Mail bag recovery apparatus

[wmdavies50]

Does anyone know of model in 4mm of a line side mail bag recovery apparatus as used on the GWR/BR?

[Steamport Southport]

Someone used to do a kit for a GWR version. Mainly Trains I think. Or possibly Mikes Models.

 

There is also the Bachmann version.

 

https://anticsonline.uk/Product/Bachmann-44-045-Scenecraft-Mail-Traductors-OO_N105690315

 

 

 

Jason

[Michael Hodgson]

I didn't think the particular company like the GWR really made much difference - the "apparatus" was a GPO requirement and the nature of the TPO service was that they ran across the metals of all the companies so it all had to be compatible.  The variation would have been more to do with local circumstances like how many mail bags might need to be picked up.

 

The Bachmann model looks a lot more realistic than the rather crude working version (particularly its delivery side) that used to be sold by Triang, but to be fair that did work reasonably well for what it was.  Doing this by DCC instead of the Triang mechanical ramps might be an interesting project but definitely well beyond my capabilities.  Moving parts both on board and lineside, plus sound effects.

 

If you want to see one working for real, the Great Central Railway has one set up at Quorn Station, looks very similar to the Bachmann job.  They sometimes advertise demonstration mail trains (or least before Covid, they did).  These have special permission to run at higher speed than is permitted for the normal service and consequently aren't allowed to carry passengers, as the equipment needs a decent speed to be effective.

[Michael Hodgson]

Whilst there are quite a lot of YouTube videos of it in operation, most of them don't show very well how it worked, particularly as regards the delivery, not least because Health & Safety quite rightly won't let you stand too close to flying mailbags that sometimes don't quite land where they're supposed to.  This clip is better than most as it shows it close up and in slow motion.  Also, on this particular run, drop pick and and drop off were done from different vans

 

 

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=AwrEzeJn10ZfghIALTR2BQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBzOGV0c3MzBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMjk-?p=great+central+railway+tpo&vid=a3f339141ec71d29e031918451a8febe&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOVP.KNC1xi3KOBry7WFdoUCxrgEsDh%26pid%3DApi%26h%3D225%26w%3D300%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DSnSVN4PAkGY&tit=Great+<b>Central<%2Fb>+<b>Railway<%2Fb>%3A+Travelling+Post+Office+Demonstration&c=28&h=225&w=300&l=65&sigr=CtLTV6LPiCL5&sigt=G9YwX8_LqNtZ&sigi=TfXCWEnsSZS2&age=1476461245&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&fr=mcafee&tt=b

 

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

There was definitely GWR designed apparatus. There were drawings in one of the books or magazines such as Great Western Journal.

 

They had a proper name, something like transductor.

 

 

 

Jason

[Gordon A]

Didcot has a working example on one of their demonstration tracks.

[knitpick]

The old Hornby Dublo working mail coach apparatus was a lot cruder looking than even the Tri-Ang one - but did have the advantage of push button electric operation..  There was a 4th rail by the pick up and drop off.  Power to that 4th rail caused the van to both drop off the bag it was carrying and pick up a new bag.

[Il Grifone]

6 hours ago, knitpick said:

The old Hornby Dublo working mail coach apparatus was a lot cruder looking than even the Tri-Ang one - but did have the advantage of push button electric operation..  There was a 4th rail by the pick up and drop off.  Power to that 4th rail caused the van to both drop off the bag it was carrying and pick up a new bag.

 

The pick up was (is I've just repaired two them*) quite realistic. But the set down was awful. The real thing hooked the bag from the van into a net.

There is an LMS film about the service on Youtube somewhere.

 

Irrelevant waffle alert 

 

* One buzzed loudly because the operating lever couldn't reach the electromagnet - adjusting the position of the latter cured that, Some oil (despite the Dublo instructions) helps too. The other had an open circuit coil. Needless to say on the inside of the coil where the wire comes out of the former. It's clamped between this and the iron core....  I wound off what seemed like miles of wire and then wound it back (I should have used new wire but didn't). My coil was somewhat fatter than the original, despite making a winder (from Meccano to keep it in the family). Still it works which was the object of the exercise. 20.1 ohm of 0.25mm diameter (according to my micrometer) wire, which is 33s.w.g. if anyone is interested. It works out to about 70 feet of wire.

I did use new wire on the E20R Meccano motor I rewound (one of the large reversible 20V A.C. ones). Not that I  had any choice, the field core was burnt out. Luckily I could unwind the remains and measure the length. Something like 20 metres of 29 s.w.g. IIRC. A clean up and lubrication and away she went. She rattles a bit, but, seeing she's about as old as her current carer, has every excuse! Factoring in the postage, the new wire cost me more than the motor.

One of these:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Meccano-E20R-Electric-Motor-/382127765325

 

The missing plastic insulation on the 'resistor' won't make any difference to the operation as it's a suppressor capacitor. What's left probably still works. Mine are still intact! 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Il Grifone]

To make up for the waffle (it's only LMS but you can't have everything):

 

http://irps-wl.org.uk/restoration-projects/british/lms-tpo/83-night-mail-museum

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmciuKsBOi0

Edited August 27, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Dagworth]

What is/was the arrangement that holds the mailbag at the top of the arm of the post, or on the traductor arm on the carriage? Obviously it has to hold the bag securely but release when required. It never shows clearly in any of the videos.

 

Andi

[Compound2632]

17 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

There was definitely GWR designed apparatus. There were drawings in one of the books or magazines such as Great Western Journal.

 

They had a proper name, something like transductor.

 

There will, I suppose, have been drawings made by the Swindon Carriage & Wagon Drawing Office, just as there will have been Wolverton drawings, Derby drawings*, etc., but the design will have been common to all, specified by the GPO. 

 

The traductor arm was the part that swung out to hold the mailbag out from the side of the carriage, to be caught by the lineside net, and possibly the equivalent part of the lineside equipment, holding the bag out to be caught in the TPO net. From post-classical Latin traductor, a person who takes something to another place.

 

*For the Midland 6-wheel TPOs of 1878:

Drg. 361 - Details of Catching Gear Travelling Post Office

Drg. 362 - Details of Ironwork for Catching Gear Travelling Post Office

Drg. 363 - Details of Castings for Catching Gear Travelling Post Office

and for their Edwardian successors:

Drg. 2486 - Arrangement of Mail Bag Delivery Arm on Post Office Tender

The Midland Railway Study Centre has this drawing but not the 1878 drawings.

[73c]

3 hours ago, Dagworth said:

What is/was the arrangement that holds the mailbag at the top of the arm of the post, or on the traductor arm on the carriage? Obviously it has to hold the bag securely but release when required. It never shows clearly in any of the videos.

 

Andi

On the Standard ( or Gallows ) there's a peg, on the strap holding the bag below is a hole, as the strap is placed on the peg a shaped piece of metal acts as a catch.

On the Traductor arm, there is a similar arrangement but this has a snap down catch to hold it in place and just to make sure that the catch doesn't come open, it's tied with 'hairy ' string, this gives the right type of break when the pouches are being dropped off. That's me, hanging up the pouches, towards the end of the video.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

It's nice to know there's a Society dedicated to this topic. It's the TPO & Seapost Society.

 

Quote

An operation almost unique to British TPOs was the dropping and picking up of mailbags while the train to which the TPO was attached travelled past the pick up point at anything up to 80 miles per hour (128kph). The bags, weighing from 20 to 50 pounds (10-23kg), were attached to a folding bracket, (the traductor), and swung out from the side of the TPO to be caught in a net on the ground, at the same time bags would be hung from a line side pole (the standard) to be caught up in a net that was extended from the side of the TPO. Early experiments took place on the first TPO in 1838, but it was not until 1852 that a final design was agreed between the Post Office and the various railway companies. John Dicker was an Inspector of Mail coaches, and his modification of an existing design remained in use from 1852 until 1971, when the last exchange of mailbags took place at Penrith in Cumbria.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

The TPO & Seapost Society has kindly hosted a map of the TPO network as it was in 1958.

 

http://www.tpo-seapost.org.uk/tpo2/pdf/tpogbnetwork1958.pdf

 

But there's a "gotcha" ...

 

Quote

In 1940 all 72 mainland TPOs and SCs and the 4 TPOs running in Northern Ireland were withdrawn. After 1946 with the gradual restoration of the TPO network, (and the nationalisation of the railway network), many daytime and some of the cross-country TPOs were not re-instated.

 

So it looks like the 1958 network is a diminished version of what existed pre-WW2.

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Would it be too much like Thread Drift to mention places we've found the lineside Mail Apparatus?

 

The three I've stumbled-on so far are all in GWR territory.

 

1) Grampound Road - three posts, north of the station.

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=50.31925&lon=-4.92299&layers=168&b=1&marker=50.186430,-5.418167

 

2) Wiveliscombe on the Taunton-Barnstaple line

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.04054&lon=-3.30638&layers=168&b=1

 

3) East Anstey, also on the Taunton-Barnstaple line

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.02351&lon=-3.61633&layers=168&b=1

 

Anyone found any others?

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Your first post shows apparatus on both sides of the line.  Provision of pickup apparatus didn't necessarily imply set-down apparatus and vice versa.  Two on the same side of the line may have  been both types, or it may have been two pick-up posts if the volume was such that a single post wasn't enough.

 

At the village in question it seems unlikely that they would pick up in the Down direction or set down mails from the Up.

These posts don't look particularly accessible for poor old Postman Pat in his little red (horse-drawn?) van.

[Stuart]

Did a TPO use the Taunton-Barnstaple line?
 

I do wonder if the Mail Apparatus at Wiveliscombe and East Anstey is actually Token Exchange apparatus?

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Did a TPO use the Taunton-Barnstaple line?

 

Very possible before 1914.

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

Did a TPO use the Taunton-Barnstaple line?
 

I do wonder if the Mail Apparatus at Wiveliscombe and East Anstey is actually Token Exchange apparatus?

 

 

A perfectly valid question. Offline, I'm asking a friend who worked for the Ordnance Survey (as a surveyor) how they might tell the difference (or not) between "Mail Apparatus" (as shown on OS maps of the period) and "Token Exchange apparatus".

[KeithMacdonald]

Over on the Brent topic, @The Fatadder has just mentioned Mail Apparatus being on the map just east of Brent station.

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=50.42786&lon=-3.82799&layers=168&b=1&marker=50.186430,-5.418167

 

Perhaps that's more consistent with "main line" working?

 

I've just remembered something else from that era, it was an account of Trans-Atlantic steamers arriving in Plymouth, and the race between Southern and GWR to get passengers to London. But even more important than the passengers, and given higher priority, was the mail. Put on a train ahead of the passengers, to race through the night to London. Picking up more mail from the real "mail apparatus" on the main line?

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

I've just remembered something else from that era, it was an account of Trans-Atlantic steamers arriving in Plymouth, and the race between Southern and GWR to get passengers to London. But even more important than the passengers, and given higher priority, was the mail. Put on a train ahead of the passengers, to race through the night to London. Picking up more mail from the real "mail apparatus" on the main line?

 

The Ocean Mail specials had stowage vans only, I believe. The Great Western took these as running via Bristol vans for the north could be detached there (this was before the Castle Cary cut-off). The London & South Western took the passengers up to Waterloo. 

 

Several of those Ocean Mail vans were the first carriages recorded travelling at a speed of 100 mph.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

A perfectly valid question. Offline, I'm asking a friend who worked for the Ordnance Survey (as a surveyor) how they might tell the difference (or not) between "Mail Apparatus" (as shown on OS maps of the period) and "Token Exchange apparatus".

 

The surveyors worked according to the Director General's Instructions to Field Examiners. The 1905 edition used to be on the OS website but is no more; fortunately it has been reposted here.

[KeithMacdonald]

46 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The surveyors worked according to the Director General's Instructions to Field Examiners. The 1905 edition used to be on the OS website but is no more; fortunately it has been reposted here.

 

An excellent reference  indeed.

 

But does it shed any light on the OS distinction between "Mail Apparatus" and "Token Exchange apparatus"?

 

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

But does it shed any light on the OS distinction between "Mail Apparatus" and "Token Exchange apparatus"?

 

No but I think it shows the field examiners would have been encouraged to find out. 

 

Anyway, taking Wiveliscombe as an example, the "Mail Apparatus" is marked on the 1902 OS 25" survey (but not 1887) whereas I gather the token exchange equipment was installed in the 1930s. 

 

On the other hand, looking at stations on the Somerset & Dorset, which was equipped with token exchange equipment early in the 20th century but which certainly never had mail exchange equipment, there's no sign of the former being marked.

 

The mail exchange equipment was much larger and more noticeable than the token exchange equipment. Also, the token exchange equipment would be sited next to the signalbox, for obvious reasons, rather than a few hundred yards along the line.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Compound2632