Why was there no 2nd Class until 3rd Class was abolished

[TravisM]

I was having a discussion with a friend recently, who’s from the USA and we both wondered why there was no 2nd Class until 3rd was abolished.  It just seemed a little weird to have a gap between 1st and 3rd?  I wonder if someone could explain this anomaly.  Thanks 

[Andy Kirkham]

Nicely explained here https://turniprail.blogspot.com/2011/11/rise-and-fall-of-second-class-passenger.html

[Michael Hodgson]

The boat trains on the Southern continued to offer second class after everybody else had dropped it in favour of 1st/3rd only, because they were offering a through service to Europe who still had 2nd class.  

 

Nowadays second class sounds pejorative and third class sounds even worse, so the marketing boys renamed it Standard Class

[Michael Hodgson]

It wasn't just the carriages, in the good old days the class system also applied to waiting rooms in the larger stations.  It  was said that the GWR had First, Second and Third Class Waiting Rooms, First and Second Class Ladies Waiting Rooms, However they did accept that there was such a thing as a third class lady!

[Nearholmer]

The blog post highlighted by Mr Kirkham seems to miss the boat train thing altogether, and I think it applied to the Eastern Region as well as the Southern Region, and that some Mk1 coaches were actually built (well, fitted out I guess) as 2nd Class. Did the London Midland Region offer 2nd Class on trains from St Pancras to Tilbury, I wonder? Was the Western Region the only not-2nd region for a time? 

[Steamport Southport]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It wasn't just the carriages, in the good old days the class system also applied to waiting rooms in the larger stations.  It  was said that the GWR had First, Second and Third Class Waiting Rooms, First and Second Class Ladies Waiting Rooms, However they did accept that there was such a thing as a third class lady!

 

They would have carried their own!

 

A "ladies waiting room" was a euphemism for lavatory....

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Edwin_m]

I've always assumed, without actually knowing for certain, that the reason 2nd was abolished and 3rd was kept was because of legislation that required 3rd class accommodation to be provided on each route.  

[Michael Hodgson]

My understanding was that the Midland Railway got a competitive edge on the lucrative Anglo-Scottish route by upgrading their third class stock to second class standards and the increased number of passengers diverting to them outweighed the loss of premium paid by second class passengers, who then had the choice of paying even more to go first or saving a few bob by downgrading.  With only two classes they didn't need to provide quite as much excess capacity in the form of coaches running empty to avoid the problem of casual passengers of finding their class of seat already all taken.  And the rest of the industry all followed suit.

 

I believe some German railways used to have a 4th class.

[DavidLong]

I still don't understand why they didn't simply redesignate third class as second class. If you have a nomenclature which uses 'first' then, by definition, the remaining alternative must be 'second'. This is similar to the marketing guff which describes modern second class as 'standard' whilst still retaining 'first'. A DTS will always be Driving Trailer Second to me!

Chiltern Railways don't have any first class but do have the 'Business Zone' which can be used on payment of a supplement to a normal standard class ticket which does keep some alignment in the nomenclature. Business/Standard fine but First/Standard, it ain't right I tell you!

 

David

[Nearholmer]

The trick pulled by some railways, notably the LBSCR, was to use Pullman to provide the highest class vehicles/service, Both nominally first and nominally third, and to have frankly fairly basic provisions for the three, then two, ordinary classes (famously no access to toilets, for instance). It was quite smart, because it meant they didn’t have to put up the capital or take all of the revenue risk on fancied-up rolling stock. I think this effectively gave five, certainly four, classes.

 

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

Didn't the Sligo, Leitrim and Northern Counties still have 3 classes until second class was abolished across Europe (not long before the railway closed)?

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

The Midland could not have called it second class as there was still a requirement for Parliamentary trains, I am pretty sure.

Anyway, until the other companies had abolished second class, the Midland could not have called its "other" class second because it would just have confused the passengers. To say nothing of causing mayhem for the RCH. The Cambrian abolished second class but then had to reinstate it for a time because so many of the companies it connected with had retained it.

And as has been stated, until well after Nationalisation there was still a second class on some services.

Jonathan

[Wickham Green too]

14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

........ and I think ..... that some Mk1 coaches were actually built (well, fitted out I guess) as 2nd Class.  .......

S3500-14 WERE built as Second Class and differ from the standard Open Thirds - as they would have been at the time - by having a door in one of the centre seating bays rather than a cross passage ( hence more legroom ) and three a-side seating ....... apart from the centre doors, the same bodyshell as RSOs 1000-13..

[62613]

I think the LNER built some 2nd class coaches for the "Hook Continental" set in 1937

[Bucoops]

5 minutes ago, 62613 said:

I think the LNER built some 2nd class coaches for the "Hook Continental" set in 1937

 

As well as that, some of the GE "Shorties" were 2nd class - D141 was Third Class, D141A 2nd. Eventually they were reclassified as 3rds.

[lmsforever]

I went on a boat train from Harwich to Liverpool Street in the late sixties and the stock was most certainly below 3rd class ,the compartment doors did not shut properly and the loo in our coach was filthy and had a sticking door. Our coach was not the only bad coach of a ten coach train only three coaches were just acceptable plus the 31 on front was in a bad  condition.Second class became acceptable over the years as many people could not afford 1st but some pre grouping companies notably in Lancs did try to provide reasonable accommodation but they soon went downhill after grouping .I think when you read of the so called  seats in modern stock the spirit of 3rd class lives on.

[Wickham Green too]

13 hours ago, lmsforever said:

... I think when you read of the so called  seats in modern stock the spirit of 3rd class lives on.

My backside can confirm that ........... though not in the fourth class stock where you have to stand in order to travel in the direction you're facing. ☹️

[Artless Bodger]

On 31/08/2020 at 10:17, Michael Hodgson said:

I believe some German railways used to have a 4th class.

If the Fleischmann models are to be believed, Prussian (KPEV) had 4, carriage bodies coloured differently, so composites were 2 colours. Iirc, first blue, second green, third brown, fourth grey. The blue / green distinction lasted into DB days and catering vehicles were wine red - colourful trains!

[Talltim]

On 31/08/2020 at 10:36, DavidLong said:

I still don't understand why they didn't simply redesignate third class as second class. If you have a nomenclature which uses 'first' then, by definition, the remaining alternative must be 'second'. This is similar to the marketing guff which describes modern second class as 'standard' whilst still retaining 'first'. A DTS will always be Driving Trailer Second to me!

Chiltern Railways don't have any first class but do have the 'Business Zone' which can be used on payment of a supplement to a normal standard class ticket which does keep some alignment in the nomenclature. Business/Standard fine but First/Standard, it ain't right I tell you!

 

David

Presumably while the legislation that requird 3rd class was in force, they couldn't rename it, even if the actual standard of accomodation remained the same.

[Michael Hodgson]

25 minutes ago, Talltim said:

Presumably while the legislation that requird 3rd class was in force, they couldn't rename it, even if the actual standard of accomodation remained the same.

Did legislation actually require the provision of third class ??

 

I thought the requirement was at least one train a day and that the fare was 1d a mile.  Legislation required passenger trains to have continuous brakes, and perhaps the communication cord, so the Liverpool and Manchester 4-wheel open wagon wasn't an option, and obviously the companies took the law as requiring only the most basic provision, but would it need to be as good even as Third Class (which was a division in society, but probably not in law). 

 

Some companies deliberately didn't offer 3rd on the most convenient trains, and could get away therefore with charging more than statutory fares on the services people actually wanted to use.  However if there's a train running anyway for the gentry and their servants, you might do better overall by catering for the lower orders too.

[RichardT]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Did legislation actually require the provision of third class ??

 

I thought the requirement was at least one train a day and that the fare was 1d a mile. 

Yes, the legislation (The Regulation of Railways Act 1844, now entirely repealed) specified third class provision.

 

See https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1844/act/85/enacted/en/print.html for the full text (Irish website but the Act was a UK-wide Act, and of course the whole island of Ireland was part of the UK in 1844)

 

or

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=58 for a summary.

 

RichardT

Edited February 15, 2023 by RichardT
Adding link

[Artless Bodger]

30 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

However if there's a train running anyway for the gentry and their servants, you might do better overall by catering for the lower orders too.

The servants probably travelled 3rd if not required en-route. Head Gardener remembers a Scottish relative, a well to do, batchelor, surgeon, who occasionally came south to visit, he travelled first but his man-servant / valet or whatever his role was travelled 3rd / 2nd. That was in the late 50s, early 60s.

[Michael Hodgson]

19 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

The servants probably travelled 3rd if not required en-route. Head Gardener remembers a Scottish relative, a well to do, batchelor, surgeon, who occasionally came south to visit, he travelled first but his man-servant / valet or whatever his role was travelled 3rd / 2nd. That was in the late 50s, early 60s.

I think that woud be correct, but I assume one left the Head Gardener and his underlings at one's country pile (the garden still needs weeding in one's absence) and only took indoor servants like ladies' maids and valets when one went was staying in Town.  A butler probably also stayed put with many of the other staff to look after the property.  A valet might be needed en route if there was a "family saloon" attached to the train in the Victorian era, but I don't know whether they even needed tickets if you provided your own private coach.  Later on of course, one didn't need to use the railway at all as one's chauffeur drove the Rolls and there were fewer servants anyway.

[Artless Bodger]

Sorry, in a world of my own here - Head Gardener is my forum term for my wife - I dont think swmbo etc would go down too well - but she is definitely the head gardener here, I'm just the odd job person. 

 

Agreed about the staff, and family saloons, but I doubt if there were family saloons from Victoria to Maidstone in the 1950s / 60s. I think the uncle (who was said to have been a naval surgeon at the battle of Jutland) had a female house keeper and a male servant (valet?). The man travelled down from Scotland - apparently had to find his own lunch in Maidstone while Uncle was entertained at the house, Head Gardener's family definitely did not have servants, he was a bit unaquainted with the realities of family life. 

[adb968008]

I guess its not that different to airlines.

In the last 2 decades “business class” has declined, in favour of more First, or more economy, and occasionally a marginally better “economy plus”.

 

If the only difference between First and 2nd is the quality of the seat, then the actual cost of providing it is virtually no different to 1st, but earns less revenue.

 

I think were seeing similar in model railways where we have rtr DCC ready, Dcc fitted and DCC Sound… increasingly were seeing less DCC fitted… people either want it or they dont, but the time cost of fitting a dcc chip vs a sound chip is negliable… so may as well do the higher revenue / margin one, and the lower margin / higher volume one, cut out the low margin / low volume one.

 

Middle of the road things tend to wane.. thats why you maybe better off in a lower class or an upper class and skip the middle class.

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by adb968008