The South Yorkshireman

[Flying Pig]

My father's family moved to Penistone in 1945 and he recalls travelling on the South Yorkshireman some time in the late 1940s.  Wikipedia tells me that as a named train it dates from 1948, but it seems to have its ultimate origin as a joint enterprise between the L&YR and the GCR (as mentioned in this article).  Does anyone know if a similar through train or carriages ran during the grouping period?  It competed of course with through carriages to Kings Cross from the GN side of Bradford Exchange via Wakefield, which would make less commercial sense after 1923.

[slilley]

Interesting as Dave Peel in his book " Locomotive Headboards the Complete Story" says something slightly different.It started on 31 May 1948 running between Bradford Exchange and Marylebone via Huddersfield and Halifax.  The first title to be conferred by BR on a new service. It ended on 2nd May 1960. Peel says this was a replacement for " The Yorkshireman" which ran pre-war between Bradford Exchange and St Pancras.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, slilley said:

Peel says this was a replacement for " The Yorkshireman" which ran pre-war between Bradford Exchange and St Pancras

 

Thanks.  Does Peel give any further information about "The Yorkshireman"? It doesn't sound likely that it ran via Huddersfield and Penistone.

 

Wikipedia also mentions The White Rose as a BR train running from Bradford Exchange to St Pancras via Leeds in the BR era, but this would have had to use former LNER lines to Leeds.

[slilley]

5 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Thanks.  Does Peel give any further information about "The Yorkshireman"? It doesn't sound likely that it ran via Huddersfield and Penistone.

 

Wikipedia also mentions The White Rose as a BR train running from Bradford Exchange to St Pancras via Leeds in the BR era, but this would have had to use former LNER lines to Leeds.

No mention of The Yorkshireman in Peel's book. Peel says  The White Rose was a Kings Cross to Leeds and Bradford Exchange service started on 23 May 1949. The Bradford portion joined the rear of the Leeds train at Wakefield. 

[Flying Pig]

24 minutes ago, slilley said:

The White Rose was a Kings Cross to Leeds and Bradford Exchange service started on 23 May 1949. The Bradford portion joined the rear of the Leeds train at Wakefield. 

 

I'm sure I should have known that and it makes more sense than a third route to Bradford.  The service itself was long established - presumably back to GNR days as it used their lines throughout. 

[LNER4479]

Hi,

 

Not titled the 'South Yorkshireman' as such but one of the pre-war LNER Manchester-Marylebone workings did convey a through LMS coach for Halifax that was detached / added at either Penistone or Sheffield Victoria. That sounds like a straight extrapolation of the pre-grouping L&Y / GCR arrangement.

 

There's a bit of information about such workings in the Banks / Carter LNER coach formations book, including a picture of the evening train heading north out of the London suburbs. Although a little indistinct, once pointed out you can see the LMS coach at the far end of six pristine Gresley teak coaches - must have been quite a sight.

[60021 Pen-y-Ghent]

Railway Memories no 4, Bradford (Alan Whitaker & Brian Myland) has a mention of a 1946 LNER service from Bradford Exchange to Marylebone (2 up and 4 down daily) but no reference to route or for what other years. Maybe the forerunner of the South Yorkshireman.  Guesswork says Halifax, Huddersfield, Penistone, Sheffield Victoria is not beyond the realms of possibility.

[charliepetty]

8 hours ago, 60021 Pen-y-Ghent said:

Railway Memories no 4, Bradford (Alan Whitaker & Brian Myland) has a mention of a 1946 LNER service from Bradford Exchange to Marylebone (2 up and 4 down daily) but no reference to route or for what other years. Maybe the forerunner of the South Yorkshireman.  Guesswork says Halifax, Huddersfield, Penistone, Sheffield Victoria is not beyond the realms of possibility.

That is correct, Charlie

[robertcwp]

In the summer of 1939, and for many years prior to that, there were two trains a day between Marylebone and Bradford and return. Like much else on the GC, they fell by the wayside during the war. There was a brief attempt to revive them in 1946 but the coal crisis in the severe winter of 1946-7 put paid to that. The South Yorkshireman was just a kind of reinstatement of the morning up and evening down trains, albeit that the down working left much earlier than it had done pre-war as journey times were increased significantly. Pre-war, the down evening train had taken approximately what became the down Master Cutler path. 

 

I don't know whether those trains ran via Halifax. When the South Yorkshireman began, it did not, running instead via Cleckheaton. It later switched to running via Halifax.

[SP Steve]

On 31/08/2020 at 11:35, Flying Pig said:

 

Thanks.  Does Peel give any further information about "The Yorkshireman"? It doesn't sound likely that it ran via Huddersfield and Penistone.

 

Wikipedia also mentions The White Rose as a BR train running from Bradford Exchange to St Pancras via Leeds in the BR era, but this would have had to use former LNER lines to Leeds.

 

According to Cecil J Allen in his "Titled Trains Of Great Britain" dated 1947;

 

"Meantime the L.M.S.R, in March 1925, had put on a train which shortly after was to receive the title of the "Yorkshireman". It was an entirely new service between Bradford and St. Pancras, not serving Leeds but using the route via Thornhill which had been made available when, in 1909, the former Midland Railway opened the connecting spur from Royston, on its mainline to Leeds, to Thornhill, on the then L&Y main line from Wakefield to Manchester. The original intention was to build a railway through Bradford which would enable Anglo-Scottish services to pass through that city, but it was never carried into effect.

 

A new route was made possible , however, between St. Pancras, Sheffield and Bradford Exchange, and of this the 9.10 a.m. from Bradford to St. Pancras, and the 4.55 p.m. from St. Pancras to Bradford, duly made use. A feature of the new service was that for the first time the L.M.S.R made up a train composed entirely of open vestibuled stock - third brake, third, first, kitchen car, two thirds and brake third, seven vehicles in all. Later first and third class brakes with compartments replaced the previous two end vehicles. The time allowed in each direction was 3 hours 10 minutes between St. Pancras and Sheffield with an intermediate stop at Leicester, and 4 1/4 hours between London and Bradford.

 

No further changes of note were made until the radical  acceleration of Midland services which took place in October 1937. Once again Sheffield was provided with a non-stop service to and from London, and the down "Yorkshireman" was one of the two trains selected for the experiment. The old G.C. and G.N. times were nearly reproduced with an allowance of 2 hours 52 minutes for the run; the starting time was altered to 5.10 p.m. from St. Pancras, and Sheffield was reached at 8.2 p.m.. Bradford was reached at 9.11 p.m., in a minute over 4 hours from London.

 

Once again, however, it did not last. By 1939, the down "Yorkshireman" was back to its old departure time, leaving St. Pancras at 4.55 p.m., taking 106 minutes to a stop at Leicester, 3 hours 5 minutes to Sheffield, and as much as 4 hours 20 minutes to Bradford. In the up direction it was leaving Bradford at 9.5 a.m. and Sheffield at 10.13 a.m., making an additional call at Chesterfield and running from there to London by way of Nottingham, with a mile-a-minute run in 123 minutes over the final 123.5 miles to St. Pancras, reached at 1.21 p.m. Despite a journey of 205.5 miles as compared with 198.8 miles in the down direction and an extra stop, the up train therefore had the advantage of the down by 4 minutes.

 

The formation of about seven bogies remained unchanged, but Class "5XP" 4-6-0's had replaced the Midland compounds with which the "Yorkshireman" began its career. The train was withdrawn on the outbreak of war."

Edited September 1, 2020 by SP Steve

[SP Steve]

From the same title as above:

 

"In 1903, a new afternoon express for Sheffield appeared in the G.C.R. timetable. The starting time was fixed at 3.25 p.m., and with the help of the water troughs at Charwelton and Killamarsh, the train was booked to make the run of 164.7 mile non-stop in 3 hours 8 minutes. By 1904 this was cut to 2 hours 57 minutes and in 1905 to the fast time of 2 hours 50 minutes. This was the fastest schedule ever in force between Marylebone and Sheffield, and equalled the best bookings introduced at any time over the competing Midland and Great Northern routs. The train became known as the "Sheffield Special," though this name did not appear in the timetables or official literature. There was an up non-stop also at 8.50 a.m. from Sheffield to Marylebone.

 

At first a formation of three coaches, headed by a Robinson 4-4-0 locomotive, sufficed to carry the traffic. Later, when the Robinson Atlantics had come into use, the normal formation was four bogies, with an additional non-corridor coach which was slipped at Leicester, and worked from there through to Grimsby and Cleethorpes. In the course of time, the allowance to Sheffield was eased to 2 hours 57 minutes, at which it remained up to the First World War, and the Marylebone departure was altered to 3.15 p.m.

The main train continued from Sheffield to Manchester, slipping at Penistone a portion for Bradford, which consisted of a composite slip brake and a through coach from Bournemouth which had been brought to Sheffield immediately ahead on the Bournemouth - Newcastle through train.  The only other stop was at Guide Bridge, after which the "Sheffield Special" was worked round the southern outskirts of Manchester into Central station, where it was due at 7.25 p.m. in time to connect with the 7.30 p.m. to Liverpool.

 

During the First World War, the "Sheffield Special" continued to run, complete with its restaurant car, and at speeds little inferior to those during peacetime but with stops at Leicester and Penistone replacing the slip portions and with an additional stop at Nottingham. Sheffield was reached at 6.37 p.m. and Manchester at 8 p.m. After the war this arrangement continued and the express, still without any official name, settled down to a departure from Marylebone at 3.20 p.m.. The 103.1 miles to Leicester were run in 109 minutes; in the compass of this run came the 6 mile climb at 1 in 105 from Rickmansworth up to Amersham, a gruelling task for the engine. But the hardest task of all was reserved for the conclusion, in the tremendous pull from Sheffield up to the eastern portal of Woodhead tunnel. In the middle of the ascent came a stop at Penistone, where a through coach for Bradford was detached.

 

For many years the working of this express was entrusted to the highly efficient "Director" class 4-4-0's of Robinson's design, and it was on such workings they were seen at their best. It has been calculated that on this journey of 212 miles a locomotive requires to lift its train through and aggregate difference in level of no less than 2,900ft before Manchester is reached.

 

In L.N.E.R years standard coaching stock appeared on the train, and its normal formation was seven coaches, including the through L.M.S.R composite brake at the rear.The rest of the train from the engine backwards was usually third class brake, third corridor, third restaurant car, first class restaurant and kitchen car, composite and third brake; this made tare weight of 243 tons and a gross weight of about 260 tons. By now "B17" or "Sandringham" 3-cylinder 4-6-0's had replaced the "Directors". No up working ever ranked with the down train as the "Sheffield Special"; the nearest approach was probably the 2.15 p.m. from Manchester London Road, making the same stops from Guide Bridge, and due in Marylebone at 6.38p.m. Both trains were withdrawn on the outbreak of war in 1939, when almost the entire express service over the Great Central main line disappeared in a single day".