the 'through' line. 

 

As far as platform length is concerned it is very easy to come up with two different figures, for a start platforms were measured in two different ways so it depends on which source you use  and secondly, as a solicitor once said to me about boundaries on site plan  'just how wide is a line on a drawing when you scale it up?'  And of course it's remarkably easy - even for official sources - to transpose the 4 & the 6 in that number.  But the critical bit is knowing what the dimension actually refers to - operationally we were only interested in the distance between the top of the platform ramps and what (usually very limited) records we did have used that figure.  The Civil Engineer's 40ft line diagrams normally showed the total length of a platform, i.e. between the bottom of the ramps.  So debating over an 18 ft difference between two secondary sources which are that close together in overall terms is hardly worth the bother.

 

The change in the layout resulting from removing the 'new' mileage siding will obviously have one major impact - the goods loop is now massively shorter than the real one which clearly accommodated both shed and mileage traffic because it had the room to do so.  Thus you will now have less space in which to stand, and shunt wagons - not much less space but something still perhaps to be born in mind.  

 

Similarly a possible side effect of reducing space for wagon standage is that it might become more difficult to stable two sets of coaches as one of them will probably be competing with wagons for siding space.   There is a way round that but it would not be 'very Fairford' in the way it is done and that is to leave one set of coaches at the platform overnight.  However in my view the improved appearance from adding the dock and, especially, moving the confluence of run-round and goods loop at the station end greatly improves the overall appearance of the layout with eh latter definitely adding 'openness'.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Thanks for the responses.  I've had a quick check of these details over lunch:

 

On 10/09/2020 at 09:48, Zomboid said:

True, I hadn't thought of it like that - it's well placed for vans running as part of passenger trains (assuming the track beyond is long enough), but not so clever for freight that needs end loading. The opposite of how it was in the real place.

 

On 10/09/2020 at 10:34, The Stationmaster said:

An interesting development Keith and of course simplicity itself to provide an end loading facility on the dock siding because the ground behind the station platform would be at platform level and not at track level.  The dock siding would now of course act as the trap for the 'through' line. 

 

I checked, my revised 'Final' plan as drawn has 41" from the toe of the Loading Dock point to the end of the line, so a full length train can fit (just).  The Loading Dock point is far enough from the end of the line to work as a Trap, as suggested.  

 

It's correct that Shunting could get jammed on my layout if more than two vans on a two coach train were involved (more than one van for the Loading Dock at the rear of an incoming train, and / or more than one van to take from the Loading Dock).  Incidentally, if I understand the annotations in Jenkins' diagrams, the Siding capacity of the loading dock was 2 vans - which looks about right from the photos.

 

On 10/09/2020 at 10:34, The Stationmaster said:

As far as platform length is concerned it is very easy to come up with two different figures, for a start platforms were measured in two different ways so it depends on which source you use  and secondly, as a solicitor once said to me about boundaries on site plan  'just how wide is a line on a drawing when you scale it up?'  And of course it's remarkably easy - even for official sources - to transpose the 4 & the 6 in that number.  But the critical bit is knowing what the dimension actually refers to - operationally we were only interested in the distance between the top of the platform ramps and what (usually very limited) records we did have used that figure.  The Civil Engineer's 40ft line diagrams normally showed the total length of a platform, i.e. between the bottom of the ramps.  So debating over an 18 ft difference between two secondary sources which are that close together in overall terms is hardly worth the bother.

 

Thanks - this is helpful.  The 25" OS map I've seen doesn't show the ramps at all, and the measurement I got from Jenkins' diagram is a quoted figure.  As Karau states his diagrams were 'approximately to scale' I don't think I can provide a more definite answer from the sources I have.

 

On 10/09/2020 at 10:34, The Stationmaster said:

The change in the layout resulting from removing the 'new' mileage siding will obviously have one major impact - the goods loop is now massively shorter than the real one which clearly accommodated both shed and mileage traffic because it had the room to do so.  Thus you will now have less space in which to stand, and shunt wagons - not much less space but something still perhaps to be born in mind.  

 

Agreed - I've updated my 'Puzzle' diagram: operationally  I'll be treating my Siding C-D as serving the same purpose as the Mileage loop B-A did at Fairford pre-war, but capacity is reduced.  Personally I'm more interested in operating passenger trains than Freight, but a lot of Branch Lines depended on Goods for the bulk of their revenue - and the further back I look at photos, the busier Branch Line Goods yards were.  Adding extra Sidings, as at Fairford, seems to have been common. 

 

1801651203_Puzzle5b.jpg.066db63a3ca93d44a94dee171263a57b.jpg

 

On 10/09/2020 at 10:34, The Stationmaster said:

Similarly a possible side effect of reducing space for wagon standage is that it might become more difficult to stable two sets of coaches as one of them will probably be competing with wagons for siding space.   There is a way round that but it would not be 'very Fairford' in the way it is done and that is to leave one set of coaches at the platform overnight.  However in my view the improved appearance from adding the dock and, especially, moving the confluence of run-round and goods loop at the station end greatly improves the overall appearance of the layout with eh latter definitely adding 'openness'.

 

I think it should still work as long as my two overnight sets are two-coach sets.  I've very quickly updated the picture I drew of an overnight arrangement to show - the track layout is not quite the current one: this is illustrative only, but the relevant part of the run-round and beyond is correct:

 

116245162_Overnight5b.jpg.36c382c10211b599cbbd54390ee1e4e3.jpg

 

I'm not sure when the Carriage Siding was added - it is certainly in pre-War photos and pre-dates the Mileage Siding being added.  I've thought through a possible shunting sequence to make this work - it assumes the last set to arrive departs first in the morning.  Of course, my layout is supposed to look like it has the Carriage Siding, but I'll use it as the Mileage Siding.

 

Thanks for these points - worth testing the revision I've drawn to check I don't end up snookered too often!  If I do, I could always add the Mileage Siding anyway to increase capacity - just like they did for real.

Edited by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

think it should still work as long as my two overnight sets are two-coach sets.  I've very quickly updated the picture I drew of an overnight arrangement to show - the track layout is not quite the current one: this is illustrative only, but the relevant part of the run-round and beyond is correct:

 

140349822_Overnight5b.jpg.5b8c1b8e3b1061a59f45dc98f65b0113.jpg

 

I don't want to be the voice of negativity, but how will you actually get to that situation? As I see it, the second to last train arrives, runs round and shoves the carriages up to the end. Loco then retires to the shed.

The last train of the day then arrives, but I just can't see how you'll run round it to push it into the loop.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 minute ago, Zomboid said:

I don't want to be the voice of negativity, but how will you actually get to that situation? As I see it, the second to last train arrives, runs round and shoves the carriages up to the end. Loco then retires to the shed.

The last train of the day then arrives, but I just can't see how you'll run round it to push it into the loop.

 

My thoughts went like this:
 

Please note: I am not an expert on prototype operation so this may not have been allowed - this is my amateur puzzle solving suggestion.


1.  Train A arrives, passengers disembark and train pulls forward on the running line.  Engine runs round and couples up.

2.  Carriages are then shunted ECS: out under the bridge (controlled I think by the lower Shunting arm that was on the signal), then propelled back into the run-round loop (middle line) up to the buffers.  Coaches are parked fouling the Loco Release point.
(3.  Engine Shed Siding point is set to the Engine Shed road so second train cannot collide with the parked coaches?).
4.  Engine A uncouples and waits in the run round loop.*. Trap point protects the running line.

5.  Train B arrives.  Passengers disembark.  Train pulls forward.  Engine B uncouples and goes on shed.

6.  Engine A is given the running line to pull forward, then reverses onto the empty coaches from Train B.

7.  Engine A then shunts the second train coaches B - forwards under the bridge and then propelled back into the run-round loop.

8.  Engine A uncouples then goes on shed.

 

* As I think it was actually a three hour wait, this might not have been how it was actually done in the days before the carriage siding.  The shed at Fairford would take two Panniers, but if it was a Prairie and a Pannier the doors wouldn’t shut.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
21 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I don't want to be the voice of negativity, but how will you actually get to that situation? As I see it, the second to last train arrives, runs round and shoves the carriages up to the end. Loco then retires to the shed.

The last train of the day then arrives, but I just can't see how you'll run round it to push it into the loop.

A simple - but expensive - way of doing it is to use the engine off the first arrival to shunt release the engine of the last arrival.  It could be expensive if it busts the rest interval of the crew off the first arrival because it then means having a third crew to take out the first passenger train of the day.

 

PS sorry but I've just said what Keith said.

 

BTW did the engine shed doors at Fairford survive the rough and tumble of an everyday railway?

 

 

Edited by The Stationmaster
  • Thanks 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

A simple - but expensive - way of doing it is to use the engine off the first arrival to shunt release the engine of the last arrival.  It could be expensive if it busts the rest interval of the crew off the first arrival because it then means having a third crew to take out the first passenger train of the day.

 

PS sorry but I've just said what Keith said.

 

BTW did the engine shed doors at Fairford survive the rough and tumble of an everyday railway?

 

 


From what I’ve read so far the Engine Shed doors did survive - but the Goods Shed doors suffered shunting damage.  I believe part of the wooden Mess van also ended up in a firebox on one damp morning too.

 

In terms of how the two evening arrivals were actually shunted, Karau’s description post-dates the carriage siding so it was much easier and the crew from train A would take their engine on shed and clock off.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I mentally ruled out shunt release because the second loco would just sit there for hours on end, with the last train being about 11pm arrival and it's predecessor was several hours earlier. Plus at actual Fairford they had the carriage siding and considerably more space in general so no such issue.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...