GW Branch Line (III) - a Portable Layout Puzzle

[Keith Addenbrooke]

23 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I mentally ruled out shunt release because the second loco would just sit there for hours on end, with the last train being about 11pm arrival and it's predecessor was several hours earlier. Plus at actual Fairford they had the carriage siding and considerably more space in general so no such issue.

From what I can see in Jenkins’ volume, the 1901 Timetable has the same arrival pattern, but the track diagram from c.1920 does not yet show the Carriage Siding, so there had to be a way to do it, if we rule out a three hour wait (we’re told the crew clocked off).

 

My guess is that the running line down past the Engine Shed to the buffers was long enough for the Edwardian trains so served as a de facto carriage siding overnight for the first train to arrive.  Jenkins does say that the last train in was the first train out, which my shuffling does for the coaches.  
 

I could cheat and use an Autocoach for the last train in - first train out, to compensate for my lack of space.  Here on the Wirral, I think I read once that an Autocoach was used for the first Service of the day from Birkenhead Woodside to West Kirby at one time, but not for later Services.

[Jeff Smith]

I would put a carriage siding from the middle of the outer loop to behind the engine shed, this would leave the spur the other side of the engine shed as a run around headshunt with room to park a wagon or two.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

16 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

I would put a carriage siding from the middle of the outer loop to behind the engine shed, this would leave the spur the other side of the engine shed as a run around headshunt with room to park a wagon or two.

Thanks Jeff.  That would work.  I wondered about a three-way point instead of the central Y - I think you could squeeze in another parallel track in the middle as well - I think it would achieve the same thing?

 

It all comes back to the Fairford conundrum: a station that was never intended to be a Terminus, but had to operate as one, at the end of a long Branch Line.
 

In terms of the model, if I’m not careful it would run the risk of looking less like Fairford did with more changes, rather than more like Fairford, and I need to be careful about another Siding on the overhang part of the baseboard that is harder for me to reach.
 

I think we can see why the GWR put in the carriage siding.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I don't want to be the voice of negativity, but how will you actually get to that situation? As I see it, the second to last train arrives, runs round and shoves the carriages up to the end. Loco then retires to the shed.

The last train of the day then arrives, but I just can't see how you'll run round it to push it into the loop.

1.  Train A arrives, passengers disembark, Engine A pulls train forwards, runs round coaches and shunts them into the run-round loop.  Goes on shed.  Crew A clock off.

2.  Train B arrives.  Passengers disembark.

3.  Coaches pushed back to the bridge.

4.  Engine runs forwards to the end of the line, then reverses into the loop and shunts Train A back through the Station to couple up to waiting coaches from B.

5.  Engine B pulls all four coaches into the run-round loop, where they just fit but can’t stay as they’re fouling the Trap point.  Engine B uncouples, pulls forward to the end of the line, which is still clear at this point.

6.  Engine B runs back through the Station, then shunts the coaches to their finish positions for the night and goes on shed.

7.  Crew B clock off and Signalman resigns, muttering something about how Ashburton is easier to compress into 7’6”...

 

(ie: I know this is not a realistic operating proposition).

Edited September 10, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Jeff Smith]

Well, strictly speaking, the goods shed should be on the same side as the station building at Fairford.  A mirror image is ok though I think when attempting a real location.  Without going back through the whole thread, would it be possible to flip the goods yard over putting the goods shed on the back line.  This would be more aesthetically pleasing and put the proposed carriage siding on the operator side and more closely match the Fairford layout.  Sorry if this suggestion seems counter productive.......it's not meant to be!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

31 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Well, strictly speaking, the goods shed should be on the same side as the station building at Fairford.  A mirror image is ok though I think when attempting a real location.  Without going back through the whole thread, would it be possible to flip the goods yard over putting the goods shed on the back line.  This would be more aesthetically pleasing and put the proposed carriage siding on the operator side and more closely match the Fairford layout.  Sorry if this suggestion seems counter productive.......it's not meant to be!

Hi Jeff, I’ll have a look - after all, I’ve bought the book now so I’ve invested in this idea .  The unusually busy operating at Fairford is one of the attractions so worth seeing what I can do.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

6 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I don't want to be the voice of negativity, but how will you actually get to that situation? As I see it, the second to last train arrives, runs round and shoves the carriages up to the end. Loco then retires to the shed.

The last train of the day then arrives, but I just can't see how you'll run round it to push it into the loop.

3rd attempt - I think this doesn’t seem too bad, and there is room.  Avoids the need to redesign the layout.

 

Two 2-coach trains, one made up of Collett 57’ coaches (about 10”), the other of slightly shorter Clerestories (9 1/2”).  There are photos in Karau of both types of coach - incl. clerestories in a 1930s photo.

 

1.  Train A arrives, coaches shunted into run-round loop and engine goes on shed as before.  Crew clock off.

2.  Train B arrives.  After disembarkation coaches are set back slightly just to clear the loop point mid-platform.

3.  Engine then runs through to the end of the line on the running line and shunts back via the loop as in my previous suggestion.  Coaches from train A are used like reach vehicles and couple up to coaches B.

4.  Couple up to coaches B in the platform and pulls all 4 into the loop.  Measurements indicate they can clear the trap point, following its relocation in the revised final iteration, so they stop clear of the trap point.  Engine uncouples, leaves all 4 coaches in the loop and goes on shed.  End.
 

Although there is a bit of shunting, Engine B does not need to run up and down to juggle the coaches into place at all, and both Train B and Engine B are still ready to be the first departure.
 

I’m only stuffed now if I find there was any tail end traffic on the first departure from the loading dock, which is still impossible.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Zomboid]

Seems workable to my uninformed mind. Not hard to see why the GWR put a carriage siding in though.

[The Stationmaster]

57 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

3rd attempt - I think this doesn’t seem too bad, and there is room.  Avoids the need to redesign the layout.

 

Two 2-coach trains, one made up of Collett 57’ coaches (about 10”), the other of slightly shorter Clerestories (9 1/2”).  There are photos in Karau of both types of coach - incl. clerestories in a 1930s photo.

 

1.  Train A arrives, coaches shunted into run-round loop and engine goes on shed as before.  Crew clock off.

2.  Train B arrives.  After disembarkation coaches are set back slightly just to clear the loop point mid-platform.

3.  Engine then runs through to the end of the line on the running line and shunts back via the loop as in my previous suggestion.  Coaches from train A are used like reach vehicles and couple up to coaches B.

4.  Couple up to coaches B in the platform and pulls all 4 into the loop.  Measurements indicate they can clear the trap point, following its relocation in the revised final iteration, so they stop clear of the trap point.  Engine uncouples, leaves all 4 coaches in the loop and goes on shed.  End.
 

Although there is a bit of shunting, Engine B does not need to run up and down to juggle the coaches into place at all, and both Train B and Engine B are still ready to be the first departure.
 

I’m only stuffed now if I find there was any tail end traffic on the first departure from the loading dock, which is still impossible.

That works so could be done - unlike the previous idea which as far as I understood it relied on coaches standing on the catch point which in turn meant the engine couldn't get past them!   As far as any tail traffic on the first train is concerned I can't really see how there would be any because most traffic, of all sorts, tended to arrive during the day.  Even milk from morning milking isn't going to be around in time to catch a train leaving at 07.00. because even on the most early rising of farms it would probably still be coming put of the cows at that time of day and ideally it should then be cooled before being sent off the farm although i don't know to what extent that happened in the early part of the 20th century.

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Thanks - this is helpful.  The 25" OS map I've seen doesn't show the ramps at all, and the measurement I got from Jenkins' diagram is a quoted figure.  As Karau states his diagrams were 'approximately to scale' I don't think I can provide a more definite answer from the sources I have.

As a sanity check, it is generally (but not always) the case that platform ramps have a gradient of 1 in 8. That would help you compare the lengths of the "top" and the "bottom" of the platform.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That works so could be done - unlike the previous idea which as far as I understood it relied on coaches standing on the catch point which in turn meant the engine couldn't get past them!   As far as any tail traffic on the first train is concerned I can't really see how there would be any because most traffic, of all sorts, tended to arrive during the day.  Even milk from morning milking isn't going to be around in time to catch a train leaving at 07.00. because even on the most early rising of farms it would probably still be coming put of the cows at that time of day and ideally it should then be cooled before being sent off the farm although i don't know to what extent that happened in the early part of the 20th century.

Thanks - at this stage I’d prefer to avoid a redesign. I’m grateful to @Zomboid for pointing out the problem - better now than in a year or two when I try running trains: one of the advantages of a Forum.  I ought to get out my coaches and double check the measurements I’ve got written down just to make sure - I do have tension locks so the length can have different definitions.

 

I’ll obviously need time to read Stanley Jenkins’ book, but I can’t see any photos of trains with tail traffic, and only one where I can identify a van in the Loading Dock - it looks like a horse box.  We covered the running of Horse Boxes here:  GW Branch Line Station Buildings .

 

In terms of carriage stock on the branch, I did note a comment in Jenkins that, when the sidings at Oxford were full, they would sometimes send excess coaches out on Fairford Branch trains just to get them out of the way (for me, this is good news).

Edited September 11, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Zomboid]

I'd also suggest running through the various other features of the timetable. For example, how would you shunt a freight train whilst a passenger train is on site? (Assuming you want to be able to). Probably less of a conundrum since you'll have a couple of engines available, but is that how you'd want to operate it/ a reasonable approximation of how the GWR operated?

 

As you say, better to be sure before you start sawing bits of wood up that it'll do what you want, since changes are much easier in Anyrail.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

17 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I'd also suggest running through the various other features of the timetable. For example, how would you shunt a freight train whilst a passenger train is on site? (Assuming you want to be able to). Probably less of a conundrum since you'll have a couple of engines available, but is that how you'd want to operate it/ a reasonable approximation of how the GWR operated?

 

As you say, better to be sure before you start sawing bits of wood up that it'll do what you want, since changes are much easier in Anyrail.

 

Agreed.  I've been incredibly fortunate to be loaned a copy of Karau's combined volume on Branch Line Termini - there's a lovely full-page panoramic photo of Fairford from the 1930s taken from the roadbridge (F6 for those with the book). It shows a Metro Tank ready to depart with a three-coach train of Clerestories, and a Pannier in the distance shunting a Goods Train in the yard.  Both trains are on the same continuous line - but either side of the trap point that marks the break between running line and Yard.

 

My space is much tighter, but I should be OK as long as I keep Goods Trains short and clear the running line and run round (the engine can go onto the shed road for water when the passenger train arrives).

 

One thing worthy of note in that photo (and, I think, other photos I've seen too) is that wagons in the Goods Shed Loop Siding are parked across the second crossover in a continuous rake of vehicles, suggesting perhaps that this crossover wasn't as important for operations as the first one before the Goods Shed - a view backed up by the placement of the point for the later, additional Mileage siding before the second crossover too. 

 

While we've both noted it's easier to make changes in Anyrail I also need to be mindful of the following comment I made in a post in the first run of my planning thread on May 19th:  "I need to get something up and running quickly and easily (so I don’t lose interest)" - I'd planned to get past baseboards and track laying by the end of August, especially as my free time gets very limited now we're into September.  I'd best get a move on...

[Zomboid]

Layout building is a winter activity anyway

It looks like you're pretty much there with the plan though, so assuming the space remains available it's just the finer details. Also have you got somewhere suitable to store the boards when your daughter wants the room? And will it be easy to get them there?

[Keith Addenbrooke]

27 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Layout building is a winter activity anyway

It looks like you're pretty much there with the plan though, so assuming the space remains available it's just the finer details. Also have you got somewhere suitable to store the boards when your daughter wants the room? And will it be easy to get them there?

Thanks - I’m afraid my year works the other way round: September to May is very busy, then it gets gradually quieter until the end of August.   My outhouse / workshop also has no heating, but unfortunately the baseboards I spent time repairing and preparing for the original 8’ x 4’ layout aren’t suitable for this project.  I do have some kits to build / finish and my micro-layout needs scenery, so I have other WIP if this has to wait a bit now.  I also have Jenkins‘ book to enjoy.
 

The question of storage is a good one - as the room in question is the smallest one, there are a couple of options elsewhere, depending on who else is at home, as long as I can store the boards vertically.  I won’t be taking them into the Cellar .

[The Stationmaster]

Keith, which timetable do you have in mind as the basis for your operation?  An 'early' or a 'later' one (although the basic patterns didn't vary overmuch)?

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Keith, which timetable do you have in mind as the basis for your operation?  An 'early' or a 'later' one (although the basic patterns didn't vary overmuch)?

Ideally I’d like to be able to try out a variety - as you say, the basic pattern didn’t change much, so as long as the basic track plan works, I should be OK.  In the books I have - plus the Service Timetables you’ve shared here, I think I have more than I need. I don’t have authentic rolling stock - but can do a ‘close enough for me’ approximation of some of the photos to have some fun.

 

One loco type I don’t have any more is a Dean Goods - I bought one (Hornby ex-Dapol model, I think) 20 or so years ago but it made a sound as if it was fitted with a Valenta Engine from an HST - and took off like one too!  I no longer have it.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[The Stationmaster]

38 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Ideally I’d like to be able to try out a variety - as you say, the basic pattern didn’t change much, so as long as the basic track plan works, I should be OK.  In the books I have - plus the Service Timetables you’ve shared here, I think I have more than I need. I don’t have authentic rolling stock - but can do a ‘close enough for me’ approximation of some of the photos to have some fun.

 

One loco type I don’t have any more is a Dean Goods - I bought one (Hornby ex-Dapol model, I think) 20 or so years ago but it made a sound as if it was fitted with a Valenta Engine from an HST - and took off like one too!  I no longer have it.

Looking again at the 1948 service you should be able to easily deal with the morning service on the finalised (hopefully) track plan albeit at the expense of keeping down the length of the freight trains and possibly the number of wagons on hand.  Shunting the latter in older times could often be a bigger problem than anything else but very sensibly the original second crossover made that job a lot easier at Fairford.

 

Depending on period a 2251 might well be more appropriate than a Dean Goods. 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Update:

 

Having settled on a BLT plan inspired by Fairford, the conversation drew to a natural close thinking through operating scenarios from Service Timetables.  These showed:

 

1.  This small layout can be operated largely as Fairford.

2.  It’s easy to see why a Carriage Siding was added (which I don’t really have room for).

 

I’m updating the thread because, while adjustments during construction are normal, what has already transpired has come as a complete surprise…

 

GW Branch Line (IV) – Epilogue: The Plan I’m building

 

I’ll explain why I had another look here first of all, then share the final twist in a post I’m still writing up, before ending the Series by describing the happy ending that is the layout I’ve started building (and I have started).

 

1.  The Trailer (with Spoiler Alert)

 

I planned to build the baseboards to fit the plan, so I needed to be confident I wouldn’t lose interest, especially without my preferred option of a continuous run.  All looked good, but when I started checking measurements and clearances using rolling stock, the Yard end of the Station looked like it could become quite crowded with three trains present.  I felt I should compare it with an alternative just to be sure.  I needed to get started quickly, but wanted to see if another option using my track and buildings could accommodate three trains in the station.  I could make a choice and press on.

 

But that’s not quite what happened... (Please be aware: a lot of humble pie is going to be served this weekend):

Edited October 2, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2.  “The Plan” (in which things come together rather quickly)

 

It was easy to come up with an alternative idea with everything I wanted, apart from the Loading Dock by the Station (my Medium and Long Points need too much space):

 

 

As I wasn’t trying to copy Fairford with this one I didn’t need a third loop line, but a Carriage Siding was a must.  The plan fell into place when I put the points for the Engine Shed and the Sidings back-to-back.  It introduced a gentle curve while also giving me two straight Goods sidings for easier shunting.  I would be leaning over the Station to operate the layout, but was planning low baseboards to clear the bed under the right-hand end.  I liked everything about this plan.  But then I had an idea.

 

With the end of the line curving towards the front of the board, I wondered if I could carry it round to the Fiddle Yard and have a continuous run on a lift-out.  It only took a few minutes to develop this further and add a passing station with a loading dock siding instead:

 

 

Entirely by accident, I found I was looking at an improved version of one of the final layout designs from my first planning thread: GW Adventure – a track planning tale:

 

 

Although I’d ruled out a continuous run for my revised space, here was the one plan that would change my mind.  This new version had a large overhang over the bed, and the bottom right was very close to the door.  Could it be engineered to fit better…?  It could!

 

 

By moving the Carriage Siding to the lower Station and shortening the Goods Sidings, I reduced the overhang to 9” and cleared the door. Each loop is 50” long, enough for a 40” 3-coach train.  To increase the operating well, I adopted a maxim I was used to from micro-layout design: there is no minimum baseboard size or width.  The largest baseboards are 38” x 16”, within the recommended range for a portable layout.

 

I’d need a “crawl-under” entrance to accommodate the passing station points, but this can be removed as it is all portable.  The section over the bed could also be supported.  It looked like I had a plan!

Edited October 9, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[Keith Addenbrooke]

3.  Testing the Layout (in which all is revealed)

 

Having previously ruled out a continuous run, I wanted to check this idea for the same reason as before: to be certain before sawing wood.  I ran two “tests.”

 

First, I re-ran an operating sequence for the original version of the continuous run layout.  It uses ideas from the early days of American Model Railroading that have long-inspired me, and which I wrote about at the start of my initial thread: GW Adventure - a track planning tale.  This kind of operation isn’t for everyone, although in one sense it is authentic, as the ideas I’ll describe were being published when the GWR was still in existence!

 

This is how it works (using the original continuous run plan).  There are two engines and rolling stock for three trains - enough for a Branch Line.  A day begins like this:

 

 

Lower Station serves as a Terminus, while Upper Station is for passing.  Trains are made up at Lower Station, then run round the layout making as many loops and stops as needed.  A train may pause at Upper Station while the other Train runs, as I can only control one at a time.  The first train of the day will be a 2-coach Up Branch Passenger.

 

After a long run it will arrives at its destination (Lower Station again), and the coaches will return to their Siding. The emphasis is on the journey the train makes, not the small layout size.  While the Engine returns to the Shed for water and more coal the Down Passenger arrives; the Engine runs round and it departs as an Up train.  After a good run it will stop in the Upper Station.

 

The Branch Engine then prepares a short Down Goods train.  As this Goods train makes its way along the Branch, it may stop at one Station to shunt the Mill Siding, or at another to drop off vans for the Goods Shed (in reality it is Lower Station each time).  When it reaches its destination the Engine returns to Passenger duty and the sequence continues.

 

Trains can be swapped for each new ‘day,’ and if I have a wartime layout I don’t need Station nameboards.  Although trains terminate in the direction they set off in (like real trains), the compromise is they don’t return from the direction they set off in (like a real terminus).  Personally, I’m OK with this, as I like the way it lets trains run while giving them a sense of purpose. 

 

This test showed one change I needed, to bring the Carriage Siding back to the Main Station:

 

 

The Goods Sidings are short, but the Guards Van can be stored by the Engine Shed while the Branch Passenger runs, along with Goods Vehicles waiting for a train to get to the second station.  Overnight, I think Coaches could be stabled in front of the Goods Shed, as it is not a running line.  Trap points (T.P.) will be at the end of this loop and on the passing station sidings.  In his version for the 8’ x 4’ space @Harlequin

added two Exchange Sidings at the Passing Station, and the Goods Siding here can be used when swapping wagons in the same way.  There was just one last thing to check...

Edited October 9, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[Keith Addenbrooke]

4.  The Second Test (in which there is a very Happy Ending)

 

My second test was to imagineer a ‘dream layout’ and see how it compared: does this plan reflect my ‘ideal’ layout?  A garage layout might be possible when I retire, so I gave myself just two criteria:

 

1.  A feasible proposal I would actually build.

2.  Sufficiently fulfilling (for me) I wouldn’t look at other plans and wish I was building them instead.

 

It was not a foregone conclusion, but the two ideas I liked were these:

 

 

 

For me, this sealed it.

 

It had always been understood that a central operating well could improve my original GW Branch Line plan if there was room, as discussed with @Harlequin at the beginning of the original planning thread.  Now, by accepting the compromise of a “crawl-under” and smaller baseboards (a 30% reduction overall from the 8’ x 4’ plan), I could still build this layout after all. 

 

So I am .

 

 

Keith.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[AndyB]

At the end of the day you've got to go with what you really want. And I think the roundy roundy was what you were really after. Happy for you.

 

Now. About the build thread we were hoping for? 

[Zomboid]

Well that's quite a big change. But it's great that you've found a way to get what you really want..

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 02/10/2020 at 22:10, AndyB said:

At the end of the day you've got to go with what you really want. And I think the roundy roundy was what you were really after. Happy for you.

 

Now. About the build thread we were hoping for? 

 

On 03/10/2020 at 07:00, Zomboid said:

Well that's quite a big change. But it's great that you've found a way to get what you really want..

Thank you.  I think it’s also important to acknowledge that the positive and helpful way the discussions have developed has also been well received in the important parallel conversation that has been taking place at home about best how to accommodate a good layout.  The changes I’ve had to make to my criteria along the way have been seen as steps forward by the family, building on what I’ve learned and applying it as part of an enjoyable hobby.

 

In particular, the advice on not using the cellar has helped us prevent damage through damp to the things we keep in the cellar, while the practical suggestions that will help me build a layout in a bedroom have all made sense to the family.  
 

In terms of modelling, what I’ve learned about the Fairford Branch will influence how I go about modelling the details on the layout, and shaped my thinking about a ‘dream layout’ scenario (even if the designs look different).  The connection back to the first thread and the help I received there is obvious now - which just goes to show how everything really has helped.

 

I can genuinely say thankyou to all, from us all.  Keith.

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke