4mm DC1 Swan neck lever and quadrant

[Footy]

Other than Bill Bedford's comprehensive DC 1 etched set (which I find hard to find, nowadays) can anyone suggest a source for just the swan necks and quadrants?

 

I think ABS did Whitemetal versions in the past but they are rarer than Hen's ( Swan's!) Teeth.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

We were discussing this the other day, but I can't remember where....

 

 

Seems the Bedford etch has been discontinued.

 

 

Found it.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/157565-gwr-deanchurchward-dc1-brake-gear-etch/

 

 

Jason

Edited August 30, 2020 by Steamport Southport

[Footy]

Eileen's Emporium are still listing DC3 sets which have some of the elements but not the all important swan neck, which I find difficult to form successfully (for which read at all!). 

[Footy]

Eileen's Emporium are still listing DC3 sets which have some of the elements but not the all important swan neck, which I find difficult to form successfully (for which read at all!). 

 

...oops!  Should have followed the link before, replying. 

[Flymo749]

Excuse the cross-post, as the question of GWR DC1 brakes in 4mm has popped up on two different RMWeb threads in close succession.

 

In talking about the DC1 set up, and the swan-neck lever in particular, I believe that this is what is intended:

 

 

The w-irons are from the Scalefour Society, the brake vee is a spare D&S one, and the brake gear is an old 9ft casting - ABS I think.  The nickel silver operating mechanism is an etch that I drew up at the start of lockdown, based on GWR General Arrangement drawings:

 

 

I had a few etched when business at the etchers that I use resumed, as a test on the edge of something else.  Having now built one, I can see that they all work properly.  The next step will be to draw up the other parts that I've used from other sources as part of the same artwork, and have it all etched as a single set.

 

A couple more pictures to show how it fits together, starting with those fiddly brake lever handles:

 

 

During the build process, the swan-neck fitting behind the axleguard:

 

 

And the full layout of the rods underneath.  The centre one is still overlength, as I need to knock up one of the vertical support straps and fix that before I cut it back to length:

 

 

I'll post more of an update when I've designed and tested the other bits, as I need quite a supply of these for my own modelling of the GWR in 1909.  I have quite a number of Coopercraft and Ratio kits for them to go under.

 

Cheers

Paul

[richbrummitt]

2 hours ago, Flymo749 said:

Excuse the cross-post, as the question of GWR DC1 brakes in 4mm has popped up on two different RMWeb threads in close succession.

 

In talking about the DC1 set up, and the swan-neck lever in particular, I believe that this is what is intended:

 

 

The w-irons are from the Scalefour Society, the brake vee is a spare D&S one, and the brake gear is an old 9ft casting - ABS I think.  The nickel silver operating mechanism is an etch that I drew up at the start of lockdown, based on GWR General Arrangement drawings:

 

 

I had a few etched when business at the etchers that I use resumed, as a test on the edge of something else.  Having now built one, I can see that they all work properly.  The next step will be to draw up the other parts that I've used from other sources as part of the same artwork, and have it all etched as a single set.

 

A couple more pictures to show how it fits together, starting with those fiddly brake lever handles:

 

 

During the build process, the swan-neck fitting behind the axleguard:

 

 

And the full layout of the rods underneath.  The centre one is still overlength, as I need to knock up one of the vertical support straps and fix that before I cut it back to length:

 

 

I'll post more of an update when I've designed and tested the other bits, as I need quite a supply of these for my own modelling of the GWR in 1909.  I have quite a number of Coopercraft and Ratio kits for them to go under.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

Paul, 

 

I hate to be the one to point this out but I rather someone said something before you build more if you have not already spotted this:  The brakes should be the other way around in your opening picture since the brake actuating lever lifts the swan neck and the shaft rotates anti-clockwise. This is the opposite of almost every other brake system where with the lever to the right and when driven directly a simple lever rotates the shaft clockwise (the other side often has a cam, lift link or left hand lever to ensure the correct rotation of the cross shaft to apply the brakes). 
 

Kind Regards, 

 

Rich. 

[Flymo749]

7 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

 

Paul, 

 

I hate to be the one to point this out but I rather someone said something before you build more if you have not already spotted this:  The brakes should be the other way around in your opening picture since the brake actuating lever lifts the swan neck and the shaft rotates anti-clockwise. This is the opposite of almost every other brake system where with the lever to the right and when driven directly a simple lever rotates the shaft clockwise (the other side often has a cam, lift link or left hand lever to ensure the correct rotation of the cross shaft to apply the brakes). 
 

Kind Regards, 

 

Rich. 

 

Hi Rich,

 

Thanks for noting that.  I was aware of it, from the GA drawing.  The DC1 should have left over right, rather than the more conventional right over left that you find on DC3 and Morton brakes.  Chapter and verse, as always, at http://www.gwr.org.uk/nowagonbrakes.html

 

The old casting was one of the very few that I have in my brake gear spares box which is a 9ft wheelbase.  I definitely didn't have any proper DC1 brakegear at all.  As this was a proof-of-concept exercise, that I could design the parts and that they would fit properly, I'm not fussed about the overall accuracy.  The Coopercraft N13 loco wagon was an old second hand one that I stripped the paint from, and I'm using as a "test mule".  I may rattle it up to be a completed model, but it's unlikely to have appeared on the GER in the East End of London in 1909...

 

The key thing for me was to prove that I could fit the swan-neck between the face of the wheel and the axleguard in P4.  I can comfortably do that using compensated w-irons.  I'm less confident that I can do that with Bill Bedford sprung w-irons, as the bearing carriers are looking to occupy the same space.  I'll find out when I do the next test build, which will be when I've drawn and etched the brake rods, shoes, supports, etc, as a full unit.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

 

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

The brakes should be the other way around in your opening picture since the brake actuating lever lifts the swan neck and the shaft rotates anti-clockwise.

 

That's the one bit of the DC1 brake gear that Coopercraft got right - so if you've got spares, they'll do. 

[Flymo749]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's the one bit of the DC1 brake gear that Coopercraft got right - so if you've got spares, they'll do. 

 

As I have a couple of dozen of unmade Coopercraft wagon kits with DC1 brakes, I'm confident I have spares...

 

That said, I won't be using them.  There's something fundamentally wrong about the angle of the left-hand brake rod. 

 

If you look at this image of a built up Coopercraft N13 on the GWR.org website (http://www.gwr.org.uk/graham/cooplocomf.jpg) the rod points directly up at the middle of the wagon - almost as far back as the centre of the vee.

 

Compare that to figure 11 in GWW Appendix.  This is the "works" photo of the DC1 brakegear as fitted.  The left brake rod is at a much more shallow angle, looking to meet the solebar in the middle of the right-hand axleguard.  Ah - here's a photo of a similar arrangement which is online, albeit the modified DC1X variant ()

 

It's that ridiculous angle in the Coorpercraft brakes that has always offended my eye - once seen, it cannot be unseen.  And I've never seen a photo of a prototype wagon showing such an angle.  I'm guessing that it's lost in the mists of time as to what the original mould-maker at Coopercraft worked from.

 

Cheers

Paul

[Miss Prism]

Paul - the CC brake rod angles, and their orientation, and the pitch of the vee, were always a bit fictional. That is why previous DCI etchers (BB, Maso) chose to do a complete set.

 

[Compound2632]

@Flymo749, I see what you mean. I think the origin of Coopercraft's problem is that the pivot point sits too high - the V is not long enough. On Coopercraft wagons I've built with conventional brakes, I've replace the moulded V with my own plasticard representation, to at least get the pivot point to align with the tumbler on the Coopercraft conventional brake moulding. I can see that if I can get hold of the parts, wholesale reconstruction of the DC1 gear will be called for.

[Miss Prism]

 

[Compound2632]

@Miss Prism, that is the very sketch I used.

[Flymo749]

6 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

 

I have that drawing bookmarked ;-)

 

That said, I'll be etching the hole to 0.7mm.  I tried 0.8 on my trial etch of just the DC bits, and it was a bit too close to the edge when I broached the etched hole out to take 0.8mm rod.

 

I'll actually be drawing this directly off the GA to scale for the overall sizes.  I intend to make the upper part extend to the level of the bottom of a prototypical floor - you may have spotted similar in the way I etched the end handle "vees" ("ells"?) .  In that way, if a kit/scratchbuild has the floor in the correct place, the height is automatically set correctly.  For anything else, it can be cut down.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

[Flymo749]

5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Paul - the CC brake rod angles, and their orientation, and the pitch of the vee, were always a bit fictional. That is why previous DCI etchers (BB, Maso) chose to do a complete set.

 

 

Which is what I intend to do ;-)

 

I had a couple of random thoughts earlier today as to how to make the alignment easier when it comes to fit things together.  I need to have a doodle in my sketchbook...

 

Cheers

Paul

[Penrhos1920]

On 20/10/2020 at 07:41, Flymo749 said:

 

 

The key thing for me was to prove that I could fit the swan-neck between the face of the wheel and the axleguard in P4.  I can comfortably do that using compensated w-irons.  I'm less confident that I can do that with Bill Bedford sprung w-irons, as the bearing carriers are looking to occupy the same space.  I'll find out when I do the next test build, which will be when I've drawn and etched the brake rods, shoes, supports, etc, as a full unit.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

 

 

With Bill Bedford w-irons I cut a short section of the swan neck lever out and solder both bits to the fixed part of the w-iron.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

With Bill Bedford w-irons I cut a short section of the swan neck lever out and solder both bits to the fixed part of the w-iron.

 

That's a more sophisticated version of my plasticard bodge. But the problem is the non-availability of the etch, in 4 mm scale, which is why a replacement (and correct) etch will be welcome.

[eagleeyemark]

On 20/10/2020 at 23:22, Flymo749 said:

That said, I won't be using them.  There's something fundamentally wrong about the angle of the left-hand brake rod. 

 

If you look at this image of a built up Coopercraft N13 on the GWR.org website (http://www.gwr.org.uk/graham/cooplocomf.jpg) the rod points directly up at the middle of the wagon - almost as far back as the centre of the vee.

 

It's that ridiculous angle in the Coorpercraft brakes that has always offended my eye - once seen, it cannot be unseen.  And I've never seen a photo of a prototype wagon showing such an angle.  I'm guessing that it's lost in the mists of time as to what the original mould-maker at Coopercraft worked from.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

G,day Paul

 

all I can add Paul is that you're going to sell a lot of etchings. (Of DC1 brake gear I mean.......)

 

God you people have dirty minds.........

Oh, hang on....... 

 

Seriously though, I could do with a couple of dozen for my 1900-1905 project once the etch is up and running.

 

 

Mark

[t.s.meese]

On 19/10/2020 at 21:14, Flymo749 said:

 

 

 

 

Paul - is this etch available for purchase? I would love half a dozen or so...

[57xx]

Just bouncing this for @Flymo749...

[Flymo749]

Morning Ric, and others,

 

Thanks for the nudge on this.  The last twelve months has been interesting...

 

Not only has the country had the whole coronavirus experience, but during 2021, I've <deep breath> sold our house, moved to the other side of the country, been made redundant, lived in temporary housing with friends for four months (very comfortably, I must say), had all our belongings in storage units, and finally towards the end of the year bought a new house.

 

So I must admit that time for modelling hasn't been a priority...  That said, we're now properly settled, and this is toward the top of my priorities.  I also have a number of early GWR wagons to finish that I want to apply this to :-)

 

Now where did I put that CAD package???

 

Cheers

Paul