A New Plan - LMS / BR(M) BLT

[Guest WM183]

Hi all.

After coming to grips with just how big 7mm locos and stock are, I have decided to go "Back to the drawing board" and try a different direction. Now, nothing has been built or indeed bought yet, save a few wagons and a Dapol pannier tank, and a single piece of Peco bullhead track to test with. However, the time is here to begin planning what to do next. We want to start on the baseboards. The space we have is sadly fixed by a window on one end and a door on the other.

I have a space 14 feet (just about 420 cm) long, and 60 cm / 2 feet deep. This should be enough for a reasonable BLT, with plenty of opportunities to detail scenes and people. I would like to be able to have a runaround loop length for a class 4 tank + 2 60' coaches (the biggest loco likely to ever run here) or a class 4F 0-6-0 plus 4 standard 4 wheel wagons and brake van; in other words, 4 feet or 1.2 meters between fouling points. The engines likely to run here, are 3F or 4F 0-6-0s, perhaps Ivatt 2-6-2ts or 2-6-0s, a Jinty, the Pannier, and perhaps class 3 or 4 passenger tanks. No 4-6-0s, no class 8F or 9F. Small to medium engines. I'd like to have a few places to shunt wagons to; a goods shed, the ubiquitous coal dealer, and perhaps 1 or 2 industries. I will need to incorporate the fiddle yard on the right end of the layout, and if I leave 4  inches between tracks that means I could fit 4 tracks and leave enough room along the front for a low relief building or two; good place for my industries.

I'd also like the opportunity for a house or two, sheds, a little barn. A stone wall with sheep grazing. Detailing and building the structures and all is as much fun to me as running trains. I'd love a row of buildings, sheds, and so on - small and characterful structures perhaps, like those on Bude Quay. I am by any definition a builder first. Here is a scribble, but it is only that; I am not married to anything here and i am sure my sizes of things are inaccurate, but I hoped it would help show what I am intending. 

 

So... can it work?

 

Amanda

 

 

[Fastdax]

Hi Amanda,

 

I think that plan looks very good and you've clearly thought about what you want to run.

 

Just a suggestion: if you take the line that runs though the Goods Shed right up to the end of the board at a right-angle, you have the option of adding another fiddle board on the left-hand end in the future. You could disguise the exit with a gate (as on my layout below) or with a removable wall and buffer stop.

 

Following with interest!

 

[Simond]

Amanda

 

a few thoughts which you can chew over.  It is a difficult challenge to create something credible in a small space. 

 

• I would not put the coal drops on the headshunt, as a wagon being unloaded will stop you running round.  Better to put a water crane there.
• Is it for exhibition or home or both?
• I assume the viewing side is the lower one in your plan. 
• If the upper edge is against the wall, will you be able to marshall trains in your fiddle yard with scenic buildings in the way? 
• What kind of couplers will you use?
• Goods sheds range from large to enormous.  Will it overshadow everything?  Perhaps a track-side lock-up or a couple of corrugated sheds and a loading bank/platform?
• keeping enough space for road vehicles is a challenge - your truck will need to be able to get to the crane.  inset track can offer some shared space.
• Do you envisage more than one loco at a time?  If it is a "one engine in steam" branch, do you need the signal box, would a ground frame be more prototypical.
• My Greater Windowledge Railway (See linky thingy below) was a similar approach with a dockside theme - it was a bit smaller, it may provide more thinking fodder!

Hope these are helpful

Simon

[Guest WM183]

Hi folks.

 

Thanks much for the replies! Duncan, my layout will only ever be in this one room, and unless I knock down an outside wall and extend the house, it won't ever grow longer! We may move someday - who knows where we'll be in 10 or 20 years - but for now, it seems unlikely. 

 

Simon, where to begin! Thanks for so many well thought out points. I'll run down the list and see.

 

1) Good point. Water crane here! It could be a tank that shares with the station, too.

2) This one is for home. For exhibiting I'd build a smaller, goods only type thing which I hope to do sometime™

3) The viewing side is the lower one. My bad!
4) I think I will be able to work with the trains over there. The buildings won't be that high I dont think, and I plan to use...

5) ...Dinghams! If I can manage to get hold of some, that is. Stupid global pandemic. If not, 3 links, but I am very tall (186 cm/6 foot) and my husband has 4 inches on me! Definitely some sort of automatic coupling on all coaches though.
6) I do very much want to keep the goods shed. I like the idea of a few larger buildings. A goods shed with a little office and weighbridge, and coal drops somewhere, is more important to me than the other industries. If I must move the goods shed and the like over to the right end, I shall! I could put a cattle dock or simply a few houses and the like at the right end by the station, or perhaps a little engine shed for the Jinty. See no 8.

7) I'd like to have more than one engine at a time. If possible, being able to work the goods while the local passenger comes by is a plus. Another argument for the goods shed and all to be over at the right edge, I guess. I like the signal box, though a Ground Frame is more prototypical. Hmm.

8) I love that layout. I had debated doing something quayside (or canalside) but am unsure if I wish to go that route. You have quite a density of track, and that makes it look like a proper freight yard. Should I keep mine sparse, or try and find another siding a home?

 

Thanks much!

Amanda

[Harlequin]

Hi,

 

Combining some of the thoughts above you could retain the goods shed but make it low relief at the far left hand side of the layout. Thus, you still have a shed with track notionally running through it, it's just that the door is perpetually closed and you only ever see vans stood in front of it.

Then you don't have to leave room for road vehicles to access the shed because that happens off-scene and there's more yard space in front of the shed for your yard crane.

 

 

Access to the fiddle yard is a definite worry. You need to be absolutely sure that you will be able to operate it as required in that position. Just assuming or hoping that it will be OK could lead to disappointment.

 

Where will locos and rolling stock be stored when they are not on the layout? (The answer to that might make a difference to the fiddle yard design.)

 

Is there room to widen the layout in the middle so that front edge bows out by, say, 100-150mm? That would give you a bit more area for sidings and/or scenery if it was possible.

[brossard]

I think I might have mentioned this previously.  One thing I noticed when planning my layout was the long length of standard Peco turnouts.  The diverging road radius is quite large giving a long fouling distance.

 

My solution was to build some short turnouts based on Peco small rad 00 turnouts.  I printed the template available from Peco's site and blew it up by 199% (trial and error).  It has to be larger than 175% due to the gauge difference.  When built, you end with something in between the two.

 

 

This is a shot down my layout.  The layout is now running and I have tried all my locos through the small rad. crossovers.  They all negotiate it without trouble, even my longest loco - J39.  In fact everything works fine.  The only exception is that my J39 is uncomfortable with the single slip.  I based it on Peco's 00 gauge offering and it is really too small.  I plan to rebuild the slip using Peco's 0 gauge double slip template.  Waiting for Peco chairs to come back in stock.

 

Note that there a couple of trap points protecting the main line.  These work and are interlocked with the first turnout motor.  If you forget to change the turnout you will wind up red faced .

 

HTH and happy layout planning.

 

John

Edited August 26, 2020 by brossard

[Guest WM183]

Hi all!

Thank you for the further replies. I plan to store the locos and stock... well, in the fiddle yard, for the most part. I will be building a cabinet on a neighboring wall to hold the inevitable overflow as well. I mean... I could sacrifice that space and just say that it is only for the fiddle yard, but that then means some sort of turnout ladder or a traverser. Neither is a terribly exciting prospect for me. 

I'd *really* like the goods shed to be a free standing structure. I'd prioritize plenty of goods workings over platform length if i had to. 

[brossard]

Fiddle yards using turnouts waste space IMO.  You are better off with sector plate, you can use all the length.  Some of the layout plans in your previous threads showed these.  I have a sector plate that is 5' long with 3 tracks.  Obviously yours would need to be shorter.

 

 

Nothing fancy.  Carriage bolt pivot at the far end.  The plate simply bears on the upright.  I have since added an intermediate support because it tended to sag under the weight of stock.  Some care is needed to ensure the rail ends interface with the layout rails.

 

As an initial effort I made the Scalescenes small goods shed:

 

 

I used Evergreen siding for the walls.  Brass tube for the downspouts.

 

I purchased the Lcut small goods shed that I plan to use instead:

 

http://lcut.co.uk/index.php?product=B 70-08&title=B 70-08

 

John

[Hal Nail]

I would recommend getting hold of a point template and sketching things out on a roll of wallpaper to help you see just how much space is needed. Plonk a few old boxes on to represent buildings having worked out the scale length and height.

 

If fact probably worth having a box to represent a coach, tender loco etc.

 

[brossard]

Quite right Hal.  Peco have templates of their turnouts on their site for download.

 

I used scrap foam core to make templates of coaches and locos.

 

John

[pwr]

If your fiddle yard is relatively short you could consider the use of cassettes?

 

 

Paul R

[Hal Nail]

1 minute ago, brossard said:

Quite right Hal. 

Been thinking about starting mine for 30 years so i ought to know the theory by now  

[Harlequin]

Or plan it in the computer where you can use electronic versions of the Peco templates and rolling stock, you don't need the full size space available and the templates won't blow away...

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Harlequin

[Hal Nail]

2 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Or plan it in the computer where you can use electronic versions of the Peco templates and rolling stock, you don't need the full size space available and the templates won't blow away...

 

 

My concern was the sheer size of buildings isn't fully apparent from plans. You read time and time again when people start making them they are thrown by the impact even after planning!

 

On my work bench a coach looks fine. Then I put two together with a loco and realise 1/3 of the room has suddenly gone! 

[brossard]

A lot of building kits give you the footprint size.  I used foam core again to get a sense of whether particular buildings would fit:

 

 

The village road has been roughed in with foam core.  To the right you can see foam core templates I made for the terraced houses (currently under construction ) and a shop or pub next to them (Scalescenes).  That is the station masters house from Fine Scale Buildings:

 

http://shop.finescalebuildings.com/product/station-masters-house

 

John

Edited August 26, 2020 by brossard

[Harlequin]

Hi again Amanda,

 

Do you really need passenger facilities? What if the layout was just a goods yard?

 

Then your goods shed would be "centre stage", the focus of the layout, you wouldn't have to allow for the (relatively) big 60ft coaches and you'd have more room for goods sidings.

 

And you could still have all the non-railway ephemera around the outside, of course.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Harlequin

[brossard]

You have a great point Phil.  I pointed out in the previous thread, Pawson's Prize Winning Pickles:

I found this interesting and it is compact.

 

Another thing that I have found and plan to do is Scalescenes Canal Wharf Boxfile:

 

https://scalescenes.com/product/ly02-canal-wharf-boxfile-layout/

 

There is another kit, Industrial Boxfile, that is also interesting:

 

https://scalescenes.com/product/ly01-industrial-boxfile-layout/

 

Although designed for 00, they can be scaled up to 0.

 

Just some ideas for those who are space challenged.

 

John

 

[Guest WM183]

Hi all.

I am ok with sacrificing passenger running, or cutting it down to one coach. My husband *really* wants some passenger capacity though. A sector plate seems doable to me, and in fact, is likely what I will do; I can handle that I believe. Ladders of turnouts waste a LOT of space that I frankly would rather not waste! I might be able to get a 4 road sector plate in, with a bit of care. Cassettes are out; knowing my luck I would drop them repeatedly, with catastrophic results!

But yes, a busy goods yard? Works for me. Still wondering if 7mm is right.

[34006]

Hi Amanda,Could you bear using a single car DMU,or even (shock!Horror! Probe!)a 1400 and autocoach?(Other Companies variants are available!) for your passenger services?

 

ATB

 

Phil.

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, WM183 said:

Hi all.

I am ok with sacrificing passenger running, or cutting it down to one coach. My husband *really* wants some passenger capacity though.
 

...

But yes, a busy goods yard? Works for me. Still wondering if 7mm is right.

Well... You are trying to squeeze a lot into the space at that scale... Some serious compromises will be needed.

[railwayrod]

Hi Amanda.

 

May I be permitted to say something that has not been said on this thread before. At the end of the day it is YOUR layout and you know what you want. You could ask hundreds of people for suggestions and you will get hundreds of suggestions. There has been some really good ideas expressed above most of which will work. In my view your original sketch is fine with perhaps a few tweaks here and there. So I suggest that you should now move forward with this interesting project and enjoy the ride. I would certainly try to increase the width of the baseboard at one end if possible but also get a cheap roll of lining paper and draw it our full size. At that stage you will know what needs to be tweaked and where before going to the expense of buying timber, etc. The longer you leave it the more confusing it becomes. My 0 gauge layout Ramchester is housed in a purpose built shed and for ages I pussy footed around as to what I should do in it. N, 00, narrow gauge etc and until my good friend Howard took me to task by turning up one day with a plan for a gauge 0 terminus/fiddle yard design which I liked and I was away. Now some 10 years later Ramchester reached the stage of becoming "Railway of the Month" in the April edition of Railway Modeller, thus my boyhood dream was realised.

 

Of one thing I am certain once the 7mm bug has bitten you will never look back. 

 

Rod

[Guest WM183]

I do love 7mm. Would shorter pre grouping era 4 wheel coaches be a better choice? I do debate something LNER or a predecessor at times too. GWR panniers, freight and perhaps one with an auto coach, are another option. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by WM183
Clarity

[brossard]

Rod is right, the 7mm bug bites deep.  I can't imagine why it took me so long to see the light.  Now that I have, no turning back.

 

My friend does pre group North British in 4mm EM and now 7mm.  He tells me he has ordered a pair of coaches - 4 and 6 wheel.  I will get to build them - lucky me. They will need lining so he will do that.

 

There's nothing wrong with a single coach passenger service.  GWR is the only RTR game in town for aurocoach service.

 

John

[Harlequin]

I plotted something to scale using Peco Code 124 parts and assuming a 3 road 1200mm sector plate to check what fits:

 

This is just a quick hack up and there are no doubt better ways to set it out, but:

You can see that two 60ft coaches can fit within the clearance points (the red-ish circles).

The throw of the sector plate brings it close to the industry track.

Not much room for the goods shed, though.

[Guest WM183]

Harlequin, 

 

Thank you for the plan. Seeing it drawn on a proper program helps sort the brains a lot. I wonder if I could fannagle a way to get the goods shed and crane bits in the bottom left or right. I guess ideally it should be on the same " side" of the trackwork as the station and all, but I guess you dance with who brung ya. I wonder if it's best to just consider the area of the fiddle yard as a non starter for scenicking too and just keep the whole area free?

Edited August 27, 2020 by WM183
Clarity